Chapter XXXVIII: Front Matter (38)

Mr. HODGE. No; so several other people came in on the elevator and this fellow who turned out to be Jack Ruby was right up against me and he turned around and he said, “Hello, there, Hodge, how are you getting along?” and shook hands, and I looked at him and I knew I knew him but it didn’t dawn on me who he was. I couldn’t think of his name although it had been 3 or 4 years since I’d seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. How had you known him in the past?

Mr. HODGE. Well, when he first got to Dallas, I guess, he took over his sister’s lounge, which is further down Ervay Street, and a lot of nights you know, he would come up there after he closed his place up, which would be 1 or 2 o’clock, you know, and I would still be cleaning up and he would visit, being down below me there, and he would ask me my opinions how to operate a bar and so forth and all.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had known him what--10 or 15 years?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, about that, but I hadn’t seen him in the last 4 or 5 years.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so you got on the elevator with the two detectives who were escorting you down and some other people got on and among the other people was a man you now identify as Jack Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and the next day--Sunday----

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute--let’s not get to that yet. So, he turns around and what did he say--did he address you or you address him?

Mr. HODGE. He addressed me.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you?

Mr. HODGE. He stuck out his hand and I took his hand and shook hands with him.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what was said?

Mr. HODGE. He said, “What are you doing up here?”

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you that?

Mr. HODGE. The very words, and I said, “They’ve got me arrested”--just like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You said, “They’ve got me arrested”?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I felt that that would be all of it--I didn’t want to tell him why or go into any details as to what I was doing up there because it wasn’t none of his business, and he said, “You’re kidding. You fellows don’t have him arrested, do you?”

Mr. HUBERT. Who did he say that to?

Mr. HODGE. To the two detectives. He said, “You fellows don’t have Hodge arrested, do you?” And, they just laughed--they didn’t answer back, and he turned around to me and he said, “What do you know about it?” And I said, “It’s a long story.” By that time he was at the main floor, so he gets off on the main floor and we go on to the basement and move my car and these two detectives escort me back up to Captain Fritz’ office. We went back in there, waded back through these TV cameras back into his office, and Mr. Baker--I didn’t even know it was Baker until today, and he called me and told me, he said, “Mr. Hodge, I’m the man that took you from Captain Fritz’ office up to the fourth floor and showed you the guns”, and when I looked at them, I said, “I’d never seen those guns before,” and so that was all of it and I left.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you moved your car and went on up with the same two detectives who brought you down, you went to the third floor--you went back to Captain Fritz’ office, and then you went to the fourth floor where the guns were?

Mr. HODGE. Baker took me up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you looked at the guns and you didn’t identify them. How did you get out?

Mr. HODGE. I just come back and got on the elevator and went on down in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody have to identify you to get out?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Baker come with you?

Mr. HODGE. I believe he did. He come back to the elevator and he got off, I think, on the--I’m not positive about that, but he could have gotten off on the third floor, and this FBI agent and I want to say his name is Wilson, but I’m not positive, who I had called that day and he had been down to the store and checked the books with me--he was on the elevator too and I spoke to him.

Mr. HUBERT. This was when you were going down to go home?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you left the police station?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I didn’t go home--I went to my store.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you left the police station?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I think I got to the store approximately 12:15. There was two FBI agents waiting there for me when I got there, and so they told me they wanted to see me, and we walked on into the bar, I mean, into the gunshop and they said, “Mr. Hodge,” and they showed me their badges and all that about themselves--identified themselves, and they said, “there’s an operator in Fort Smith, Arkansas that got an anonymous call this afternoon stating ‘If you want to know who killed the President, check with the manager of the Buckhorn Bar.’” I said, “That could be one of my bartenders or it could be he probably throwed some drunk out and he just wanted to be important and wanted to get back at the bartender,” and they said, “Well, don’t think nothin’ about it.” They said, “We got one call this afternoon, Mr. Hodge, from a woman that told us that her husband just confessed to killing the President,” and so that was that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of the FBI visit to you--to check out this call, you say?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; yes, that was their purpose, I guess. That’s what they said.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they ask you whether you knew Oswald?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, yes; they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever in fact seen Oswald?

Mr. HODGE. I have never seen him in my life that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you sold a gun to Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never sold a gun to Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. I think Ray’s Hardware sold that gun, so I’ve been told.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, when you saw Ruby on the elevator?

Mr. HODGE. It was right within 10 minutes, I’d say 10 minutes till 12 or 12 minutes to 12.

Mr. HUBERT. And he got off on the main floor?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went down one level further?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; we went on to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about an assembly room meeting where Oswald was first shown to all the press who congregated in the assembly room of the police department?

Mr. HODGE. That’s the first time I had been up there and the last time to Captain Fritz’ office--and I don’t know when I have ever been up to Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about this showing of Oswald to the newsmen assembled in the assembly room downstairs about this time?

Mr. HODGE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police seem to know Ruby, that is, the ones who were escorting you?

Mr. HODGE. They just laughed--that’s all that was said. They never answered him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he asked them, “Is it true that you’ve got him under arrest?”

Mr. HODGE. He said, “You fellows don’t have Hodge under arrest, do you?” and they just laughed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to catch the joke or understand or did he seem to believe that you were under arrest?

Mr. HODGE. Well, he was standing to my side and I didn’t turn around and look at him. I didn’t notice the expression on his face. When he looked across over to these detectives, they was over on the right-hand side and I was in the back--in the back of the elevator and it didn’t dawn on me who he was until the next day when I was out at Red Jackson’s.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean was the 24th?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; on Sunday. Yes--on Sunday, the following Sunday when Ruby is supposed to have shot Oswald, when this Congressman called and asked Mr. Jackson and said that Jack Ruby shot him, I said, “My God, that’s who rode the elevator down with me. I knew I knowed him but I didn’t recognize him” and I said, “I didn’t recognize him until now.”

Mr. HUBERT. All right--a couple more questions----

Mr. HODGE. Pardon me--that same Sunday that this had happened, that afternoon I had some friends from Waco come up and they were gun collectors and they had an auction out here and after I left Mr. Jackson I went by the auction and went back to the gunshop and they went with me and we were in the gunshop and there was two more FBI agents came in and we walked back to the back and they showed me a picture of a striptease girl that had worked for Jack Ruby and wanted to know if I knew her and if I knew her whereabouts and I had never seen the girl before, because I don’t visit those places, and I had never been in one of Jack Ruby’s places, because I’ve got my hands full tending to my own business, and also, they wanted to know if I ever seen Jack Ruby and Oswald together, and I’d never seen Jack Ruby for 4 years or longer.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, returning to your statement, which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, it appears that the third paragraph of that statement is completely at variance with what you have just testified to. That is to say, that paragraph indicates that he asked you “whether they had arrested you,” whereas your testimony is that you in a semiserious manner indicated to him that you were under arrest and he asked you whether you weren’t kidding and then turned to the police----

Mr. HODGE. No; he didn’t say, “Are you kidding.” Yes; he did--he said, “You’re kidding,” but I said it low, I didn’t want to go into detail why I was up there and it wasn’t none of his business and I knew I knew him but I didn’t know just who he was at the moment, and I just--I don’t know why you would say those things, but I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the point I’m trying to make is that this third paragraph is deficient in two ways: One is that it has him asking you whether you were under arrest, whereas, you, in fact, told him in the manner you have described, that you were under arrest, and then he asked you whether you were kidding or not, and you told him “No,” and he asked you what you had to do with it, and you said, “It’s a long, long story” and all of which is not in this paragraph, nor is there in this paragraph the portion about his turning to the police and asking them if it was true, and their laughing about it. That’s not in here either?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I told those agents just like I’ve told you.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand that, but in any case--all I’m trying to do is to reconcile Exhibit No. 1 with your testimony, and in order to do so I have to bring out that this third paragraph of Exhibit No. 1 and as it is here is incorrect and incomplete--both: is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the statement you have given us here is what is the truth and is what you say you did tell the FBI agents?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Prior to the beginning of your testimony, you had conversed with me a bit along the lines that I have questioned you about, and is it not a fact that all of the matter that we talked about prior to the beginning of this deposition has now been brought out in the course of the deposition? To put it another way, that we have not--that we did not discuss prior to the taking of this deposition anything which has not been covered in the deposition?

Mr. HODGE. I believe that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Because--if you can think of anything that we talked about that has not been put down in the record, I want to get it in. I can’t think of anything, but I’m asking you?

Mr. HODGE. Well, now, yesterday and today I called Captain Fritz and also Mr. Baker and they both promised to get the names of those two detectives that took me downstairs on that elevator and get them to verify the fact that----

Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby was there?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; that Jack Ruby was there, and that he said those words, and I didn’t recognize Jack Ruby on that elevator until the next day out at Mr. Jackson’s and when they said Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you did say to the FBI people when they interviewed you on the 24th that you had gone down on the elevator with two detectives and with Ruby? You told them that, although it doesn’t appear in this exhibit?

Mr. HODGE. Now, which is the 24th?

Mr. HUBERT. The 24th is Sunday.

Mr. HODGE. Yes; I told them that Sunday afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. You told them Sunday afternoon that you had gone down the elevator in the company of two detectives and Jack Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you told that to anyone else since?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, I’ve told it to several people--the detectives, Captain Fritz, and all of them, they knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from Captain Fritz about who those two men were?

Mr. HODGE. No; he hasn’t called me. He had Baker to call me and Baker told me, he said, “Mr. Hodge, now”----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s today--Baker called today?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; Baker called this morning. He said, “I’m the one that took you from Captain Fritz’ office up to the fourth floor and showed you the gun,” and he said, “I’ll find out who the two boys was that escorted you back down to the basement to move your car.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell Captain Fritz that you had gone down the elevator with Ruby and two detectives?

Mr. HODGE. I told him that day before yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean prior to that time?

Mr. HODGE. No; I don’t think I had. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had told the FBI people?

Mr. HODGE. I sure did. I told them the whole story. I said--I guess this is the same--is this the two that questioned me about the telephone call?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, sir. This is the interview by Agents Anderton and Hardin.

Mr. HODGE. I used to know practically all those agents down there--the FBI agents--when Murphy was there and the agent in charge before him, and I used to keep their file in my place.

Mr. HUBERT. These are the agents who interviewed you on Sunday, not on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; you see, that was Sunday afternoon after I found out--it dawned on me who Jack was--and it was about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, I’d say, when they came in the gunshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever interviewed thereafter, after Jack Ruby shot Oswald, by the Dallas police?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The only other interview you had was with the FBI?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right, but I told all those detectives with homicide, the different ones that have been in my place, and I repeated just what I’ve told you, that it was Jack Ruby that rode down on the elevator and asked me those questions.

Mr. HUBERT. And that there were two Dallas Police Department detectives with you and him, Ruby, on the elevator at the time?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You have told that to others?

Mr. HODGE. To numerous others.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you mention any names?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you spoke to Captain Fritz about it the other day, that was the first time you had talked to Captain Fritz about that aspect; is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?

Mr. HODGE. No. He was on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. But he said he would try to find out who those people were?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you’ve had a call from Baker and who identified himself as having escorted you to the fourth floor and Baker said he would try to find out who the other two men were and let you know, but he has not done so up until now; is that right?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it that suggested to you that you ought to have the names of those men?

Mr. HODGE. Well, it would verify that he did ride the elevator down with us and that the conversation did take place.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after you got the letter from Mr. Rankin asking you to appear here today that it occurred to you that you ought to have the names of those men so that you could tell me those names if I asked you about it; is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s when you called Captain Fritz just yesterday, Thursday, June the 25th?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right and he told me, he said, “I’ll tell you, I’ve got a bunch that works days and nights and I’ll have to question all of them, but I’ll find out which one it was.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you could recognize those men if you saw them?

Mr. HODGE. You know, I thought it was Potts and Baker, but they say Potts works burglary and theft, but they could have had some of the burglary and theft men over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Baker is the one that took you up on the fourth floor?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; that’s what he verified today.

Mr. HUBERT. But Baker was not one of the men who took you downstairs?

Mr. HODGE. I wouldn’t swear to it--of course, they may not want to come forth and tell it, you see, but there’s nothing to hide, and if it will help, I think that they should do it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you expect to hear from Captain Fritz still?

Mr. HODGE. I’m going to call him back and see what he’s found out, but they agreed to call me back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know what time you were going to appear here today?

Mr. HODGE. I told him today at 2:30--told Baker.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that’s all, and I thank you very much.

Mr. HODGE. I only hope this will be of some help to you. If you’re down that way on Ervay Street, stop by my gunshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you, I have depositions all tonight and tomorrow in the day and it’s very unlikely I’ll be able to do it.

Mr. HODGE. I have a lot of antique guns and modern guns too, although you may not be interested in them.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know much about guns. Frankly, I would like to say I would accept your invitation, but I know I am going to be busy tonight and tomorrow with these depositions.

Mr. HODGE. I’m not throwing myself no bouquets, but I have always cooperated with the FBI, and as I say, they fingerprinted me, they took my life history and everything and they turned their file over to me. I had several agents I was good friends to in the past, and you can find out by talking to two or three, and of course, they move them about, but you can find out that there were some criminals, you know, that would be in that bar, and I opened up this gunshop and it’s just around the corner from the bus station and these drifters come in and going through, and they will verify what I told you.

And, I’ll tell you--some people call you a stool pigeon and it looks to me like you can be a good citizen, but the courts won’t protect you on these things. This fellow that killed this man and woman out here--if you’ve got a minute?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HODGE. Well, Captain Fritz’ men came by with a shell, a Peters Wad Cutter, and that’s this man and woman that got killed a few days ago out here and it has no concern with this case, but anyway, I checked my book and I found where I sold that man a gun and a box of ammunition, and they couldn’t find nobody else that had that particular kind of ammunition, they said, so I called Captain Fritz and gave them that information and they went out and called me back in 2 hours and they said, “Boy, you’re just as right as rain,” and I give them a list of all the .45 automatics I had sold, and so they went out and picked up this bloody uniform and got a confession from him and he admitted everything and got the gun and the amount of ammunition that they found at the scene plus what was in the box, and so I cooperate fully with them, but you stick your neck out. Some of those characters--if this man gets out on bond, what’s to keep him from coming down there and killing me? But I believe it’s being a good citizen if you know anything, to come forth with it and tell it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything other than what you’ve said to me or anybody else that you would like to say about this matter?

Mr. HODGE. Everybody’s got an opinion and it’s talked around--of course--there’s pro and con, but they all seem to think that--I have heard different ones talking and they seem to think that there is a connection there between those two, Oswald and Ruby, and that probably Ruby was--I guess you know about him, that they found a bunch of money--about $10,000 in his apartment, and people talking say it’s payoff money, but I don’t know nothing. That’s the first time I’d seen that Jack Ruby in 4 or 5 years and it didn’t dawn on me who he was, and I just thought I’d just shut him up, and when he asked me that, I just said in a low voice, “They’ve got me arrested,” and he said, “Oh, you fellows don’t have Hodge arrested, do you?”

Mr. HUBERT. No; what I was trying to get at--is there anything you have not stated to anyone, any facts or knowledge that you have concerning Ruby or Oswald or the assassination of the President that you haven’t told anybody that you want to take advantage of this occasion to say it?

Mr. HODGE. If there is, I don’t recall what it is, because I’ve told you just straight down the middle of what had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I didn’t know what you were leading up to awhile ago and perhaps it was nothing at all, but as I say, if there’s anything you want to say, you could say it now, you know?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I would, but that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you, sir; very much.

Mr. HODGE. Thank you a lot. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DAVID L. JOHNSTON

The testimony of David L. Johnston was taken at 2 p.m. on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of David L. Johnston.

Mr. Johnston, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Johnston, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations, movements, and associates.

Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you have it?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The letter is rubber stamped June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. And you received it when?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It was received in the U.S. Post Office, Dallas, Tex., on June 23, and had to be forwarded to the Post Office at Richardson, Tex., where it was received on June 24, and I received the same on June 24, 1964 at 12:10 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission which you have probably complied with here, every witness has a right to a 3-day written notice before their deposition can be taken, counting from the date of the letter, but in any case the rules provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will waive that at this time, if it’s involved here; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you. Would you rise and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am David L. Johnston.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am 36; I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your address?

Mr. JOHNSTON. My residence address is 100 North Dorothy in Richardson, Tex. My office address is in the County Government Center, 1411 West Beltline Road, Richardson, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am the elected justice of the peace, precinct No. 2 of Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a lawyer too?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I am not an attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. What term are you serving?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am serving my second elected term, which expires December 31, 1966.

Mr. HUBERT. The term is for how long?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Four years.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been in that office for how long?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I took office January 1, 1959. Prior to that I was with the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department for 9½ years.

Mr. HUBERT. Under Sheriff Decker?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Under Sheriff Decker; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What are the general duties of the justice of the peace in Texas?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The justice of the peace in Texas has civil jurisdiction up to $200 in civil matters; has misdemeanor jurisdiction as provided by the statutes for criminal offenses of a misdemeanor nature in which the fine does not exceed $200 plus the costs. He is the acting coroner under our statutes. He is a magistrate. He can hold courts of inquiry, issue search warrants or any process relevant to a felonious act in the State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. How many such justices are there in Dallas County?

Mr. JOHNSTON. In Dallas County there are 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it based on geographical area division?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It is divided into precincts, but in criminal matters, the 10 have coextensive jurisdiction with the county and in some cases with the State. Our warrants of arrest, for instance, are valid anywhere in the State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you elected by the people of the precinct?

Mr. JOHNSTON. By the people of the precinct; yes, sir, and that’s by the precinct level.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s a geographical area?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to November 22, 1963, did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I have seen Jack Ruby, I did not know him personally--have never been introduced to him; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where had you seen him?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I’ve seen him in downtown Dallas. I saw him one night in front of the Vegas Club on Oaklawn. I have seen him around the courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. People have pointed him out to you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The night at the Vegas Club, an officer said, “That’s Jack Ruby.” That’s all I can tell you there. Like I said, I’ve never met the man--I had never met the man until Friday night, November 22, or the early morning of November 23.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was a character apparently that people would point out to a man of your standing, that is to say, as being a character in the Dallas area?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; this is possible. Like I say, I’m sure that there has been other occasions that I’ve seen the man. I just can’t recall them at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d or the 23d, at anytime when you did see him, you recognized the face and of course you recognized the name?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I didn’t recognize him as such. To clarify that, as stated in the report that I gave to the FBI--this is the card that Mr. Ruby handed to me after Mr. Oswald had been removed from the police detail room. He handed me this card and introduced himself to me as Jack Ruby. He was present in that room the whole time that Oswald was in the detail room, which was the late night of November 22 and the early morning of November 23, from approximately 11:30 p.m. until maybe 12:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the assembly room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; in the detail room or the assembly room of the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. It is also used as the showup room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; it’s used as the showup room and the showup screen was right behind where Oswald was standing and Ruby was standing--if this was the actual room, the showup room would be at my back now, which would be the south wall of this room. Oswald was standing in the aisleway here in front of the desk.

Mr. HUBERT. In front of the screen.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Ruby was in the same row back behind two tables with chairs in front of them. I was standing on the little podium with Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney of Dallas County, and a couple of the Dallas police officers and I can’t at this time recall who they were, but we were standing on the podium part and were about 10 feet from Oswald. Mr. Ruby was, I would say, from 18 to 22 feet out in front of us.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first notice him there?

Mr. JOHNSTON. When he came up and introduced himself to me.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had been removed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was after Oswald had been removed from the room. Chief Curry ordered him removed because the newspaper people started milling a little too much, which he told them he was going to do, and he removed him from the room.

Mr. HUBERT. But your thought was and is now that Oswald was in that room for approximately 30 or 40 minutes?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You said it was between 11:30 and 12:15?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; it was between 11:30 and 12:15, but I would say that they had Oswald in that room less than 10 minutes.

Everyone was in there and set up. Chief Curry came in and told them that they would have to remain still, that if they started milling or if they started moving he was going to remove the suspect, which when they did, he removed him.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the room prior to the time Oswald was brought in?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I would say probably 10 minutes, maybe 15.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe Ruby during the time that you were in the room prior to the time Oswald came in?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I can say that he was in the room because I was watching everyone that was in the room.

Mr. HUBERT. But he actually didn’t introduce himself until Oswald left?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Until Oswald had been removed; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing on a table or chair or something like that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I believe that at one time he was either on a chair or the table. When I first noticed the man he was standing on the floor, and I believe towards the last he was up either on a chair or on a table.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statement or make any kind of comment at all at any time?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Something like “It’s horrible, isn’t it horrible?” or something of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. That was to you yourself?

Mr. JOHNSTON. To me and to Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney of Dallas County.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had been removed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was after Oswald had been removed. He came up shortly after one of the newspaper media had just finished interviewing Mr. Henry Wade. He was standing behind that person during the interview and when he finished that was when he introduced himself, both to Henry Wade and to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he make any comment?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Just this--“It’s horrible” or “Isn’t this awful” or something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general demeanor or attitude?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I personally would say that the man had control of himself, that he did not seem to me that he was away out in space or anything like that; he was coherent.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; at that time I don’t think he was, other than this statement, as I said, that he made--“Isn’t it horrible, isn’t it terrible?”--something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge that to be a commonplace statement of the day--that everybody was saying?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I certainly would.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you the justice of peace that arraigned Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I arraigned Lee Harvey Oswald--let me give you the sequence of them--that’s the easiest thing to do. I brought the complete record and I have everything here. The first charge that was filed was for murder with malice of Officer J. D. Tippit of the Dallas Police Department in cause No. F-153, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald. This complaint was filed at 7:05 p.m. on the 22d day of November 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. By whom?

Mr. JOHNSTON. By Capt. J. W. Fritz, captain of the homicide bureau, Dallas Police Department, was accepted by W. F. Alexander who is William F. Alexander, an assistant criminal district attorney of Dallas County, Tex., which was passed over to me at 7:05 p.m. The actual complaint was signed at 7:04 p.m. and I arraigned Lee Harvey Oswald at 7:10 p.m. on November 22, 1963, advising him of his constitutional rights and that he had to make no statement at all, and that any statement he made may be used in evidence against him for the offense concerning which this affidavit was taken, and remanded the defendant to the custody of the sheriff of Dallas County, Tex., with no bond as capital offense.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your jurisdiction to do that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that occur?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was in Captain Fritz’ office of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Bill Alexander--William Alexander--an assistant district attorney; Captain Fritz--these are--if I can remember them--either two or three of the other homicide detectives; at least one Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, and which one I couldn’t say at this time because we were just all in and out of there, and I’m almost sure it was one of the FBI agents, and which one, I couldn’t say at this time because we were just all in and out of there, and I’m almost sure there was one of the FBI agents in the room and possibly a Secret Service agent.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been called specially for this arraignment or did you happen to be there?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I was first called to handle the issuance of the search warrant involving the residence at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you issue that search warrant?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; and not only did I issue the search warrant, I was requested by the officers to go with them and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander was in on that search also, which turned out to be the room in which Lee Harvey Oswald had been living on North Beckley. I was present when that search was made and also seizure of the things that were in his room.

Mr. HUBERT. Under Texas law is a man charged with murder required to be brought before a committing magistrate, such as you, right away?

Mr. JOHNSTON. This can be done immediately forthwith before the magistrate or a reasonable period of time--within a reasonable period of time of the filing.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurs at such time--at such a proceeding?

Mr. JOHNSTON. In this particular incident, the complaint--the affidavit--was read to the defendant, Lee Harvey Oswald, at which time I advised him that this was merely to appraise him of his constitutional rights and what he was charged with.

Mr. HUBERT. This was not a court proceeding?

Mr. JOHNSTON. This was not the examining trial; no, sir. It was not the examining trial.

Mr. HUBERT. It did not call for a plea?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It required no pleadings whatsoever; no, sir. This was merely to appraise him of what he was charged with and to advise him of his constitutional rights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment upon that at all?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; but I can’t recall what it was. At this particular time he made some remark. Also at the second arraignment for the murder of President Kennedy, when he was brought through the door at this time, he said, “Well, I guess this is the trial,” was the statement that he made then, but I don’t remember what he said at the arraignment regarding Officer Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s pass to the arraignment concerning President Kennedy, and I wish you would dictate into the record the same information you did as to the first one.

Mr. JOHNSTON. All right, sir. This was the arraignment of Lee Harvey Oswald for the murder with malice of John F. Kennedy, cause No. F-154, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald. The complaint was filed at 11:25 p.m., was accepted by me at 11:26 p.m. It was filed at approximately 11:25 p.m. by Capt. J. W. Fritz, homicide bureau of the Dallas Police Department, and was accepted by Henry Wade, criminal district attorney, Dallas County, Tex., and was docketed as cause No. 154, F-154 at 11:26 p.m.

Shortly after this is when the defendant was taken to the detail room or the assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened at this arraignment--was it the same as before?

Mr. JOHNSTON. He was not arraigned at this time. He was then arraigned after he was removed to the detail room where the press was allowed to have their first interview with the defendant, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Subsequently in a conference between Captain Fritz, Mr. Wade, and two or three of his assistants and myself, and Chief Curry--it was decided to go ahead and arraign him and that arraignment was held at 1:35 a.m., November 23, 1963, in the identification bureau of the Dallas Police Department, and once again I appraised him of his constitutional rights, read the affidavit, and advised him again that I remanded him to the custody of the sheriff, Dallas County, denying bond as capital offense. He was also told at both of these instances that he would be given the right to contact an attorney of his choice.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask this at either of these occasions?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; that was one of the first things he said--that he wanted this man from New York of the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes [spelling] A-b-t; however that’s pronounced. He said he would like to have this gentleman and I told Oswald when he made that statement that he would be given the opportunity to contact the attorney of his choice.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose duty was it to see that he was given that opportunity?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The telephone would be made available to him to make any call he wished to make and that would have been advanced to him through the normal routine: He possibly could have been given this permission at the city jail and also had he ever made it to the county jail, here again he would have been given the opportunity to contact a lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. In any event, you made it clear to him that he had a right to contact a lawyer?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That he had a right to be represented by counsel, that he had the right to make a telephone call to contact any person of his choice, and the assault to murder complaint, alleging the assault to murder of John B. Connally in cause No. F-155, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald, this complaint was filed by Lt. Robert E. McKinney of the forgery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. This complaint was filed in my office at Richardson, Tex., at 6:15 p.m., on November 23, 1963, and the defendant was not arraigned in this case because he was already being held for two capital offenses. He would have been arraigned in this probably the following week had he lived.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how Ruby was dressed at the time you saw him?

Mr. JOHNSTON. As well as I can remember, the only thing I can say is a white shirt with a tie and a dark suit.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat on?

Mr. JOHNSTON. He either had the overcoat on or he had it over his arm. He did have an overcoat on.

Mr. HUBERT. What color was it?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I would say dark, is the best I can remember. He had on a hat also.

Mr. HUBERT. The time you spoke to Ruby was, as you have indicated, after Oswald had been taken from the assembly room and then Ruby came up and introduced himself to you and to Wade. Did you have any conversation with him at all?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I don’t remember exactly what was said by myself or Ruby, but I do remember that it closed with--when he had given me his card and he says, “Come by and see me sometime at the club”, and that was the closing statement that was made to me by Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter see him?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; only, I saw the incident of the shooting on the television, but I could not identify the man from the television picture.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him, did he have any kind of identification tag on?

Mr. JOHNSTON. A tag or anything; no, sir. There was nothing visible that I saw. Now, if I remember correctly, as I say, he may have had his overcoat over his arm--one arm or the other. He possibly could have had something on that overcoat, but I do not recall seeing any type of identification tag or an ID holder or anything hanging down that would show that he was a member of the press or an officer or anything else.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, he handed you his card and you said that at the time, he introduced himself to you and Mr. Wade. You have handed me here a 4-page document on yellow legal-sized paper, lined, did you mean for me to have this?

Mr. JOHNSTON. You can read that if you want to--that’s the only copy I have--no; I believe I do have a copy of that. I have furnished the FBI with a copy of this also. Here is a copy of it which I will be glad to give you and that’s a photostatic copy made by me.

This is my report that I wrote up starting on Monday morning after all of these incidents had occurred. If I might answer--you also asked me if I was called--I was asked by Assistant District Attorney William Alexander when we were leaving the property on North Beckley to please come on to Captain Fritz’ office at the Dallas Police Department for the purpose of being present to be able to accept a complaint and issue warrant, which was done.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that request made of you? I think the arraignment was at 7:05?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; and I think I could tell you approximately the time he asked me to, if I can find the time I have written in here when it was filed. I would say it was around 5 o’clock in the afternoon when he asked me--this search warrant was filed at 3:55 p.m. on November 22, and I also have a copy which I will give you of the officers’ names who I personally know were involved in the investigation, officers whom I had contact with both at the Dallas Police Department and at the sheriff’s office; to clear this up also, about how I came into this thing--my first contact--I was attending the luncheon, when one of the sergeants of the Dallas Police Department came to my table and asked me to please come with him, and I was then informed of what had happened, and was asked to go immediately to Parkland Hospital, and upon arriving there found Judge Theron Ward, the justice of the peace, Precinct 3, from Garland, handling the inquest on President Kennedy. They did not know Judge Ward and that’s the reason they had called me, not knowing he was already there.

Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me a photostatic copy of the document I referred to a moment ago as being a 4-page document on yellow, legal-sized lined pads, and you are retaining the original, but have furnished me with a photostatic copy of it.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have marked that document for identification with this deposition as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of David L. Johnston,” and I have signed my name. That’s on the left margin of the first page, and I have placed my initials in the right lower corner of the second, third, and fourth pages. I notice that on the third page in the middle, there is a reproduction of a Carousel Club card and I state for the record that I have examined the original card which is attached to the third page loosely, and that the picture on the photostatic copy is identical, except that it doesn’t show the color, the vertical lines being in sort of an orange color.

Mr. JOHNSTON. This is the card that was handed to me also, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, as I understand it--that was the card that was handed to you by Jack Ruby, and you have testified about that a little while ago. You also handed me a photostatic copy of another document which I have marked for identification; “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of David L. Johnston,” and I have placed my name under that on the left margin and on the second page in the lower right-hand corner I have placed my initials. I see that this is a photostatic copy, because I am examining it with the original, the original being on yellow legal-sized lined paper, and I compare them and state for the record that the photostatic copy which I have marked for identification is identical With the original which I now return to you.

Now, you stated that Exhibit No. 2 is a list of the people you know who had something to do with the examination in causes F-153, 154, and 155, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That’s correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain this information?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Part of these I took at the actual time, which was on November 22 and November 23. Some of them I had to obtain from the reports.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the names?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The names of the officers; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any statements from these people?

Mr. JOHNSTON. From the officers--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You just made up a list of people?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; now some of these officers, of course, I have talked with in regard to this at the time the investigation was being made.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this part of your function as a justice of the peace, to do this?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are official records, I take it?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you say you talked to Ruby altogether on this occasion on the 22d?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Three to five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After that you didn’t see him any more?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; of course, I left the Dallas Police Department to go to my residence somewhere between 4 and 5 a.m. on the morning of November 23 and did not return to the Dallas police station at any subsequent period from then until the following Tuesday or Wednesday before I returned. I was called about an hour after the shooting of Oswald and put on standby notice, pending whether they could contact Judge Pierce McBride, justice of the peace, precinct 1, place 2 of Dallas County or Judge Davis, precinct 1, place 1. This man was in custody at the time he was shot, and under our rules of criminal procedure in the State of Texas, a prisoner dying while in custody--you are supposed to first try to contact the justice of the peace in whose precinct that particular death occurs. This is because he was incarcerated or in custody, and they subsequently did contact Judge McBride, who handled the inquest on Lee Harvey Oswald. I was on standby notice to handle this, but in this particular instance, they did get hold of Judge McBride.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the press interview of Oswald in the assembly room at which you were present came to an end because the press seemed to be violating the condition which Chief Curry had laid down for the interview?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir. Not drastically, but there was enough movement--my sincere feeling in this thing is that Chief Curry did everything that was humanly possible to do to protect Oswald, that his statement to the press before Oswald was brought in--to “get in position, stay there, do not move, do not try to stand up, when you do I’m going to remove him,” and as soon as this started--the milling got a little bit too much--I mean--he didn’t call their hand--there were a bunch of them kneeling and that’s a pretty uncomfortable position and he held some of them there for a pretty good while before they brought Oswald in, but when they started moving and attempting to stand up, which I think was just merely to stretch their legs and so forth, he took Mr. Oswald immediately out of that detail room.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any security precautions were observed in searching or “frisking” as the phrase is, the people who were allowed in the assembly room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; to my knowledge there was none of that went on. However, there were at least--in that room, there were at least 50 or 60 officers.

Mr. HUBERT. And how many newspapermen?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Federal agents, local police officers, possibly one or two deputy sheriffs, the district attorney, two of his assistants, there were two or three private attorneys--private practicing attorneys that were in that room, there were three or four of the police department stenographers that were in that room, and possibly other than the press there may have been one or two other citizens--couldn’t say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. How many were present?