Chapter III: Front Matter (3)

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I feel he always wanted to be successful and he was capable, and always trying to meet the right type of people, where he could either be friendly or have knowledge to a promotion. Let’s put it that way. To him a promotion was the greatest thing in his life, something to have exclusive that was his, with his experience in selling items and promoting items, or promoting an individual, where he would get some profit out of it, that was his ambition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he interested in the promotion aside from making money, was he interested in any notoriety that he might get out of it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was not the type, I am trying to tell you. Jack was not the notorious type of a person. Because of all the fights that he had, he never came home and told us about one. We had to hear it from his friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do anything, did he promote anything which would have also involved the promotion of himself?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Explain that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, for example, in the promotion of this Little Daddy, would it have become known that, generally known that, this was Jack’s boy? Would Jack have received some recognition for that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Possibly. It is possible naturally being in the entertainment field and Jack was learning more and more about the entertainment field and the prospects of promotion in another form, naturally he would have to be recognized as he is the one who found Sugar Daddy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other thing that he was promoting, any products that he was promoting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; some vitamin deal down there. He mailed us a sample that somebody was making something down there but I couldn’t see it. He mailed me a sample of that, too, I believe. Somebody was making a vitamin pill down there that Jack got ahold of and he became the distributor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted you to sell them. You started out to tell us about the twistboard.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how Jack contacted you on the twistboard. Tell us what happened.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted me to call on the department stores on the road. He says that is where they sell best. I would make about $3 a dozen which is a good deal, because if they start selling the reorders would come in automatically, the missionary work is hard, when you are making $3 a dozen on an item that sells for $1.69 that is a pretty good profit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you thought Jack’s idea as far as pricing was concerned, he was talking about selling them for $1.69?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Retail, I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Retail for somewhere less than $2?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you would have made?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Three dollars a dozen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Three dollars a dozen, which would have been how much on each item?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A quarter on each item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; for a salesman, yes; that is about right. Especially for an item like that, I don’t think it costs very much to make, to be honest with you. Two pieces of board, and some kind of a gimmick in the center in between.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What was your response to that one?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I hadn’t had a chance to take it out. It was shortly before the incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you anything else in connection with it besides the board?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Literature. I think I got some literature if I can find it. I have got the board home, that I can show you, with the original wrapper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you to advertise in any newspapers or anything for him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t remember that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your intention to try to sell these and promote them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I didn’t ask him for the board. He just mailed it to me with all the literature after he spoke to me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he speak to you about it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember, several times, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he going to have a company name or anything that he was going to use?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it called?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Spartan; you see his nickname is “Sparky.” He was going to call it Spartan Manufacturing and Promotional.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get the nickname “Sparky”?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Fast, aggressive, quick thinker, always on the ball, you know, I imagine that is where he got the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t really know of your own knowledge?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but how else would a fellow get a name “Sparky”. Like a sparkplug, fast, you know, lightning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have occasion to call you in the fall of last year before November 22 for any reason other than about the twistboard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; union trouble.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he call you about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember the exact date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he said to you and what you said to him about the union trouble.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t give you the exact words but I will come close to it. He wanted me to contact some people in Chicago who had connections with AGVA in New York, the president. I didn’t know anybody so I started calling people. I called everybody in Chicago I knew. One of the fellows I called was Jack Yanover. Jack Yanover owns the Dream Bar at 1312 South Cicero Avenue, a striptease joint.

Jack and I are old friends for many years, in fact, he is one of the oldest friends I have. Jack told me two things, Jack Yanover. First, my brother Jack was looking for girls down there, was only going to pay them $150 a week for 6 weeks’ work. So Jack Yanover explained to me, he says, “You cannot get a girl to go down to Dallas for 6 weeks’ work for $150 a week and she will have to pay her own expenses, that is out. They won’t do it.” And the second problem was with the union. Jack Yanover told me that the people in Chicago, the agents, the union agents, had no connection with the agents in Dallas. It would have to come from New York, and Joey Adams, I think, is one of the big men in the organization, the entertainer Joey Adams, president. So I tried to call some people in Chicago who could get to Joey Adams or anybody else in the New York deal. I didn’t succeed, let’s put it that way. I remember now. We didn’t succeed. It was just one of those things that didn’t work out, and if I am not mistaken I think Jack tried to call some of the other boys in Chicago, one bail bondsman, I can’t think of his name, and then he tried to call Lenny Patrick, I believe, Lenny Patrick, and then I think he tried to call somebody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a fellow named Barney Baker?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Baker?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Baker, did you ever hear of him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How does Jack know Lenny Patrick?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Everybody knows Lenny Patrick. When you go to school you know everybody in a school, grade school or even high school, and if you lived on the west side you know Lenny Patrick because Lenny Patrick, you walk into a delicatessen or into a poolroom, “Hi, Lenny,” “Hi, Jack,” that is how you know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Lenny Patrick do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know what he does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he make an honest living?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think gambling is his biggest racket. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a fellow in New York by the name of Frank Carbonaro?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Carbonaro. He is the guy who used to ship my merchandise for me when I was in business for myself. 811 East 242d Street, Bronx 70, N.Y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his connection with the shipping?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He bought my merchandise for me and he shipped it to me for my customers. You see New York is the ribbon market of the world. You can’t get the stuff anywhere else than in New York, certain items, and Frankie took care of those things for me. I paid him a commission on every order. That is how it worked out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Morris Paper Mill Co., did you have some dealings with them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; all the time. I buy paper boxes from them, Morris, Ill., florist boxes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything else that Jack called you about before November 22 of last year?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you would give me an inkling I will give you an answer. I won’t lie to you because I have nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you about Eva?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he was having a little trouble with Eva, I think. She was sick. Yes. Eva was sick and going for an operation, so I mailed her a check for $100, make her feel better. I mailed it to the club. So Jack would give it to Eva so she would have $100 to help her with the operation. That was it, and he loved me for it. He said that was wonderful. He said, she hasn’t been up here for many years and she thought that we had completely ignored her. So he thought by doing that she felt closer to the family, that we were thinking of her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about Eva?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always, always.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Whenever he called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Last fall, did he ever make any special telephone calls about her?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t think of anything special.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s focus again on the twistboard. Was Jack planning to manufacture the twistboard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; somebody down there was making it for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any other people he talked to about the twistboard in connection with promoting it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was going to call some other people. I don’t remember who the names were. I wasn’t too much concerned because frankly, I do not have enough time to donate to an item that is not relating to my business because when you walk into a department store, you can be tied up for 2 solid hours selling something to a buyer if you find him, and 2 hours a day is a lot of my time when I am on the road trying to call on my own customers. So, therefore, I wasn’t too much interested, that is my answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you the names of any other people who were associated with him in the twistboard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t think of the name. There is somebody down there, yes, but I don’t know who he is. I wasn’t concerned, I was only interested in Jack. If Jack wanted to promote it I was going to try to find him some other fellows to help with selling it. I never got any chance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many days a week do you work?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am on the road 240 days a year when I am working right, you know, when I get started right, before November 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You work Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you on November 22, the day the President was shot?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I happened to be in Chicago. I was at the Harry Eichenbaum’s store, Merrill Manufacturing Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there, at what time of the day?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At the moment when the President got assassinated. When the people heard it on the radio, I didn’t believe it, nobody believed it. Who could believe a thing like that? And then all of a sudden everything seemed to quiet down, the whole area, and then it finally leaked out that it was the truth. My God, you could know it is like an atomic bomb hit you. It is just one of those things. We all loved this guy. He was a real guy. He was a friend of our people, too, by the way, which is important to us in America.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened, what did you do after you learned the President was shot?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What was there to be done, nothing. Nobody could work. Everything seemed to stand still. I finished my business, what I had to do, I picked up some stuff downtown, I think--yes, I remember, I went out to the Flavor Candy Co. and picked up a couple of cases of candy because the girl told me about it the other day, she said, “Remember you were here on that Friday, November 22.” She knew all about the family. She knows the family, and I says, “Was I here that day?” She says, “Yes. That is the last time we saw you.” I didn’t even remember where I was that day. I mean the thing hits you like a shock. It just isn’t right, it isn’t normal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I probably went home. I probably did. I don’t know, because I was home that Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is living with you at your house?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marion Carroll, my sister, and Ann Volpert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Marion and Ann normally work on Fridays? Were they both employed?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there would be nobody home during the day.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have another sister, is that right, Eileen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eileen is married and lives about 2 miles west from where we do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she work?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; she has two little girls she has to take care of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what happened when you got home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Friday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you talked to and so forth?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened? Let’s try to take this, if we can, chronologically. What happened when you walked in the door?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t remember that particular incident. You mean what time I got home and what happened? I don’t remember. I don’t even remember who was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the first thing you remember doing when you were home that evening or afternoon?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The family was--our family couldn’t believe it because it happened in Dallas. It was a bad rap for the city of Dallas and we having there members of our family down there, sort of like a black mark; you know, it sort of gets you. How come of all the places, in Dallas? You know. Then we got a call. Would you mind me telling you about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to know about that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At 9 o’clock Friday night we got a call from Jack. He felt very, very bad about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he talk to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, quite a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say 10 or 15 minutes. He was disgusted with the whole situation down there. He said, “You know this is a good time for me to sell out and come back up north.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. To me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I didn’t know what to tell him. What can I tell him. I am a thousand miles away from him. I don’t know what the answer could be, I hadn’t seen him in quite a while. I don’t know what his position is down there. I couldn’t see what his selling out would help with losing our wonderful President. It was too close to the assassination to even think. What could you tell a person?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he want to sell out?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was so disgusted and fed up with the whole God damn town, that is why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was upset with Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Absolutely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what he said that indicated that, and what his earlier problems had been that would have, you know, made him feel that way?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, he had no problems outside of this union, and the hiring, getting new girls for the show. That he probably could have straightened out eventually; and he was going all right. He was making money, I imagine, because I believe he was paying all his bills. I think he owed Uncle Sam a little money but he straightened that out eventually.

But the fact is that he probably didn’t want to have any connection between a city that murdered his President and him--he just wanted to separate himself from that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that indicated that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Because he said, “This is a good time for me to sell out and come back up north.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all you can remember him saying?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all I can remember him saying. He says, he started off, “Can you imagine, can you imagine,” like that, and he sounded like he had tears in his eyes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else do you recall him saying during that conversation?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I couldn’t say much, because we still felt that sickness when the President got shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do most of the talking?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I let him talk, I wanted him to talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want him to talk?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Because he was so close to the situation. He was close to Dallas. He probably has got some facts that we didn’t get out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him what was going on down there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I didn’t ask him anything because I felt it was enough. I didn’t want to know anything. That was enough to hear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your two sisters home when you called?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think that Mary spoke to him first and then I got on the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did you speak to him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About, I would say 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your sisters speak to him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. We weren’t--we had the television turned on, I had my television turned on, in the living room trying to get the news.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you clear in your mind that this conversation about thinking about coming back----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that it happened on, at the 9 o’clock telephone call.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 9 o’clock telephone call, Friday night, the day of the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did Jack make some other calls to you in the next day or so?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he did. I think he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, do you have any clear recollection?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I think he called everybody. He called Eileen, and I think he called us, and he called Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just asking you to think about what happened to you. What did you do after the telephone call?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I hung up. What is there to do?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the rest of the evening?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I sat down and watched the rest of the program on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear again from Jack that night?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I don’t think we did. It was too late then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you hear from any of your other friends or relatives?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eileen called, I think, after that. She said, “Jack called me,” my sister Eileen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And she called the house, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your understanding that Jack called both you and Eileen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think he talked to Eileen before or after?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, he could have called her before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of his call at 9 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Good; I am glad you asked me that. Because when I was in Dallas during the trial they were supposed to subpena me as a witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Our wonderful lawyer Belli, so Eva and I sat in the hall through the whole trial waiting to be called as witnesses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For your brother?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My brother Jack and also about this telephone call. Bob Dennison, our investigator, who the lawyer hired, gave me this message.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Bob Dennison had checked some records and found that you had--that he had made a call at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted me to have it so that I would be able to tell the judge and the jury exactly what happened that Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What you have done is handed me an orange sheet of paper which says, “While you were out” and then there is a message written down on it, “Call to Hyman in Chicago, call made from WH 1-5601, to SH 3-0984 on November 22, 1963, on 9:02 p.m.”

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Do you want this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I have read it into the record and that is satisfactory. Thank you.

Aside from that note that Mr. Dennison gave you what recollection do you have that you placed the call at about 9 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know it was after 8 o’clock because we had dinner late that evening or something, and I remember getting a call later on in the evening.

I didn’t know it was exactly 9 o’clock. I didn’t know, until Bob handed me the note.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that places the call before 10 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Too late. I mean we usually don’t get many calls after 9 o’clock at home, usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, but----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Under normal procedures we don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about this particular call that makes you think it was before 10 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think so. I don’t know why. I can’t give you a real honest answer, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a clear recollection that not only you talked with Jack but that your sisters Marion and Ann talked on that call?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am almost positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you again the rest of the weekend? Did you hear from him again?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he did call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you recall hearing from him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he called Saturday night. I think he called the night after. I think so. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about what was said at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t because if I remember what he said I would remember if he would have called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to think back again to this telephone call and ask yourself if other than this one statement that Jack made about wanting to close the place and come back to Chicago, if there was anything else that Jack said on the phone that indicated to you that he was disgusted and upset with the situation in Dallas, that is with Dallas as a place to stay.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All I can say is this: I believe from the tone of his voice he felt very much heartbroken and very sad and he felt he had lost a very dear friend and he wanted to get away from that site.

Like, let’s say like, being removed from the scene of the crime. He just wanted to get away from it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you talk about disgust or revulsion, do you mean to direct it, could it have simply meant that the recent--that the events that upset him--or do you think he made some special connection with the city itself that he was living in so he wanted--you know you have indicated here he was making some special connection with this place as a place he wanted to have nothing more to do with it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the way he felt because he lost a very dear friend, that is what I am trying to bring out. He just wanted to get away. He wanted to sell out and he was having----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what he would do after that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. With a fellow like Jack you don’t have to worry what he can do. He can do a thousand things and make a living. He is very capable. And he has got a good mouthpiece. He has proved it before he went into the nightclub business. He was in the manufacturing business with Earl, he walked out with a nice piece of change.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in the habit of keeping your papers and records that you make over the years. Do you retain these?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What kind of papers?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Receipts and check stubs and things of that sort.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I try to. I try the best I can in my own small way. I am my own bookkeeper, my own recorder, my own lawyer, and my own everything and I try to keep them as best as I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far back do you keep them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are supposed to keep them for 4 years, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long do you keep them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I try to keep them for 4 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that when you were interviewed by one of the FBI agents that you showed him your receipt for the piano that you sent? How did you happen to keep that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. By accident. Just one of those incidents. Did you see the color of that sheet, how it looked?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t seen it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, brother. You would never believe that a receipt would last that long. Of course, you could always check it with the piano company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d of November?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. If I had my daybook here--I have a daybook I keep my notes in for what I am supposed to do, like you lawyers do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to work?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I could get my daybook and tell you exactly what I did, nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have it here in Washington?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I can tear out the sheet and mail it to you. Would you like that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would be fine. Would you want to make a note of that? In fact, if you can run off a copy just send us a copy.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t need it. What do I need it for? I have nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you send us----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The whole book. Do you want the whole book, you can have it. Mail the book. I have nothing to hide in there. A couple of telephone numbers, call them and say I said hello.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do on Sunday, do you recall getting up on Sunday the 24th?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had breakfast and went out for the newspapers and I came back and all of a sudden there was--was there anybody in the house at that particular time--oh, that was a black Sunday. Eileen called, screaming. Eva called, screaming, and they hung up. All we could get was “Jack Ruby, Dallas,” you know.

I turned on the television, turned on the television and they showed the event of everything, you know, the recording of what took place. We couldn’t believe it. I still don’t believe it. I still don’t believe it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first learn of what Jack had done from your sisters?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. They called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You, I take it, were not watching television or listening to the radio?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I didn’t think I was. Because I was walking through the hallway when the phone rang and I forget whether I picked up the phone or Mary picked up the phone. You see Ann doesn’t answer the phone because she doesn’t get many calls. Her son is on the west coast, so we, Mary and I, pick up the phone. It was like an atomic bomb hitting the top of the house and everything caved in on you, like a disaster. It is just unbelievable. If a family has incorrigibles where they get into trouble and you get them out of jail, and the family is used to it, you know, you feel OK. But we never had anything like that in our lives, nothing. We are not accustomed to such things. We all work for a living, some of us work very hard. We are not the notorious type, we don’t care for no publicity. We all have pretty good personalities. My customers still laugh at my corny stories I tell them the year before. I don’t have to impress anybody. We don’t go for none of that big shot stuff.

So, when this thing hit us, you people can’t imagine, and then the phone started to ring. It kept ringing from that Sunday morning from reporters, and newspaper people from all over the country, and it just didn’t stop. We didn’t know what to say. It was just sickening. We had no answer for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go to Dallas at any time in the fall of--before the President was assassinated?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Dallas afterward?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you go?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just before Christmas, let’s say December 23, 24, and 25. No; on Christmas day I was on the road so I probably was there for 2 or 3 days around that period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know any of Jack’s friends in Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; because I wasn’t familiar with Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I met him later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known him before then?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never even heard of the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about George Senator?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with raising money for the defense?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you had to do with that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Here is a copy of, almost like this that we placed in certain newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply read this into the record. You have handed me a sheet of paper on which is printed in capital letters on the first line, “Appeal for Fair Play.” And on the second line “Save Jack Ruby” with three exclamation marks after it. Then in lowercase letters with the initial capitals “Funds for his Defense Needed” on one line. “Send your Contributions to:” on the next line, and then in all caps under that “Jack Ruby Defense Fund Committee,” then with initial caps and lowercase letters “P.O. Box 5226, Chicago 80, Illinois.”

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an advertisement you say you ran?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They ran it in several newspapers. One was the New York Times, I believe. It was rather unsuccessful, rather unsuccessful. But here is one we sent out 2,000 letters and we lost $200 out of it. We got $5 back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a copy of a letter on the stationery headed “Jack Ruby Appeal Committee”.

Now, do you want this stationery?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can have it. Just keep it. Keep this, too, so you will have it for your records.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark the “Appeal for Fair Play” advertisement as “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5, 1964, Exhibit No. 1,” and let me ask you if you will sign it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Down here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All right.

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next piece of paper, the letter on Jack Ruby Appeal Committee stationery I am going to mark “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5, 1964, Exhibit No. 2,” and ask you if you will sign this also.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. I have got “Hy Rubenstein.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Now, Exhibit No. 2 is a letter addressed to “Dear Friend” dated April 30, 1964, and signed by Michael Levin, Chairman of the Jack Ruby Appeal Committee.

Members of the committee listed on the left-hand side are Michael Levin, Chairman, Marty Eritt, Blanca Fortgang, Elmer Gertz, Ann Osborne, Barney Ross.

Who is Blanca Fortgang?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, probably a friend of Mike Levin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Elmer Gertz?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Also the fellow who got the letter up and the ad up, a friend of Mike Levin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ann Osborne?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know who she is. I think she is the one who got the letter out and got the list of names that was submitted to Mike Levin, the 2,000 names that cost us $200.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now were Fortgang, Gertz, and Osborne friends of your brother, did they know Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I am almost positive that not one of those people even know Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike, Michael Levin.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Mike is our family lawyer. Mike knew Jack ever since he was a kid.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Eritt?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marty Eritt I told you they probably went to school together and probably knew each other on the West Side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Barney Ross he has known all his life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your connection with the Jack Ruby Appeal Committee?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It was hard to get members names. A lot of people, business people, don’t want to put their names on this kind of a committee. So I used my name, I said, “Mike, go ahead and use my name.”

I had nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of. We needed money.

Those trials are expensive, gentlemen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was handling the funds for the defense?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the money that was raised by the Jack Ruby Appeal Committee? Did Earl have anything to do with that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with the raising of funds other than this letter and this advertisement?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nothing outside of these two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you talked with your brother Jack after the shooting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it was down in Dallas. I believe it was down in Dallas when I was down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was December sometime?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir, either the 22d or the 23d of December is as close as I can get to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing him on that occasion?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long you talked to him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Quite a while. I think I was there with Eva, and who else was down there, Sammy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you said to him and what he said?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What did we talk about: Something about, this is the gist of it if I can remember right because I walked away thinking about it to myself that he loved the President and something happened to him, that he don’t remember exactly what it was, and all that I remembered is the last time when he was down at the Western Union office when he wired that dancer of his $25 that she needed for room rent and I says, “What else, Jack?” And he said, “That is all I can remember.”

Then he mentioned something about the policemen down in Dallas. He said they lied. He said, “I didn’t say any of those things.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been after the trial that he mentioned that to you. I am talking about conversations he had before the trial.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, that is right, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that meeting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, there wasn’t much to say. First of all they have a little piece of glass that big that you can see him through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about 6 by 6.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is hard to talk to people through a piece of glass like that. You have got a barrier between you. He looked good. Jack looked good, but he didn’t act right. He looked disturbed to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him, what did you see that----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wasn’t our Jack 100 percent. There was something bothering him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I am not a psychiatrist. I can’t figure the man out. We knew it wasn’t right. We thought it was the environment in the jail, maybe he was mistreated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about the time you saw him before the--before Christmas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say or what indications did you see about his face or mannerisms?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Something like “What are they keeping me here for, what have they got me in here for?”

Half sentences. He asked me if I called certain people and here I haven’t even known any people. He gave me a list of names to call and I tried to write them down, you know, quick and I didn’t know nobody. I didn’t want to argue with him. I didn’t want to aggravate his situation. I didn’t want to disturb him any more than I had to and he gave me names, called off names, I said I will get in touch with them.

Later on when I went out with Eva, I said, “Who are these people I am supposed to call?” She says, “Forget about it. He gives me the same thing, people I am supposed to see and call to help him.” I didn’t know. And he wanted us to get every lawyer in the State of Texas. “Did you call this guy? Did you call Percy Foreman and did you call him?” I didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know who to call. We were strangers in Texas. We were never in trouble before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you to call people other than lawyers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His personal friends, his personal friends. I think some owed him some money, no names were mentioned that Eva didn’t know. She knew all the names he mentioned. That is why she told me to forget about it. She probably had already contacted them. Friends in Dallas, personal people who were either very dear friends of his and club members. And he was worried more about the dogs than he was about anybody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the occasion that you went down to see him before Christmas, was that at the time of the bail bond hearing? Do you remember the hearings?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember what the hearing was but I was down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down there for a hearing in December?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I think it was a bail bond hearing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he was more concerned about the dogs?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Than anything else?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir; worried about his dogs. I figured that was odd. Here is a man incarcerated, in prison for a shooting and here he is worried about his dogs and that didn’t make any sense to me.

You know, there was no logic there. I can understand how a man can be in love with a dog or dogs but why bring it up at a time like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me that you saw him during the trial or after the trial?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see him in the course of the trial?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wait a minute. In the course of the trial, I couldn’t see him in the courtroom but we saw him in the evening, I think--I think we were allowed to see him in the evening, I think. I am not sure. I don’t want to make a statement I am going to be responsible for because I can’t--I think we saw him in the evening. Yes; I think we saw him in the evening, after the trial. I think the hours were from 7:30 to 8:30 and the sheriff was very nice. He let all of us go up one time, the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you allowed in his jail cell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, no; outside, through that little piece of glass only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe that cell? Is there any other, is it possible to see out other than through that glass?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. See what out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are inside were there any other windows, could you look in through the glass and see windows or anything in that cell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it is inside. It is inside the center. It is one of these rooms that are inside, see. It is a separate room. It is not his room. It is like a visiting room that they bring him in from another part of the building into this particular room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see the cell that he was in?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His own personal cell?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to see anything of the prisoner other than through this glass, this 6-inch glass?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just about up to here is all you can see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about the middle of your chest.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything you want to tell us about the conversations you had with him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In general, how he is feeling, how he is getting along. How is the food. The sheriff told us that “Any time he doesn’t like to eat the stuff we give him,” and this was also $20 left downstairs for him someplace so that Jack could order what he wanted but nobody was allowed to bring in any food or candy from the outside, only the sheriff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was money left downstairs for him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes; we would do that for a stranger. It is our brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he been supplied, has money been made available to him throughout his incarceration?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He received quite a bit of money from people who send it in to him, you know voluntarily, telegrams, letters, money, money orders. He got money from all over the country. One country in Europe invited him to come over as a guest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see the letter of the invitation?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think we have the letter home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What country was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think Rhodesia.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has the family, however, provided sort of a weekly allowance for Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We could always see that Jack would get whatever he needs. They don’t allow too much in there in the first place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated he was left, at least while you were down there during the trial he was left, enough money so that he could order meals from the outside.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If he wanted it, naturally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about before the trial, was he given money for that purpose?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I think he had money because he was getting donations all the time in letters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Telegrams by the hundreds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he feel about those letters and telegrams?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He felt pretty good that he didn’t fight the case alone. He felt like he had help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he think the cause was?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Of course, there was always cranks who didn’t agree with what he did. We don’t agree with what he did, either. You don’t avenge a wrong with another wrong but I told the television people this, and I am going to tell it to you. Chances are this was a hundred million people. If they were down in Dallas at the same time Jack was, if they had a gun in their hand they probably would have done the same thing. I don’t say they would have, probably. Just one of those incidents. May I add something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack left a Western Union office at 11:17, stamped by his receipt from the money order that he mailed to Fort Worth. The maid knocked on his door at 8 o’clock that morning to clean up his room. Jack says, “Come back at 2 o’clock.” Which meant he wanted to sleep. The girl called him at 10 o’clock from Fort Worth, about there, Jack got up, took his dog, Sheba, drove down to the Western Union, wired $25 to this, I can’t think of her name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Little Lynn.

He saw the commotion about 450 feet down, and he wanted to know what was going on and he just happened to be there, and it was figured out 6 more seconds Jack would have missed the whole thing, if he had hesitated, because they were walking Oswald from the station to the wagon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Jack at all about his activities prior to the shooting and how he got in?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; we didn’t even mention anything like that. We weren’t concerned with what happened before. We were worried, we were wondering and worried why, and the only answer I can give you is he must have blacked out. You just black out and you do things like that. It is like punching somebody in the nose and then you feel sorry for it later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps this would be a good time for you, unless you want to break for lunch now----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t care. Can I add something to this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to ask you if we can go on here maybe we can finish up.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In an hour?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Less than that. Why don’t you take an opportunity now to tell us what you would like to tell us that I haven’t covered in the questioning.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. May I add how a person can possibly shoot a guy like Oswald, may I give you an example?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A player is sitting on the football bench, a sub. A man on the opposite team is running with the ball. The player gets off the bench and tackles the guy with the ball. What do you call the instinct, compulsion. That is the same situation with Jack. How do you account for it. You don’t know. He had no business getting off that bench. He is not even playing in the game any more than Jack had any business being in that station. That is my answer why Jack did it. May I add this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That police department is using Jack as a scapegoat for their mistakes. Anything--they have nobody else to blame it on, Jack Ruby. “You were responsible for the whole deal.” They are blaming everything on him, and that is one of the reasons why these policemen lied to save their own skins.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which policemen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All five that testified. Jack never said those things. He told me he never said those things about going to shoot him three times. No man tells you he is going to shoot a person three times. And then about him saying that the Jews are cowards and he stuck up for the Jews.

Jack is not that type of a guy because he doesn’t talk about those things. Sure he is a Jew but you don’t go out telling the world about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the things that Jack specifically denied when he talked to you about those policemen’s testimony?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us which ones they were?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All of them. He said--Jack did not talk to any of the policemen at all. He said he didn’t say anything like that at all to them. He don’t even recall mentioning anything that those five policemen testified that he talked to them about, anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention those specific things or did he just talk generally about it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just generally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you mentioned, for example, you said something about the Jewish motivation or whatever it was.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I don’t think Jack would talk like that to a businessman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention that particular topic to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the shooting the three times, did he mention that particular incident?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No: but he said he would never discuss those things in general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That television man who was downstairs taking movies of the thing, he made--he was testifying on the stand that at 10:25 and at 10:35 Jack came over and asked him twice when they were going to bring out Oswald. If he was 11:17 in the Western Union and got up to mail the money to this Little Lynn what would he be doing down at the station at 10:25. And who would dare walk into a police station with 30 policemen in front of television and radio reporters and shoot anybody unless you blacked out. The man must be crazy to do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This one episode about the police officers’ testimony is apparently something that sticks in your mind. How many conversations did you have with Jack about the policemen’s testimony?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Didn’t have hardly any. We don’t talk about those things, what happened at the trial. We didn’t want to relive the trial. We didn’t want to relive the shooting even.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear about, when did you first hear Jack deny that he had said the things that the policemen testified to?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It either could have been in December or it could have been right, at one of the nights of the trial. I don’t remember which. I don’t know when those statements were made. It could have been after the trial. Because that is when the FBI took the report, too, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva and Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sam might have been present at another time but I don’t think he was present at that particular time. It could have been. I don’t remember, you know when you have got problems on your head that are heavy, you don’t pick out, pinpoint different things. Nobody is that good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you recall, can you form a visual image in your own mind of going up there and seeing Jack on the occasion that he talked about the police officers’ testimony?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; because we saw him often. We saw him many times, we saw him in the evening during the trial and after the trial we saw him in the afternoon and evening both. So there was a lot of visits made between myself and also other members of the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about anything else about Jack, that might have caused Jack to do this. Do you have any other things you want to tell us about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I believe I have mentioned the most important things and gave you gentlemen some good examples. Yes; you didn’t ask me what led up to this thing, how come?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you now.