Chapter XXXIII: Front Matter (33)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do one more thing. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. It is a copy of an interview that two FBI agents, Glenn Silvi and Dave Byerly had with you on November 29, 1963, in Oklahoma City. I want to hand it to you and ask you to read it and tell us whether that is an accurate report of what you told them on that occasion?

Mrs. POWELL (reading report). Well, I didn’t say that he had never associated. We went into discussion about these carnival people, and he had some dealings with some carnival people at one time. But I mean----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the sentence that says, “She said Ruby was not, to her knowledge, a gambler, and to her knowledge, never associated with carnival people?”

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because at one time he had invested in a carnival show. They asked me if I knew this Slayton, and I told him I thought I knew him. Down here it says I said that I believed Ruby formerly had an associate named Joe Slayton. They asked me if I knew Joe Slayton, and I said I thought I did, that I thought he was a partner or something at one time. I never knew Joe Slayton at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, if you don’t have any other questions in that, to sign that.

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t like the way they said that, “An acquaintance with an exotic dancer.” Where do you want me to sign this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top.

Mrs. POWELL. Right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. POWELL (signs).

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 3. That is a 3-page document which is a report of an interview that two FBI agents, Gary K. Wilson and Joseph G. Peggs, had with you on November 24 in Dallas.

Mrs. POWELL. I sure wish I had a cigarette. I didn’t know really I was going to be up here 10 hours. Very well, where do you want me to sign this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign on the first page at the top.

Mrs. POWELL (signs name).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial each of the other pages?

Mrs. POWELL (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you have any questions, Tammi?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for spending all this time and coming all the way from Oklahoma City.

Mrs. POWELL. Well, tonight I will hate you. A little later I will be real mad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you working tonight?

Mrs. POWELL. Sure. I didn’t get off until 3 o’clock this morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you going to be able to make it back?

Mrs. POWELL. I have to do three shows tonight. I will get back just in time to go to work, and I have to do three shows. I don’t have to work tomorrow, though, Sunday. I am going to rest up all day and go out and see all the other people that have to work on Sunday. And I have to write a letter to the Commission.

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH LAWRY DOWE

The testimony of Kenneth Lawry Dowe was taken at 9:45 a.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Routinely we explain to the witness before we proceed with your testimony, a little bit about what is going on here.

The President’s Commission was established by virtue of an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts, the Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to the President on all the facts that we find.

We have asked you to come here today in particular because you have had some contact with Jack Ruby. Of course, we are interested in anything you might be able to tell us about any of the events and activities that we are interested in.

Under the rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition.

I might tell you also that under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice before you appear here, and that is a written notice. Do you know whether you received a notice from us or not?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. DOWE. Two days or 3 days ago. Three days ago, I’m sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, if we haven’t complied with the 3-day written notice, are you willing to go forward anyway?

Mr. DOWE. Oh, certainly; yes, indeed; go right ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me before I administer the oath to you?

Mr. DOWE. No; not a thing in the world. It is self-explanatory, really. I am here to help if I can. I hope I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and I will administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mr. DOWE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state to the court reporter what your full name is?

Mr. DOWE. Kenneth Lawry Dowe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Dowe?

Mr. DOWE. 4617 Samuell Boulevard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?

Mr. DOWE. That is here in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas at the time President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I was. Just had moved here. I had been here about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you lived before that?

Mr. DOWE. Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me back off just a second. Would you tell us when you were born?

Mr. DOWE. March 10, 1941.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing in Atlanta before you came to Dallas?

Mr. DOWE. I worked for a radio station for Esquire Broadcast, WQXI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. DOWE. I was a diskjockey at the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work there?

Mr. DOWE. Approximately 10 or 10½ months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any appointments before that?

Mr. DOWE. I was here in Dallas before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you work for in Dallas?

Mr. DOWE. Balaban Radio Stations, KBOX.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for KBOX?

Mr. DOWE. I was a diskjockey there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KBOX?

Mr. DOWE. About 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?

Mr. DOWE. Diskjockey in San Diego.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work as a diskjockey there?

Mr. DOWE. About 9 months. I was climbing radio markets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?

Mr. DOWE. I was with WABB in Mobile, Ala., and before that I was in college at Hattiesburg, Miss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What college was that?

Mr. DOWE. University of Southern Mississippi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Mississippi?

Mr. DOWE. Yes, I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have met Jack Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. I met him; yes; I think the second day I came to town. It must have been the second day, because I was being shown around the radio stations, and I met him that day. That was when I came to KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with you?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; Chuck Dunnaway introduced him to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long were you in Ruby’s presence?

Mr. DOWE. No more than 3 to 5 minutes--3 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to hear about Ruby between that time when you first met him and the time that you came in contact with him after the President was shot?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did. I heard that he came around the station frequently and that he was always inviting the diskjockeys up to his club, and that if I were to go up there, he would probably give me all the free drinks I wanted and be very nice to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever give you a membership card or pass to the Carousel Club?

Mr. DOWE. No; not a pass. I don’t recall him ever giving me anything. No; not a pass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other reason that would give you occasion to remember your first meeting with Jack Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. None other than the fact that it was one of the first few days I was there. It was on that occasion that I met him. And also I was told that he was known around the station for procuring women for different people who came to town; record promoters. And this was a fact, and I was a little amazed at this, but nonetheless, that is what I know about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you told this?

Mr. DOWE. At the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasion that you first met him?

Mr. DOWE. That is the first occasion, right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say procuring women----

Mr. DOWE. I mean that he would get you a date with one of his girls in the club, or a girl that he knew or something, and I was told by Chuck Dunnaway that this was a fact, and that it was his understanding that several record promotion men came to town--record promotion men are people who work for recording stations, and it is their job to see that a record is promoted, and see if they can get air place at the radio stations, and these people frequently come to town, and they have very large expense accounts, and this was the reason I was told that he furnished girls sometimes for these people and for other people, different people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything said to you which would have led you to believe that Ruby was getting any money off of this?

Mr. DOWE. No; not at all. I hardly remember meeting the man. I only remember about what he looked like, and that his name was Jack Ruby, and that he owned a club downtown. I was pretty much preoccupied in other things at that time, and I just didn’t even--it almost passed me by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were at the time you first learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I was driving down Central Expressway, and I was listening to the radio station. I was about 2 blocks from KLIF, and we had a bulletin on the air that said there was a possibility he may have been shot, and they didn’t know and were checking further reports.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?

Mr. DOWE. Shortly after 1 o’clock, as I remember it now. I don’t know exactly what time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you proceed to after you heard that?

Mr. DOWE. I went straight to the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work that day?

Mr. DOWE. I was there all day from that time until when I got off the air about 7 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after you got off the air?

Mr. DOWE. I guess 1 went home. I usually do. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the Dallas Morning News downtown?

Mr. DOWE. No; I assisted the KLIF News reporter on that day, because of the tremendous overload. I fed news stories to our radio on the phone about the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in contact with your newspaper people out in the field on the 22d?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t know any of them except the newsmen that work for us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I mean.

Mr. DOWE. Was I in contact with them on the 22d?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DOWE. On the 22d of November, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The day that the President was shot.

Mr. DOWE. Oh, yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, did you have KLIF reports at the police station and Dealey Plaza that were called into you?

Mr. DOWE. No; I was strictly taking reports written by the newsmen and calling other stations in the country and giving them reports.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were your newsmen getting their information?

Mr. DOWE. Some of them were probably covering the assassination. I recall one was at Parkland Hospital, and some were inside the station, and they were moving in and out all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the newsmen who were inside the station who were passing information on to you, passing reports on to you?

Mr. DOWE. I got one report from Glenn Duncan. I remember that Glenn gave me one report; it seems that he did. The rest of them, I wrote myself. And at that time, I think it could have been Roy Nichols, because Roy, I believe, was at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t understand how you were writing the report yourself unless you were in contact with somebody who was giving you information.

Mr. DOWE. I was getting information off the wire service. We have a wire service of reports that I heard. In other words, I would listen to our report from the air, ad-lib them for the most part, and put together any statistics I needed off the unit press wire service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got off the air at about 7 p.m., what did you do?

Mr. DOWE. I went home. I would imagine I must have. Maybe I was around the station for a little while, but I didn’t go any place besides the station and home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to work the next day?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; that day I was--I came in, of course, early. It was about 1 o’clock. I usually am there before 2:30 or 3, and my regular shift is from 3 to 7. And that day I was there from 1 to 7. The next day probably I must have gotten there earlier. I am sure in a situation like this I would have been there earlier. What time, I don’t know, but in between times I was only at the station and only at my house. The next day was Saturday, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. DOWE. The next day was Saturday, so I came to work at noon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go right on the air at noon?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; we didn’t--there was no air work per se done by the diskjockey. There was constant news coverage of the events that had taken place, and we were just, I was just sitting there running the control board monitor gains and things like that. Purely technical. I was on from 12 to 6. That was my shift that day, same as today, Saturday, 12 to 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to hear from somebody that you subsequently believed was Jack Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did that afternoon. Honestly, it has been too long, and I have told the story so many times, that I am really not sure, so I am going to give you the facts as I remember them as of this moment. At that time I got a telephone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time?

Mr. DOWE. Four or five o’clock. It seems to me in the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time?

Mr. DOWE. Well, because I didn’t have but a couple of hours left. I watched the clock constantly. That was part of my job. I give the time every few minutes, or after every record. And it seems that it was around 4 or 5. We have an awful large number of commercials to be played on Saturday, and I was quite busy, and I don’t remember that day having anything to do, and it was a long time, and I had been on the control board for quite a while, so I remember that I had been there for a while, and it seemed like it was around 4 or 5 o’clock. The newsman was Gary DeLaune, or something. I have forgotten.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he at the time?

Mr. DOWE. He was in the newsroom sitting almost opposite me in the newsroom, and the first call I got, this person who said he was Jack Ruby said, “Do you know Gordon McLendon’s telephone number?” I said, “No, sir; I don’t.” And he said, “Well, that is all right, because I know it anyway, but I need to talk to him.” And I said, “Well, I thought he was some crank that had gotten our hot line telephone.” The hot line is a DJ number and only the personnel of the radio station should know. And I said, “I don’t know his number.” Because we are not allowed to give numbers on the air. As a matter of fact, I didn’t know his number. And he said, “That is okay, because we are good friends. I know his number, and I will call him, and this is Jack Ruby.” And I said, “Fine: Jack Ruby, that is good.” And I put the telephone back where it was.

A few minutes later I got another telephone call. I got two or three that day, but I am almost sure that it was three. Anyway, in the course of the next conversation or conversations, this person who said he was Jack Ruby called again and said, “I understand they are moving Oswald over to the county jail. Would you like for me to go over there and get some news stories? Would you like me to cover it, because I am a pretty good friend of Henry Wade’s, and I believe I can get some news stories.” And I said, “Just a minute, let me see,” and I tried to talk to Gary DeLaune who was in the other room, and I said, “The news department is busy, Mr. Ruby, but if you want to help us any way you can, we will appreciate it.” And I put the phone down and I turned on the intercom system and I said, “Gary, who the devil is Jack Ruby? He called me twice on the hot line, and I don’t know who he was, and he said I am the guy that runs the Carousel Club down the street. I said I remember I met him when I first came up.” He said, “He is just a guy that calls on the telephone and he knows everybody in town and maybe he can help us. That is good.” And I said, “Okay.” I had asked Gary if he wanted to talk to Jack, but that was before the same telephone call, but he was busy, and he said, “No, no,” like this. He was preoccupied. So, that was when I talked to Jack and told him if he wanted to help us, he could, and that is the last I heard from him. I found out later that night that he came up and brought some sandwiches and things, but I had been gone quite a few hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know it was later that night?

Mr. DOWE. One of the news people, I believe Glenn Duncan, said he was there. This was after Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything from your own experience that would indicate whether these telephone calls from Ruby came in the afternoon before Ruby showed up in the evening, or whether the telephone calls came in the afternoon after Ruby had showed up the previous evening?

Mr. DOWE. No; I don’t recall. I remember him telling me he had come down and brought some sandwiches. I thought it was at night. Glenn Duncan would know. He was there, at this time. I didn’t know. At the time of the telephone calls, I didn’t know anything about any sandwiches or anything about Jack Ruby. As a matter of fact, I didn’t remember meeting him. I wasn’t very impressed, evidently, or I would have remembered him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you learn that Ruby had brought sandwiches?

Mr. DOWE. After Ruby had shot Oswald and after they were discussing it at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that Ruby called you on November 23, that is, Saturday, rather than on Friday?

Mr. DOWE. I am absolutely positive it was Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you sure it was Saturday?

Mr. DOWE. Because I was on the air about 4 o’clock that afternoon, and there was nothing happening, and it was the second day. It was after the assassination, so it must have been Saturday. If he was assassinated Friday, he didn’t call me Friday, because he called me Saturday. I remember going over to Chuck Dunnaway’s house Sunday morning, and he said, “Ken, you should have been here a minute ago, because Ruby just shot Lee Oswald.” And I said, “Who is Jack Ruby?” And he said, “Some guy that owns a club downtown.” And I said, “Jack Ruby; that is the guy who called me yesterday. You must be joking.” I was amazed, and I remembered he had called me yesterday, because we answered the telephone constantly. I get many calls, and I wouldn’t have remembered if it had been any longer than a day or two. I would have remembered, but at that time it just hit me, and I said, “That is the guy I talked to yesterday afternoon.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remembered on Sunday when you first heard that Ruby had shot Oswald, that it was the day before that you had talked to him.

Mr. DOWE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you answered the telephone on these couple of occasions, did you at anytime give your name to Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. Probably; yes. I don’t remember doing it. I am sure I must have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall Ruby calling you by name?

Mr. DOWE. No; he did not call me by name. He asked me, now I remember, when I first answered the phone, he said, “Who is this?” And I said, “This is Ken Dowe.” And he said, “Is there a newsman or somebody? This is Jack Ruby.” And he talked like he knew me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the conversation did he use your name, or don’t you have any recollection?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t have any recollection. I don’t recall him using my name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time do you think separated the first telephone call and the last telephone call?

Mr. DOWE. I couldn’t honestly pinpoint it, by any definite number of minutes, but more than a few minutes. Likely less than 15 or 20.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did Saturday night, the night before Oswald was shot?

Mr. DOWE. No; I don’t remember what I did last Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain at home and watch television, or listen to the radio?

Mr. DOWE. Let me see. Sometimes I did. I have forgotten. I think I gave testimony to somebody what I did. I recall there was some peculiar circumstance that--no; they asked me what I was doing Sunday morning, and I finally remembered that I had gone to Chuck’s house because of the Jack Ruby thing and all, and had gone to eat some chili with them. But Saturday night, I don’t remember. Probably I was at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes of your experiences on the 22d and 23d and 24th?

Mr. DOWE. None whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make a tape recording of what your experiences were?

Mr. DOWE. No tape recordings; no notes. The station has a 24-hour tape recording going on of the proceedings that were on the air.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have them. We have copies of those tapes. Actually, we have the original tapes.

Mr. DOWE. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first talked with the police or Federal investigator about your experiences on Saturday?

Mr. DOWE. Yes. The first time I ever talked, I volunteered the information myself, because they called the diskjockey hot line at that time and asked what number this was, and I said, “This is Riverside 7-9316.” That was our hot line number at the time. I guess it was then. But regardless, anyway, they called the hot line, because he wouldn’t have answered it if they hadn’t. So, he said, “This is the FBI.” I don’t recall the name. And he said, “We found this telephone number in Jack Ruby’s possession, and we would like to know if you know anything about it, or know why he would have this telephone number.” And I said, “No; I don’t.” And he said, “Do you know anybody down there that he knows?” And I said, “Yes; I know he knows Chuck Dunnaway.” And he said, “Well, how can we locate him. We can’t find his telephone number. We have looked for him.” And I gave them Chuck’s telephone number. And I said, “By the way, for what it is worth, he called me the day before. I don’t know if that would do you any good. I am sure it wouldn’t, but if you are trying to put everything together, I wanted you to know that he did call me on the telephone.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the police talked with you before that?

Mr. DOWE. The police have never talked with me. The FBI and Melvin; a private investigator for Melvin Belli, I guess that is all. The police never entered into it. As a matter of fact, it may be a good idea for you to check with his private investigator, of Belli’s, because I gave him a complete detailed outline of absolutely everything that I could remember that happened, and it was all fresh in my mind at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Belli’s investigator before you talked with the FBI?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To refresh your recollection, the first FBI interview----

Mr. DOWE. They were separated only by a week or so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI talked with you on December 14.

Mr. DOWE. I talked with him after that. I talked with the FBI first, and they weren’t too interested. I am sure it was the FBI that I talked with, and they said I gave them all the reports and everything of what I knew had happened, and I wasn’t in there more than 5 or 6 or 7 minutes, and he didn’t seem like it was too pertinent at the time. So, I gave them the information I had, and then I talked with this private investigator, whose name I have forgotten now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you talked with the FBI at the police station?

Mr. DOWE. Yes. I guess it was the police station. I talked with a gentleman whose name was Snooky, but I don’t remember his last name. It is kind of an odd name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you, Mr. Dowe, what I have marked as Kenneth L. Dowe Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This is a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent John E. Dallman as a result of talking with you on December 14, 1963. It consists of one page. I am also going to hand you what I have marked as Kenneth L. Dowe Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. DOWE. I talked to some FBI agents at the radio station. This was not too long ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. This Exhibit No. 2 is a report of an interview that two FBI agents had of you on June 3, 1964. The agents’ names are Alfred C. Ellington, and Emory E. Horton. This report is three pages, and the pages are numbered consecutively and at the bottom, 38, 39, and 40. I will ask you to take your time and read these over.

I want to know first of all whether or not the reports accurately reflect what you said to the FBI on those particular dates, and whether there are any changes or corrections that you would want to make.

Why don’t you start with Exhibit No. 1 and let me ask you, first of all does Exhibit No. 1 accurately reflect there what you told them?

Mr. DOWE. To the best of my knowledge, Exhibit No. 1 is a pretty close and accurate record of what I remember, and probably it would be better to say between 2 and 5. It seems now it was around 3 or 4. It seems that, because I have--but 2 to 5 is better, and I don’t remember well enough to tell you it was at any specific time. That basically is as well as I can recall what happened, on report 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, that is Exhibit No. 1. Let me ask you to sign that up near the top where I have marked it. Right here is okay, anyplace that is conspicuous.

[Mr. Dowe signs.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Returning to Exhibit No. 2; does that accurately reflect what you told the FBI agent?

Mr. DOWE. No, not exactly. There are several things in here that maybe were misconstrued or they didn’t understand probably, or I didn’t understand the question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, to go through it and read the portion that you feel is inaccurate, and then make any improvements upon that portion that you want to.

Mr. DOWE. In the first paragraph, it says, “Dowe advised he had never visited Ruby’s nightclub and had never personally seen Ruby since that time.”

I don’t recall being asked any question like that. As a matter of fact, there was one occasion when I was in Dallas before, about 2 days before I left to go to Atlanta. Some friends took my wife and me out to dinner, and as a joke, we went to see one of the girlie shows, because my wife had never been there.

And we found out later, upon reminiscing, it was the Carousel, which was Jack Ruby’s, so I have been there at one time.

It says, “He also advised he has never seen Ruby on the premises of the radio station KLIF since the occasion he was introduced to him.”

That is true. I saw him that one time.

Now, down to paragraph 4, it says, “During this period, Ruby called the station on three occasions. However, it is Dowe’s impression that Ruby identified himself by name on only the last two calls.”

I don’t know whether he identified himself as Jack Ruby the first time, or whether it was the last two times.

And another thing that I have stressed in each interview is the fact that I don’t know whether he made two or three telephone calls, and it repeatedly says three telephone calls in his testimony. And that is only--I am just guessing. Two or three, I don’t know.

Over on what is page No. 39 it says, “It is Dowe’s recollection that on the occasion of the second call, Ruby inquired as to whether any of the newsmen from Station KLIF were in the vicinity of the Dallas City Hall, and on this occasion that the caller identified himself as Jack Ruby.”

That is pinning it down an awful lot. I don’t recall that I remember that much about it, really.

I advised the name Jack Ruby meant nothing to me, and inquired of some other employee of the station, who at this time I do not now recall.

I wasn’t asked that, but I do recall Gary DeLaune is the employee I asked the question, “Who is Jack Ruby?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, how does DeLaune spell his name?

Mr. DOWE. Actually, DeLaune is only the name he uses on the air. I don’t remember his real last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how it is spelled?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t know either. He is an entirely different department and he is usually in a mobile news unit, and I rarely see him, and I have never taken it upon myself to know what his last name is.

I might remember it tomorrow or something. I have seen it. It is vaguely familiar. I would know if I saw it, but I have forgotten. It is different. It is not a common name.

Then I see down here on also the same page that the telephone number of the hot line at that time was Riverside 7-9319, which I remember it was. It is not that any longer.

Also, this is something that I gave you at the same time in the interview today, that may have been incorrect, because I remember now, as stated here in this paragraph: “Dowe advised that on Friday, November 22, 1963, it is his present recollection he would have been on duty as an announcer at the station 3 to 7 p.m., and being a new employee, he was present at the radio station from approximately 10 a.m. to at least 7:30 a.m.”

This being true, I gave you a statement earlier that I was on my way to the radio station, and I thought it was about 10 after 1, because usually that is the time that I go in. Now, I don’t remember if it was 10 after 10 or 10 after 1 but as I recall this minute, today, it was more likely 10 after 1. I don’t even know what time the President was shot. I have no statistics in my head. I can’t remember which was which now. It’s gotten entirely too involved.

Down in the last paragraph it says, “Information previously furnished by them was possibly misleading regarding the number of visits by Jack Ruby in the premises of the radio station. However, he is pretty positive that he has never seen Ruby at the station except on his introduction to him.”

I can’t remember giving anybody any report saying I had seen him several different times. I don’t think I did, but I only saw him one time in the station. They had that earlier in the report to show that, really, it repeats itself, but that should make that correct.

With those corrections, that is as well as I can recollect at this time what is the actual truth of the matter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. To clarify this in your own mind, I think in the first report they had written referring to “he has been in Dallas for about 6 weeks, and after the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, he recalled that an individual who stopped by the radio station on a couple of occasions was Jack Ruby.”

Mr. DOWE. Apparently that was it. I might be misled on a couple of occasions. What I was trying to say was, that he had been by there on probably several occasions. I said a couple of occasions, but I only met him once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine, I think it is clear. I certainly have no mistake after listening to the testimony as to how many times you have seen him.

Is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you think we should have covered?

Do you have any other information that might be valuable to the Commission?

Mr. DOWE. Not a thing. It has been so long, that really after so many reports, I hope I haven’t confused you, but I think this is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you one further question, I think we neglected to ask you at the beginning. Are you presently employed with KLIF?

Mr. DOWE. Yes, I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your spending the time with us this morning.

Mr. DOWE. You are very welcome.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice meeting you.

Mr. DOWE. Come back and visit Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I may be back.

Mr. DOWE. It is a nice place. Thank you for letting me come this morning. I am sorry I couldn’t make it this afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you please sign your name on Exhibit No. 2?

[Mr. Dowe signs name.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Thank you very much. Bye.

Mr. DOWE. Bye, bye.

TESTIMONY OF T. M. HANSEN, JR.

The testimony of T. M. Hansen, Jr. was taken at 1 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again for the record. My name is Burt Griffin.

Mr. HANSEN. G-r-i-f-f-i-n?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right. I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. HANSEN. Before we begin the actual testimony, it has been our practice to explain to you very briefly what this is all about. Then if you have any questions that you want to ask before we swear you in, why do that too.

The President’s Commission was established by virtue of an Executive order of President Johnson, which was issued last year in November, and also of the rules of a joint resolution of Congress.

We have been specifically directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that had to do with the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today in particular, because after the FBI interviewed you, when they interviewed you, you indicated that you had seen Jack Ruby on, I believe, November 22, and also that you had worked in the section near his club and were generally familiar with him. So for that reason, we have asked you to come here to testify and tell us what you can about Ruby. But also to tell us anything else that you might be able to provide on any of the other matters we are interested in.

Let me also say this. Did we send you a letter asking you to come here?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes; I have it in my pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive that letter 3 days ago or longer?

Mr. HANSEN. I have been on a vacation, and it was given to me the 22d by my captain in the traffic division, Captain Thompson. I just come back from a vacation of 20 days, and I believe it was sent while I was on vacation, and they set it up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see then, under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive this 3 days before we call you to testify. Are you willing to waive that 3 days?

Mr. HANSEN. I am willing to testify. I want to help you any way I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask this as a formal matter, and nobody has insisted on it. Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me before we proceed?

Mr. HANSEN. No; I don’t have any questions at all. I will try to answer anything you ask me as truthfully as I know how.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you please raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HANSEN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give the court reporter your full name.

Mr. HANSEN. I have an initial. It is T as in Tom, M. Hansen, Jr. Initial T only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Officer Hansen?

Mr. HANSEN. I have changed addresses since all this occurred. At the present time I live at 1702 West Lovers Lane in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a member of the Dallas police force?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. HANSEN. I went on May 30, 1949, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What division were you assigned in November of 1963?

Mr. HANSEN. When this occurred, I was working in traffic division, in the traffic division about 11 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any particular assignment that month?

Mr. HANSEN. The day that the President came through?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you assigned?

Mr. HANSEN. I was assigned to Main and Akard, which is the corner I have been working for 11 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that near the Carousel Club?

Mr. HANSEN. That is two blocks, approximately, from the Carousel Club. The Carousel Club is on the corner of Commerce and Field, and I was working at the corner of Main and Akard the day that the President came through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, to the best of my knowledge, approximately in 1950 or 1951, I believe, Jack Ruby ran a beer joint that is what it was, a beer joint down here on South Ervay in the south part of town known as the Silver Spur. At that time when he was running this place, I had been working further south than that over in the colored district, and I was getting moved around. I was a young man, and a new man in the department, and I shifted around, and I went down on squad 41, which the Silver Spur was on that district, and all up and down this street at that time, that was one of your streets where you got your characters. If they were out, they was on that street.

We worked that pretty heavy, and naturally you worked all the beer joints and these places and dancehalls, and you get a little action up and down there. And I had occasion to go in there and check those places from the 400 block all the way out to Forest Avenue, and it just happened Jack Ruby’s place was in there. We checked him just like everybody, and that is when I first come in contact with Jack Ruby. I don’t even recall when he bought the place, but that is the first time I ever knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since then over the years, have you had occasion to see him from time to time?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes; I have seen him pass me on the street and he speaks to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you recognize him?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes; I knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anybody else that you know or have seen around Dallas who resembles Jack Ruby?

Mr. HANSEN. I imagine there is, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you know of.

Mr. HANSEN. No; not that I could say looked just exactly like him. I am sure that somebody looks like him, but I don’t know anybody personally that looks just like Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, knowing him over the years, were there some incidents in which you came to learn that Jack Ruby had a finger bitten off?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes. I answered the call the night he got in a beef down there with some fellows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was that?

Mr. HANSEN. That was at the Silver Spur, the same one I referred to awhile ago. We answered the call, and there was a pretty good skirmish on the sidewalk in front. I can’t think of this fellow’s name, its been so long. There would be a record. The boy got a load, and I believe it was this one or this one [pointing to fingers].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either the second or third finger on his right hand?

Mr. HANSEN. I don’t recall just exactly which. I believe it was the left hand, come to think about it. I believe I remember I was shaking that hand, and I know it was hurting. The boy bit his finger and spit it out in the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see the boy bite it off?

Mr. HANSEN. No. I got there after he did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack with part of the finger missing?

Mr. HANSEN. Part of it missing, and the other part just hide hanging down. And I run this old boy down the street that was the one that was supposed to bite it off, and I finally caught him. We had a fight and I got him handcuffed. That’s been so long ago, I don’t recall his name, but I do remember his waving that finger and blood running, and he had a pretty chewed up finger. It was just stumpy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever come to find out what the fight was all about that provoked that?

Mr. HANSEN. Never paid much attention to that. We had stuff like that that went on all the time. It was sort of customary. If it wasn’t a finger, it was an ear or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack opened up the Carousel Club, how often did you have occasion to visit the Carousel Club?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, I never visited the Carousel Club regular or anything. I have been up there, and I would say during the time he had the Carousel Club up there, to my knowledge, maybe I went up there 9 or 10 or 12 times, I don’t know, just if I had somebody come to town I knew, or some boy I had known when I was younger, we would go up there and watch the girls dance and maybe drink a beer, and have a drink or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your acquaintance with Ruby, did you have any occasion to notice any kindnesses that he bestowed on people?

Mr. HANSEN. I did. Yes sir; I sure did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of the things you recall him doing?

Mr. HANSEN. I have seen Ruby, oh, I would say, three or four times, maybe five that I can recall, give money to a woman. I mean some woman or destitute woman he would see coming down the street. One time I recall vividly, it hasn’t been too long before this happened, maybe 2 or 3 months, I recall we were standing beside the Florsheim Shoe Store, talking, and he stopped and spoke to me, and there was a woman coming down the street, and I believe she had three or four children. Anyway, they were just bang, bang, bang, one right after another one, and looked worse than the wrath of God, and a milk bottle and Ruby said, “That is a shame.” And I said, “Yes; it is, Jack.”

And he walked across the street over there and stopped her, and I don’t know what he said to her, I didn’t hear him, but in the meantime, after he stopped her, I walked across over by there and he handed her a bill folded up and I couldn’t swear whether it was a 10 or 20. I know it had to be one of the two, because it had a zero, and I could see that on the corner. He handed her that money and he patted her on the back and walked back.

I have seen him several times previous to that give people that are destitute and in need, give money, and I know he is bighearted. I witnessed that, I know that. And I have heard a lot of people say that he helped a lot of people. That is hearsay, but this other, I know for a fact.

This one occasion--I have seen him several other occasions--one time at the bus station he was in the bus station and this woman down there had a whole slew of kids, about the same kind, and a bunch of us passed a hat and got that gal $40 to get her on out to California, and Jack kicked in on that, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him ever, or did you ever hear of his bestowing particular kindnesses on his employees?

Mr. HANSEN. I have never seen this. Now I have heard that several times employees would have hard luck of one type or another and he would send them money. And he would put a jar or a can up on the bar and people that knew about it, that knew the people, would maybe put in. There is not a doubt in my mind that if they put anything in the jar, that it went where it was supposed to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to talk with Jack or observe him under any circumstances which would indicate how he felt about being sensitive to being a Jewish person?

Mr. HANSEN. Jack was what I would say was a sensitive type of man. He is an emotional man. He is for the underdog always. And since all this happened. I have heard a lot of talk. In fact, he told me one time when he was 7 years old he sold newspapers and he had a fight to stay on the corner everyday. I believe he said in Chicago. He told me that out of his own mouth. I know it was some eastern city. I am not certain about the city. I am sure it was some eastern city. We have discussed politics together. He has brought up--we have had coffee together and he has talked about President Kennedy and about President Roosevelt, and he thought they were both great men in American history.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen--would he bring this up on his own?

Mr. HANSEN. He would bring it up about what they had done for the poor people and the underprivileged, and he thought very highly of both parties, both Roosevelt and President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk with him at any time after the Stevenson episode that took place here in Dallas?

Mr. HANSEN. I believe we did. Now, I am not positive. I believe we did. I don’t remember too much about it, but I believe we did, something was said or something about the discourtesy that was shown him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I started to ask you before about Ruby’s sensitivity to being Jewish. Do you recall any incidents or conversations with him about that?

Mr. HANSEN. No. I wouldn’t say he was sensitive to it. Now, you asked me that--we used to tell a lot of jokes to one another. I liked to kid around and joke. If I had a good Jewish joke, I would tell it as quickly to Ruby as anyone or anybody else, and Ruby would laugh at it. If he was sensitive in regard to it, he never let it show. And I would never say anything to anybody that deliberately, with the intention of hurting them due to race or anything.

I have had jokes told on policemen to me, and I figure if a fellow can’t laugh at himself, there is something wrong with him. But I have never seen him take a personal dislike to somebody for saying something about a Jew, telling a Jewish joke, or something like that. I have heard several said in front of him, and I have told him several, and he never took offense to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I now direct your attention to the activities of November 22. Did you work in your official capacity as a police officer on November 22?

Mr. HANSEN. The day the President was assassinated; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report to work that day, if you recall?

Mr. HANSEN. I believe we came in early. I don’t recall just how early we came in. I know we made detail early. Of course, everybody come in, and I was in there early. We went to change clothes, and I don’t recall just exactly what time we made detail offhand, but we were there early. We were told to go right to our corners and what to do and watch out for the safety of the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time on that day?

Mr. HANSEN. I am not positive. When I say I am not positive, I either saw Ruby the morning before the President came in from Love Field down Harwood to Main--I either saw him the morning that--I was going to the city hall that morning before we went to the corner, or the morning previous to that, I just don’t recall which. I have tried--in fact, I talked to an FBI man about it that interviewed me, and told him the same thing I am telling you. I don’t remember whether it was the day before or the morning of the parade.