Chapter IX: Front Matter (9)

Mr. CROWE. Before.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from?

Mr. CROWE. The hotel, I mean the motel. The motel I had just moved into that noon.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you saw, actually witnessed the television film of Ruby shooting Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. No; I never said that.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out?

Mr. CROWE. I was in the office checking into the motel when it came on TV and I had heard it.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. When did you speak to Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Oh, a couple minutes right after.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do so?

Mr. CROWE. Well, because he was in news and a friend of mine, you know, and I figured he would be interested in knowing if he had heard over the teletype or something.

Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the crystallization of these four coincidences came sooner than the time that you met the radio people in front of the club?

Mr. CROWE. That is what I said. From the time I was driving from the motel to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And you placed the call from the motel?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you called Hoy prior to?

Mr. CROWE. The crystallization of these ideas and coincidences.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you call him then?

Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time you told me the series of coincidences had not yet crystallized because they crystallized you said a moment ago after this call?

Mr. CROWE. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then what was the purpose of calling Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. And solely for that purpose?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact though, you did mention to Hoy, didn’t you, that you thought you had seen Oswald in the club?

Mr. CROWE. Not on that call.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not?

Mr. CROWE. Not until after. I called after that. I talked to him about three or four times that day.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you talked to him three or four times after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The first call, therefore, within a couple of minutes after you heard the news on TV was simply to advise him that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at that time tell him that you thought you might have seen Oswald in the club?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your purpose, you stated, for calling Hoy the first time then was simply to advise him of a fact, to wit, that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it to advise him of the fact or to converse with him about it?

Mr. CROWE. Well, him being a newsman you know call him and tell him about it if he hadn’t heard about it already.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t it occur to you that this news event was going all over the country simultaneously?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I knew it was in Dallas but I didn’t know whether it was in Evansville or not.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Whether he was watching it on television or whether he was even watching television.

Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Very well.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever called him before to give him news of this sort?

Mr. CROWE. No; I never had any news of this sort to give him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you childhood friends or something of that sort?

Mr. CROWE. No; I met him--I knew of him and he knew of me but we actually really first met about 1958, I suppose.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite certain that you did not speak to Hoy on the first call about your impression that Oswald might have been in the Carousel the week prior?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that it is possible that you may have told him that on the very first call?

Mr. CROWE. No; I mean no, I had not mentioned that to him on the first call. I have heard David Hoy state to others in front of me that I was the one that called him to tell him about Jack Ruby and what he was like and working with him. But that is all he has ever said. He has never said that I had called him and told him that I had seen Oswald in the club the week before, because I hadn’t. I hadn’t mentioned that to him until later on in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man by the name of Dale Burgess on that day who was with the radio station, I believe, or some news media in Evansville?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall the name. I spoke to a newspaperman in Evansville.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. CROWE. That same Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the time?

Mr. CROWE. No; I don’t. It would have had to have been, well, in the late afternoon, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Evansville on central standard time or eastern time?

Mr. CROWE. Central.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the time of your second call to Mr. Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, relative to the events which were taking place, considering that I think you said it was about noon, well, it was about 11:30 when you first called him and then you went down to the club----

Mr. CROWE. And then went to the----

Mr. HUBERT. Were interviewed by the newsmen and went to what you thought was Ruby’s house and came back.

Mr. CROWE. Yes; and then to the television station.

Mr. HUBERT. Television station and made a statement?

Mr. CROWE. Was interviewed there, and then went back to the motel I guess, so that would be----

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that you called Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. I guess it would be about maybe three.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of calling Hoy the second time?

Mr. CROWE. To--I don’t remember whether I did call him or he called me. I know I spoke to him. Anyway, I told him about the series of coincidences.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you had told him about that?

Mr. CROWE. That was the first time; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you spoke to the other newsman from Evansville whose name you couldn’t remember?

Mr. CROWE. I would say before.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after you had talked to Hoy the second time is when you spoke to the newsman from Evansville?

Mr. CROWE. Right. I think he had the newsman call me.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are not certain whether Hoy called you or you called Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. No. There were about 3 or 4 calls going out----

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present, where did this second call take place from, where were you when you made the second call?

Mr. CROWE. Right at the motel.

Mr. HUBERT. You say there were some more calls that day between you and Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What were they about?

Mr. CROWE. He had called me once, and said that the American News, I think, or the American Broadcasting, the word American comes to my mind, had suggested that he tell me to make myself scarce or to hide out or to move and let my whereabouts not be known.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why you should take such action?

Mr. CROWE. He said that it had been expressed to him that my life would be in danger.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he thought or he had heard that your life might be in danger?

Mr. CROWE. Because I had mentioned about seeing Oswald in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say who would be interested at all in killing you for that reason?

Mr. CROWE. He didn’t know. He was just expressing what he said he had heard from another news media. And maybe they were thought friends of Jack’s, you know, or I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, you made, I think, a previous statement both to the FBI and--I think you gave an affidavit in Dallas--to the Secret Service attested by a notary public--no, by Mr. John Joe Howlett, special agent of the Secret Service. For purposes of identification, I am going to mark these two documents which I am going to show you in a moment as follows to wit, first of all, the FBI report dated November 24, or rather which purports to be a report on an interview with you on November 24th by FBI Agents Robert Lish and Emory Morton. For the purpose of identification I am going to mark this document on the right-hand margin as follows: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, signing my name below that, the document consisting of one page only. And another document which purports to be an affidavit given by you on November 25 at 1 p.m. attested by John Joe Howlett, special agent of the U.S. Secret Service with Pauline Churchill as a witness. For purposes of identification I am marking that document as follows, to wit, “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, and I am signing my name below on that.

(The documents referred to were marked Crowe Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 for identification.)

Mr. Crowe, I wish you would read both of these documents with this in mind, that I am going to ask you in a moment whether these documents represent the truth or whether there are any changes or corrections that should be made in them, and so forth. So if you would look at them and you can make notes, if you wish on this pad or just make little check marks if you see anything that represents what is now considered by you to be not true. We will go into those matters after you have had a chance to read those documents.

Mr. CROWE. Those are it; no changes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have examined the two documents which have been marked for identification as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 relating to your deposition; and I understand you now to say that those documents represent the truth as you know it, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Exhibit No. 2 is your own affidavit.

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume that you signed it--I mean you read it before you signed it?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 1 on the other hand is a report of an interview which you have not seen before, I take it, and I specifically ask you if such is a correct representation of the inquiry?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; these are the questions, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us what is your present recollection concerning whether Oswald was in the Carousel Club during the week preceding the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. Would you state the first part of the question again?

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us your present recollection concerning whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Carousel Club on the week preceding the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. From what I recall, the face appeared familiar and I possibly saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club the week before.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the lighting conditions in the club such that you could have seen him?

Mr. CROWE. To some extent. If he was sitting right at the foot of the stage.

Mr. HUBERT. If not, that is if he were not sitting right at the foot of the stage, then what?

Mr. CROWE. Then I wouldn’t have used him and I wouldn’t have seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your act required that you use the people up front in the first place?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And secondly, the lighting was such that you couldn’t have seen him if he were not in the first row; right?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that whomever you saw you thought and think might have a resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald must have been in the first row?

Mr. CROWE. Right. I might say this: Bill Willis, the drummer in the band at the club, said he seemed to remember Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in the front row on Thursday night right in the corner of the stage and the runway.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this from Willis himself?

Mr. CROWE. Right. But I wouldn’t make that statement myself. But then I don’t recall the night or the exact spot.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a number of pictures which I am not going to give identifying numbers for this deposition since they have already been given identification numbers, but, for example, I now hand to you four pictures, the first two that I am going to call out being really a series of pictures--no, the first one, I am sorry, being a series of pictures, and the other three being individual pictures. These have previously been identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5206, and 5205 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, taken in Washington, D.C., on April 10, 1964.

I am going to ask you to look at these pictures and see if in any of them you see anybody that resembles the man that you may have seen there and who might look like Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. CROWE. When were these taken?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know. I would just like to ask you to examine them and see if there is anybody in there that looks like the man you used in your memory act and who was in the front row, and who you think looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. And whom you said may have been in the Carousel Club during the week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have said no after examining the picture which has been previously identified as No. 5212 of the deposition of Crafard. Now, you are looking at the picture which has been identified as Exhibit No. 5221 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you the same question as to that picture?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, your answer no is in response to the question relative to Exhibit No. 5221, deposition of Crafard. Would you look at the next picture, please, which has been identified previously as Exhibit No. 5206

Mr. CROWE. And all backs of heads.

Mr. HUBERT. In the deposition of Crafard. I am sorry, I didn’t get your answer?

Mr. CROWE. I say all backs of heads. He kind of favors it.

Mr. HUBERT. You are saying “he” and pointing. To whom are you pointing in the picture?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean describe it by way of position.

Mr. CROWE. Well, he is standing on stage.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say he is almost in the middle of that picture?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the microphone is right behind him?

Mr. CROWE. Right behind him.

Mr. HUBERT. He seems to have his sleeves halfway rolled up his arm?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; got a cigarette in his right hand.

Mr. HUBERT. That he seems to be leaning over a bit?

Mr. CROWE. And leaning forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that person resemble the person that you think you saw in the Carousel Club the week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say that. I say he favors.

Mr. HUBERT. Favors whom?

Mr. CROWE. Oswald. But I don’t recall him as being the one that I saw.

Mr. HUBERT. You think the man you just talked about in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 is not the man that you have been referring to as possibly Oswald in your previous statements to the FBI, to the press, and so forth?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But that he does bear some resemblance to him?

Mr. CROWE. Right. I could be wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at----

Mr. CROWE. Oh----

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 5205 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you to examine that picture with the same purpose in mind.

Mr. CROWE. Yes, the second person in the foreground has some similarity to Oswald, doesn’t he?

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the man who is just left of center in the lower quadrant of that photo?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. As to whom there is pointing a little pen written arrow; is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your comment as to that man, with reference to the possibility that he is the man you saw a week before the President was shot, in the Carousel Club, and who took some part in your memory act?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn’t say that he was the man I saw.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you have to make about him then?

Mr. CROWE. He does favor Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that your comment as to the man in the picture identified as Exhibit No. 5205 is substantially the same as your comment made with reference to the man in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it stronger or weaker, that is to say, do you think the resemblance to Oswald is stronger in one picture than it is in the other?

Mr. CROWE. I would say stronger in Crafard Exhibit No. 5205. He is not smiling.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the man you have pointed out in Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206, do you recall ever having seen him in the Carousel before?

Mr. CROWE. As to him personally, I couldn’t say for sure. The clothes are not familiar to me.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed who took part in your memory act that you think might have been Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. I have no idea as to how he was dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Your statements concerning the possibility it was Oswald therefore was based entirely on the facial----

Mr. CROWE. The face alone.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw Oswald in person, that is to say unless it was Oswald in the club?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; I never met him.

Mr. HUBERT. Your identification of the man in the club and the possibility he was Oswald is based, therefore, upon pictures which appeared in the paper and which the police exhibited to you, or the FBI, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now or have you ever had any recollection at any time of the position of the person who might have been Oswald in your memory act relative to other people. Do you understand what I mean? You know he had to be in the first row. Have you any recollection or have you ever had any, as to whether he was center, the left, or the right or what?

Mr. CROWE. No; they have three runways running out from the stage, and the customers are seated along and around the runways, and they can either be alone or with somebody, you would never know, you had no way of telling.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recollect whether the man who might have been Oswald was alone or was with someone else?

Mr. CROWE. No; you can’t tell the way they are seated.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, with reference to those four pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5205, and 5206 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, are you able to state that you recognize those pictures generally as being the interior of the Carousel Club?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present thought as to the possibility that the man that you had previously spoken about in the pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206 of the deposition of Crafard, may have been the man that you stated was a part of your memory act a week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. It is a possibility.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is a greater possibility that from the pictures you have seen of Oswald that it was Oswald than that it was the man in the pictures, Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206?

Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say it was greater or any less.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, having seen the pictures of Oswald and having seen the pictures of the man in five, Exhibits Nos. 5206 and 5205, your thought is that it could have been either?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That you do not favor the identification of one over the other in terms of strength of identification?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any sums of money or any kind of recompense for any story or appearance you may have made concerning this matter of your having possibly seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. CROWE. Definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Crowe, that you would like to add?

Mr. CROWE. I was just taking a breath to say that the only reason why Oswald was mentioned and thought of was because of the possibility of being or that I thought he was one of a part of a series of coincidences. And the coincidences was the only thing that I had in mind.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Now, Mr. Crowe, neither I nor Mr. Griffin have ever interviewed you before the commencement of this deposition, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. That is correct, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say all of the examination or conversation or contact between us has been in this room and while the reporter was recording it, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES BATCHELOR

The testimony of Charles Batchelor was taken at 1 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Chief, I understand that you appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of any deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that you may waive that if you wish, and I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you then stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Chief BATCHELOR. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, your deposition has already been taken, and therefore I will omit the usual questions identifying you and who you are and so forth.

There are certain other areas which we wish to cover, or areas which we wish to clarify, and hence the purpose of this subsequent deposition.

Do you recall what instructions, if any, you gave to Captain Talbert with regard to any type of security measures set up or to be set up?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that I gave Talbert any specific instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what security instructions, I mean security measures were taken when you first arrived at the Dallas Police Department relative to the transfer of Oswald on Sunday, November 24?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, as I believe I stated in my previous deposition, when I arrived there I parked my car in the basement and shortly, just moments after I arrived, Chief Stevenson arrived. We walked into the city hall from the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was, sir?

Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere around 8 in the morning. We noticed a TV camera in the hallway leading from the vestibule of the basement into the garage of the basement, and we commented that this was going to have to be moved. We went on upstairs to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. You commented?

Chief BATCHELOR. To Chief Stevenson. We went upstairs, and shortly thereafter Chief Curry arrived, and he had noticed this camera too, and we discussed it and said we would have to get it moved. There was no one around it. It was just sitting there.

Mr. HUBERT. This was in what you call the jail corridor?

Chief BATCHELOR. Just outside the jail corridor.

Mr. HUBERT. On the ramp side of the swinging doors?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; we went back--we came, after discussing this with Chief Curry, and he told us we better go down and take a look and see what we were going to need in the way of security--we went downstairs and gave instructions, I believe, to the jail supervisor that whoever had that camera, when they showed up, to tell them they would have to move it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the decision was made that the city police would move Oswald rather than the sheriff’s office?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, Chief Stevenson and I went into the basement on two occasions seeing about the layout down there. I believe that when I told the jail supervisor to get that camera moved, that this was on the first occasion and was before, I believe--I can’t be positive of that, but I think it was before.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been decided at that time that the route to be used would be through the basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, this is the normal way you take prisoners out of the jail, and I don’t think any consideration had been given to doing it any other way. It was just an assumption that this would be the way he was taken out.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the way to be used and this camera was in the way?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now if you wanted to avoid people by taking him out, it would be possible to take him off the jail elevator on the second floor or the first floor, but this is not the normal way you take prisoners out of the jail.

There is a door off the jail elevator on the first floor for the purpose of bringing prisoners down and arraigning them before the corporation courts which are on the first floor.

There is also an entrance off of the second floor and third floor of the jail elevator for the purpose of bringing prisoners down to the various bureaus for interrogation, but I don’t recall that we discussed bringing him off in this fashion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand that at a later time you and Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson also made a general inspection?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; at that time we went down and this camera had been moved.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Chief BATCHELOR. I can’t recall exactly. I would say that it was some time between 9 and 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that would have been after the decision had been made that the city police department would transfer the prisoner?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after the conversation of Chief Curry with Sheriff Decker?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present when Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff Decker?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was in his office; yes, sir. I believe I was the only one in the office with him at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you remember that it was then that the decision was made that the police department would move him?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; of course I could only understand one side of the conversation, but from the way Chief Curry was talking to the sheriff, I gathered that the sheriff had asked him if he would move him. The general procedure is for the sheriff to move prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT. But as I understand it, it is not extraordinary for you all to do it on certain occasions?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; we occasionally do it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right now, when that was learned, as I understand it, it was then that plans began to be made for your transfer of Oswald?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I suppose it is correct to say then that previous to that time there had been no consideration made of any transfer plans since you didn’t know actually that you were going to do it?

Chief BATCHELOR. We hadn’t made any definite plans the night before, if that is what you mean. It was on that morning around 6:30 in the morning when I received a call at home to the effect that an anonymous call had come in threatening to take the prisoner away from us. This was when we really began to be concerned about some extraordinary procedures in moving him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought that you all were better equipped to handle it?

Chief BATCHELOR. We had more manpower than the sheriff would have.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you tell us just how the plans developed from that time then after the Decker call about transferring him, that you know of?

Chief BATCHELOR. This is when Chief Curry and I discussed the possibility of getting an armored truck in which to move him, and we discussed this between ourselves and decided this would probably be a safe measure.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it just you and he, or was somebody else there?

Chief BATCHELOR. I believe Chief Lumpkin came in the office at the time this discussion was going on, and I went into my office and called Mr. Fleming at his home. I had to do a little search in the city directory to see who was in charge of the Armored Motor Car Service. I called him at his home.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was?

Chief BATCHELOR. It must have been around 9 o’clock or shortly after.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time you wanted the equipment on hand?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was actually close to 10:30 when he finally called me back and said he had the equipment ready and was bringing it downtown, but I didn’t tell him any definite time, that I recall. In other words, I didn’t say we are going to move him at a certain hour. I told him we were ready to move.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you told him to get the equipment there and would use it when you had occasion to use it?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time when you called him, as a matter of fact, was the time of the transfer set?

Chief BATCHELOR. There never was a definite time set for his transfer. Even though the press announced that he would be moved at 10 o’clock, there was never an announcement made that he would be moved at 10 o’clock, that I recall.

The thing that was said was that if the press were there by 10 o’clock, we thought it would be ample, that they wouldn’t miss anything.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the fact, the controlling factor insofar as time was concerned?

Chief BATCHELOR. When the homicide bureau finished their interrogation of Oswald that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. So then when you first talked to Fleming, he was not able to tell you whether he could get it?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he said he thought he could, but he was going to have to call his people and get some drivers down there, because they were closed up on Sunday, and he said, “As soon as I get hold of them, I will call you.”

He called me twice. He called me back later and said he had the drivers and he had two trucks, one a large Overland truck which would accommodate people sitting on each side of the truck on benches, and one a smaller truck.

He recommended the larger truck because the smaller truck would only accommodate one person in the back, and of course there would be need for guards.

So then the question arose as to whether or not this truck could be backed into the basement in front of the door leading out of the jail, because there is a low point in the ramp at that point.

So he asked me if I would check and see how high that was. And I checked with Chief Lumpkin, and he told me that it was 7′5″. This was not tall enough to accommodate the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Chief BATCHELOR. Then I called Mr. Fleming and told him the height and suggested that we would back the truck in on Commerce Street and not take it clear to the bottom.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you ordered the larger one only?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; he sent two. He said, “I will send you both, and you can make a determination when we get there; take the one you like.”

Mr. HUBERT. That second conversation was about 10:30 or so?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; as I recall, it must have been around 10:30. It was actually after 11 before the trucks finally got there.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after what, sir?

Chief BATCHELOR. I believe it was a little after 11 when the trucks finally got there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any way of fixing that time as to when the trucks actually got there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, the way I fix that in my mind is the lapse of time from the time the trucks arrived until Oswald finally was brought out in the basement, and this was not very long.

We backed the truck in, and I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and searched it, and got some bottles, a couple of Coke bottles, and a bolt that we found laying there, and took that out of the truck.

The truck had benches on each side with cushions on the benches. This was all that was in the truck. And it was only a short time after that until they actually brought him out. Probably not more than 20 or 30 minutes after the arrival of the trucks that they brought him down.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised of the arrival of the trucks?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement when they came, and somebody came down the ramp and told me they were out there, and I went out there and looked at them.

Mr. HUBERT. And you directed that they be backed in?

Chief BATCHELOR. That the big truck. And he backed it in and got the back wheels over the sidewalk and down the ramp, and it is a fairly steep ramp. The driver suggested that he not take it clear to the bottom.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he was afraid that he would stall the truck in coming out. It was a heavy truck and they had just taken it off of their lot. It had been sitting there all night and the motor was cold and he was afraid if he got it down the ramp and started out that he might stall, and he didn’t want to do that.

I looked the truck over. That is, I looked at the truck in relation to the walls of the ramp and found that it was so wide that there was only about a foot of space left on one side, and about 2 feet on the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which had 1 foot and which had 2 feet?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; the side of the truck next to the west wall----

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood Street side?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Next to the Harwood Street side it had about a foot of space, and next to the east wall, the other side, it had about 2 feet of space, and we put one man in the space between the west wall and the truck, and two men between the east wall and the truck and completely blocked the area.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who those men were?

Chief BATCHELOR. The body of the truck was actually inside the building on the ramp, and the engine and the front wheels were setting out on the level portion of the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the three men were that blocked the sides?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don’t recall who.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually see them being placed in position?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing at the foot of the ramp and saw them standing there. They were put there at my direction, but I didn’t personally direct these particular officers. I told the supervisor to put the men there. I don’t remember who that was either, but they were there.

Mr. HUBERT. And their orders were to remain there?

Chief BATCHELOR. They remained there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them there at a later time?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; they were there when I started to run up the ramp and close the back door at the time they brought Oswald out.

Mr. HUBERT. The men were still there?

Chief BATCHELOR. They were still there.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t recall their names now?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was the same men, the one man guarding the 1-foot space on the Harwood Street side, and the other two guarding the 2-foot space on the other side were there right after the truck backed in and were still there just before Oswald was shot, and so far as you know, they did not move?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They were under orders to stay there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I didn’t give them their orders. They were placed there, and they were there, so I assumed that they knew to stay there.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after you left the truck, do you recall?

Chief BATCHELOR. Left the truck?

Mr. HUBERT. The armored car.

Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing in the basement after I left the truck, and went down to the foot of the ramp. There was a time that Chief Stevenson came down and whispered to me that they had a change of plans and that they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that Oswald was to be taken in an automobile with detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go back up to the third floor then between the time?

Chief BATCHELOR. Not after that truck got to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the basement area at all after the truck backed in?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t recall that I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then, just around in there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Around in there.

Mr. HUBERT. And Stevenson told you about the change after you had left the truck. About how much time, roughly, before the shooting?

Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, just a very short time. From the time that he told me that they had changed their plans and the time the shooting happened couldn’t have been over 10 or 15 minutes at the most.

After he told me, Lieutenant Pierce and Sergeant Putnam got a squad car and took it out the Main Street ramp to get around the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that movement part of the original movement?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; that was part of the changed plan.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Stevenson tell you about that too then?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; he didn’t actually tell me about that. I saw him pulling out. I believe at that time he told me what they were doing, and then immediately after they took their car out. Two homicide detectives got two detective cars and started lining them up to go behind this truck, and one of them got in place and pulled up to the edge of the ramp, and then the other one backed his car in the place, and he had hardly stopped when they brought Oswald out.

And I was standing up toward the front of the back car, the best I remember, toward the front of the front fender, and they were still sort of jockeying these cars.

And about that time someone shouted “Here he comes”, and I looked over and saw them open the door and bring him out, and I turned and started up the ramp to close the back door on the armored truck.

No one, nobody--the truck driver nor anyone up on the ramp knew of this change of plans but the detectives involved in driving these cars.

Mr. HUBERT. And yourself and Stevenson?

Chief BATCHELOR. And myself, Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin. The rest of the men in the basement were not aware of this change of plans. He whispered this to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You realized the door had to be closed?

Chief BATCHELOR. I realized the door had to be closed and we hadn’t told anybody to close it, so as soon as they brought him out and I saw them bringing him out, I turned and started up the ramp to close the door on the truck, and that is when the shooting happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any conversation or giving any instructions with reference to the position of the press and other news media on the west side of the railing that divided the ramp from the basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood side of the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t follow you. There is not any Harwood Street side of the railing. The railing is on the other side of the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s right, but if you take the railing as a central point--I will put it this way. The jail side of the ramp, does that make sense to you?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which I think is really the west side of the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. West side of the ramp; yes, and it would also be west of the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any instructions or change of instructions with reference to the position of the press relative to the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; Chief Curry earlier, when we had come down there and looked the situation over, had instructed that we keep all the press on the inside of the railing of the ramp. That would be east of the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. On the garage side?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. We had also instructed that the TV camera be moved out. I had instructed that.

Mr. HUBERT. Moved out of the vestibule or corridor? Chief Batchelor. Between the time Chief Curry had come down with Stevenson and me and the time I came to the basement the last time they had moved two TV cameras in behind the railing where the press was to stand.

They also had one TV camera which was on the other side of the post at the railing on the little ramp that goes down into the garage proper. This camera, as I recall it, was inoperative.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t connected up?

Chief BATCHELOR. Wasn’t connected up. So later when I came down there, there actually was not room for the press behind that railing. It was all taken up with TV cameras. And they were scattered out along the driveway across the ramp that goes into the garage proper, the little short ramp that runs east and west into the garage.

And there wasn’t enough room. Detectives were in the vestibule of the jail office coming into the basement.

It was Captain Talbert, I believe, that asked me, in view of the fact that there wasn’t enough room over there, if some of these fellows could stand across there, if we kept them back and put some men to keep them back, and I said, “Yes, this would be all right.” So they were across this ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the ramp leading up to Main Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Across the ramp leading up to Main Street. They stood from the wall over to the railing. Now there were none standing on the west side of that railing itself. This would have been in front of the cameras. They curved slightly from the wall, from the west wall of the ramp over to the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. In sort of a slight curve, sets easterly?

Chief BATCHELOR. Slightly to the south. Easterly, and slightly to the south in a very slight curve, and there were detectives standing there all along, and they didn’t move out. They held their positions there, and the press was instructed that they were not to move out or attempt to talk to Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you instruct them yourself, or did you hear someone instruct them?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, I didn’t instruct them myself, but I heard them instructed, and I can’t recall who it was that told them, it was one of the supervisors, they were to stay back and not move in when they came out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone ask for permission to occupy that space on the Main Street ramp as they did in a slightly curved line, as you indicated a moment ago?

Chief BATCHELOR. Did I hear anyone ask for permission?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Chief BATCHELOR. The supervisor asked me if this would be all right. It was Talbert, I believe, that asked me that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t hear the press people ask?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; the press people didn’t ask me that.

Mr. HUBERT. Your instructions were that it would be all right if they kept back and if the line of policemen were put in front of them, and so far as you know, it was done?

Chief BATCHELOR. That was done. There were a number of policemen along there with them, and there were not very many people along there. That is not very wide across there. I imagine about maybe 12 feet. And they were not over about two deep where one could look over another’s shoulder.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did that happen? Was it after the armored truck arrived?

Chief BATCHELOR. They were lined up there at the time Lieutenant Pierce and the sergeant took that car out the Main Street ramp, because they had to part them to get the car through.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your conversation with Talbert about that would have been after you left the armored truck, I would think?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; not necessarily. They were standing there for some little time, because they didn’t know exactly when he was coming down. No; it was before.

If you mean after the last time I walked down to the armored truck and got down to the basement--well, it could have been, because it was some little time after I searched that armored truck, and I didn’t go back up there.

I say some little time, being probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that. I can’t recall definitely the exact time that Talbert asked me this, but it was during the last period of time I was in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding, Chief, as to who, if any individual or group of individuals was responsible for carrying out the transfer movement?

That is to say, considering that the decision had been made by Chief Curry as to how it would be done, what route would be followed, what automobiles would be used, what personnel would be used, who was to implement that by carrying out the orders; if there was any one individual or not, then who had responsibility for the various segments?

Chief BATCHELOR. The homicide bureau was responsible for actually transferring the prisoner. This was supplemented, as far as the guards in the basement were concerned, with a large number of detectives which had been told by Chief Stevenson earlier to stand by in the bureaus for assignment in the basement, and we came down to see about security and learned that Talbert had anticipated this thing.

And Chief Stevenson talked to Talbert. They sat there in the jail office and talked a while and found out what Talbert had assigned in terms of men that he had called in to assign along the route on Main Street.

And later he changed these men. He assumed that they were going down Main Street, and he changed them, I believe, to Elm Street. Sent a supervisor down the street to tell them to move over a block.

And I came down there and found security in the basement going into the jail office. That is in the records bureau section. There were guards in there. There was a guard on the stairway that leads up to the first floor.

I came into the basement and found a large number of officers in the basement. The cars were all gone. There were not over three or four cars in the entire basement.

Chief Curry’s car had been pulled out and put on Commerce Street, double parked to lead the group, and I pulled my car up and parked it on Commerce Street west of the ramp.

His car was parked east of the ramp and mine was parked west of the ramp. Now this was done prior to the time that we knew or that I knew or I think even Chief Curry knew that there was going to be any change of plans.

We had anticipated this in terms of using the armored truck to be followed by cars of detectives and to be followed by myself and Chief Stevenson in the rear car, but of course this never developed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Captain Fritz or anyone else made any inquiry of you or of anyone else, to your knowledge, prior to the movement as to whether things were ready to go in the basement area before starting from the third floor?

Chief BATCHELOR. I am told that he called Lieutenant Wiggins in the basement and asked him if he was ready. He called him, I think, from the jail floor, not from his office. He called him when Oswald was up in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when the transfer party did appear, you were actually moving toward the armored car, as I recall it, then weren’t you, to close the door?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I actually saw Oswald come through the door. Someone shouted “Here he comes.” I looked over and saw him come out the door, and then I turned and started up the ramp. I didn’t see the shooting. I turned before.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if Captain Fritz or anyone else called to find out if the situation was all right security wise?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know, because I wasn’t in the jail office. I was out. I am told that he called down and Lieutenant Wiggins said that almost immediately the elevator came down. And he said, “Is everything all right?” And started walking with the prisoner. And Wiggins said that he doesn’t recall whether he answered him or whether--I mean it just happened so quickly, or whether he went out ahead of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the armored car people told of the change of plans?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was proposed to get the truck out of the way?

Chief BATCHELOR. The driver was in the truck. I would have shouted to him.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the plan, that you were to call to him?

Chief BATCHELOR. This wasn’t a plan. This is what I would have done. He was there. I knew he was there. And as soon as I ran up to close the thing, why I would have shouted. But after the shooting, I didn’t shout, and the truck wasn’t even moved. We had to move it to let the ambulance out.