Chapter VI: Front Matter (6)

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And immediately--the same day?

Mr. HALL. Immediately afterwards; it probably actually was extended after midnight that night.

Mr. HUBERT. What you have handed me as being your notes is really a log?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. It’s a log showing the times, the date, who was present, and specifically the times and what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m going to mark it for the purpose of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of C. Hay Hall.” On the first page I am signing my name below that. There is a second page which I am initialing in the lower right-hand corner and a third page which I am initialing in the right hand corner, and Mr. Hall, you have been kind enough to supply me with two extra copies which I thank you for, but I will just mark the one for identification, and I think you have already testified concerning what it is.

Mr. HALL. Back to your previous question as to whether this denial on the part of Ruby was before or after his conference with an attorney, Mr. Tom Howard, I believe his conference with Mr. Howard was after that denial?

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had refused to tell you he got in, in effect?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to having talked with Mr. Howard?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I based that on the time he went there, because his conference with Mr. Howard was almost 2 o’clock and there was only--a majority of the interview had been conducted before then.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was--an hour and 15 minutes it had been going on already?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking freely to you?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if you will refer again to what I have marked as Exhibit No. 2, I notice that Ruby at that time mentions a girl by the name of Karen Bennett of Fort Worth and about sending her a telegram. There is no mention in this report of having received a telephone call from her. Am I correct, then, in my assumption that he did not tell you that at that time?

Mr. HALL. He did not tell me that at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that he did not tell you that the girl had called him at that time--he did not tell you at that time that the girl had called him on the night before?

Mr. HALL. That’s true. He did not tell me at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Referring again to Exhibit No. 2 and page 15 thereof, in the very last paragraph, I wonder if you could clarify for us just what he meant there? You say that this is what Ruby advised you--“He said that sometime after sending the telegram he entered the basement building where the police department is located, entering from the Main Street side. Ruby did not wish to say how he got into the basement or at what time he entered.”

We were a bit confused about that and wanted to get some clarification, because we don’t know if he admitted then that he did go down the ramp, but didn’t want to say anything more about it, or left any question open as to how he got in there. I mean, there is the possibility that there was another Main Street entrance that he could get in. As I understand it, really, he didn’t deny, from what you gather, he went in through the ramp that goes down to the basement, but that is as far as he would go?

Mr. HALL. Yes; he would not give any details as to how he got in or what time--how he went about getting into the ramp to the basement from the Main Street side, but he did admit entering the basement from the Main Street side, and that ramp is the only way to get into it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to show you another document which purports to be a report of an interview of Jack Ruby by you, Mr. Hall, and Mr. Clements--Manning C. Clements on December 12, 1963. For the purpose of identifying that document, as I understood your testimony about it later, I have marked it on the first page as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, deposition of C. Ray Hall,” and I have signed my name below that and I have marked each of the other pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. That document is the report of an interview of December 21, 1963, and runs from page 2 to the top of page 17 of the Clements’ report of January 8, 1964.

Now, I would like you to tell us the circumstances of that interview, how it was arranged, who was present when it started and when it ended and so forth.

Mr. HALL. We had arranged for this interview with Mr. Melvin Belli, the attorney for Jack Ruby, who granted permission for this interview. The interview was held in an interview room located on floor 6-M of the Dallas County Jail in Dallas, Tex. Mr. Melvin Belli of San Francisco, Calif., Mr. Joe Tonahill of Jasper, Tex., Mr. Sam Brody of Los Angeles, Calif., and Mr. William Choulos, [spelling] C-h-o-u-l-o-s, of San Francisco, Calif., were present at the time Special Agent Manning C. Clements and I interviewed Jack Ruby.

Mr. Belli introduced Mr. Brody and Mr. Choulos as members of Mr. Belli’s staff. This interview with Ruby commenced at 1:50 p.m. on December 21, 1963, and concluded at 5 o’clock p.m. on December 21, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the attorneys present all through that period, sir?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; during the entire time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they take part in the interview at all in any active way?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any suggestions or make any objections?

Mr. HALL. I recall that at the beginning of the interview with Jack Ruby I advised Mr. Ruby that he did not have to make any statements and that he was represented by his attorneys who were present at the time of the interview and that any statements he made during this interview could be used against him in a court of law. At that time Mr. Tonahill objected to that statement, that the statements could be used against him in a court of law, and advised me under the Texas law that Mr. Ruby was under arrest and that oral statements could not be used against him in the court of law and that he would not waive such rights, but he would consent to the interview and that Ruby would answer any questions, and Mr. Belli told Ruby to go ahead and answer any questions, and assured Mr. Ruby that he was present and would look after his interests and would be awake during the entire time of the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you conduct this in sort of a question and answer form, or did you more or less tell him to tell it in his own story?

Mr. HALL. It was primarily in a question and answer form. However, in answering a question, sometimes Ruby would continue and answer the question and continue furnishing other information and as long as he talked I just made notes and then asked other questions.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Clements was present the whole time too?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make notes also?

Mr. HALL. We actually divided up this interview. I asked the questions during the first part, and in this Exhibit No. 3, page 12, at the beginning of the last paragraph on that page, Mr. Clements asked the questions and made the notes for the rest of this. That material preceding that, I asked the questions and made the notes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the notes that you made and that Mr. Clements made?

Mr. HALL. As soon as I recorded this interview for my part of the interview on December 23, 1963, I destroyed my notes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the standard procedure?

Mr. HALL. That is in accordance with the standard procedure.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did with his?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. If he followed the standard practice, he would have done the same thing too?

Mr. HALL. It is optional--he may have retained them, but it is not necessary for him to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were present when he was interviewing and he was present when you were interviewing?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I was present--both of us were present during the entire interview from 1:50 p.m. until 5 o’clock p.m., except for about a minute--I stepped out to get a drink of water at the time Mr. Clements commenced his interview--just outside--and returned immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice on page 12, which I think would have been as you described it, part of your interview, you have there what purports to be a direct quote in the sense that the language is contained in that middle paragraph in quotation marks?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean that you actually wrote those words down, or is that a paraphrase too?

Mr. HALL. I wrote his exact words down there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you put them in quotation marks in the report means you actually wrote the words down, and that is why you put quotation marks?

Mr. HALL. That’s right; that’s why I put the quotation marks.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was a paraphrase, in a sense of what he is telling you?

Mr. HALL. It is in the third person and the others were in the first person language; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you put language in quotes that way, actually take it down, did you or did you here read it back to him?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess he had to slow down or something so that you could get it, or were you using shorthand?

Mr. HALL. I used some shorthand, yes, sir; but primarily I was making actual notes. In something I thought was extremely pertinent, I took down his exact words.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this report ever shown to him or to his attorneys later?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. If you would refer to page 10 of Exhibit No. 3, that is to say, the interview of December 21, in the middle paragraph you will note that here Ruby does refer to a call from “Little Lynn,” who has been identified as Karen Bennett, on the morning of November 24, and following that, there is a statement that he told you on Friday night, November 22, he had to give her $5 so she could get home--is that what he told you?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at, that is not a typographical error?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; because--I said, “Friday night,” although that is what he told me, but if you will notice on page 1 of this exhibit when he is describing the incident where Little Lynn became sick, he said it was either on November 20 or November 21, so the exact days--it’s possible that he was not sure of the exact dates, but this is what he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what he told you? That’s what I wanted to get straight.

Mr. HALL. That’s what he told me because I had Friday, November 22, in my notes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you appeared at the bond hearing in January and at that time apparently you were asked a series of questions relating to what Ruby had said to you about his activities on the morning of November 24, and you were asked whether he told you that he got up about 10, at least, ate breakfast, went downstairs and talked to his next door neighbor about building a dog fence. And then you asked to refer to your notes and they told you you could, but you said, “I don’t have in my notes the time he got up.” On the next page they had repeated that about the next door neighbor and the dog fence that they were talking about and then you stated, “He told me he talked to a next door neighbor. I don’t recall him telling me about a fence.” Now, did he mention who that neighbor was--is that the one that is referred to----

Mr. HALL. He referred to this next door neighbor as the father-in-law of Police Officer Buddy Munster.

Mr. HUBERT. And he said that he had talked to him but he didn’t talk to him about a dog fence?

Mr. HALL. That was my testimony.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HALL. That was my testimony which is recorded on there.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s right; I just wanted to identify it with that.

Mr. HALL. With your exhibits here.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony when you said he did talk to you about a next door neighbor but you didn’t recall him talking to you about a fence or a dog fence is actually a part of your report on page 10 of Exhibit No. 3, the very last paragraph?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is a fact that he didn’t say anything about a dog fence or talking to this man about a dog fence, but merely talking to him?

Mr. HALL. He just made this statement as he drove out of his driveway he stopped and talked to his neighbor, name unknown, but who is the father-in-law of Police Officer Buddy Munster.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you referred to; is that it?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. If you wish to know who that neighbor was--he is Mr. J. Doyle Stokes or J. D. Stokes and he lives at 213 South Ewing. Now, Mr. Ruby did not give me that information.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a statement from him?

Mr. HALL. Yes; he was interviewed and you will find it in an interview under the name of Doyle Stokes.

Mr. HUBERT. He lives at 213 South Ewing Street and his real name is Jefferson D. Stokes; is that correct?

Mr. HALL. I’m not sure--his name is J. D. Stokes, I’m not sure whether the J. stands for Jefferson, but the D. stands for Doyle.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at the trial on the merits too; that is to say, the main trial in February and March?

Mr. HALL. Of Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I was not subpenaed.

Mr. HUBERT. They only called you for this bond hearing?

Mr. HALL. I was subpenaed at several of the hearings, but this bond hearing is the only court hearing of any type that I actually testified in.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Clements called to your knowledge?

Mr. HALL. During the trial?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HALL. I’m not positive, but I don’t believe he testified during it or at any of the hearings.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the State officials confer with you for the purpose of using you as witnesses to what Ruby had told you?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reason why?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all, Mr. Hall. Have you anything else you would like to add?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I’ll try to answer any questions you may have.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I have any more. That clarifies it all. Thank you, sir.

Mr. HALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall, prior to the beginning of this deposition, you and I had not met in fact nor had we conversed in any way at all?

Mr. HALL. That’s correct. As far as I know, I have never seen you before I entered this room.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we did speak about some of the acquaintances I knew many years ago in the FBI, but we did not speak about anything concerning this deposition at all?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; we had no conversation concerning this matter that you are connected with at anytime except during the time you were taking this deposition.

Mr. HUBERT. And so that all of our contact as to this whole matter has been a matter of record?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all, and I thank you very much.

Mr. HALL. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR

The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 9:15 a.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kantor, as you know, the Commission has been set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, and a joint resolution of Congress, which was enacted on November 29 of last year. The Commission has been directed to inquire into and evaluate the evidence with respect to the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today because, from the interview that you have provided to the FBI it appears that you would have some information which would bear upon the activities of Jack Ruby, and the events that transpired between the time the President was assassinated and the time that Ruby shot Oswald. I believe that you received a letter from us.

Mr. KANTOR. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state for the record when you received the letter?

Mr. KANTOR. I want to make sure. I am not sure whether it was Thursday or Friday morning. The letter was dated May 28. I received it on the 29th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice by mail, and I believe that has been complied with.

Mr. KANTOR. There is something in the letter, though, I would like to bring up. It says, “The Commission is authorized to pay you the same fees as are paid to witnesses whose depositions are taken in connection with”--et cetera. I want to waive any fee which would be connected with this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You are certainly entitled to it. It is minimal, I can assure you. Do you have any other questions that you want to ask before we get started?

Mr. KANTOR. No, none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KANTOR. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, my first name is Seth, last name is Kantor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. KANTOR. I live at 4325 Maple Avenue, Bethesda.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us your birth date, please?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. January 9, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. KANTOR. I am married.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at present?

Mr. KANTOR. I am a newspaper writer. I am employed by Scripps-Howard Newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular paper, or by the chain itself?

Mr. KANTOR. I am correspondent for Texas papers, and write for all of our papers as well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed with Scripps-Howard?

Mr. KANTOR. A total of 5 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your employment before that?

Mr. KANTOR. I was on the Dallas Times Herald, in Dallas, Tex., intermittently. I was on the Fort Worth Press, which is a Scripps-Howard paper. And then went to the Dallas Times Herald. And then came here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been in Washington for 5 years, is that right?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I have been in Washington for 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The 5-year period includes some time with the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. KANTOR. With the Fort Worth Press, and with the Denver Rocky Mountain News, which are both Scripps-Howard papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when did you work for the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. KANTOR. I worked for the Times Herald from September 1960 until May 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before September 1960?

Mr. KANTOR. I was with the Fort Worth Press.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, then, the 5 years we have covered are the total time you have been in the newspaper business.

Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I have been in the newspaper business about 18 years, but in the employ of Scripps-Howard for 5.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Can you just give us a general idea where you have worked in those 18 years?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. With the Associated Press in Detroit, and on the Lamar, Colo., Daily News, and the Pueblo, Colo., Chieftain, the Denver Rocky Mountain News. And I spent 5 years as a magazine writer for magazines published in New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you live in Dallas at some time? Is that correct?

Mr. KANTOR. For a 2-year period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was that 2-year period? Can you tell us when it began and when it ended?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. September 1960 until May 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During those months, did you have occasion to meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him before September 1960?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I had not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was within a very few months after I joined the Times Herald. I was a feature writer for the paper. I think by nature of the stories that I wrote, I sort of attracted Jack Ruby. He came up to my desk one day and introduced himself and said that he owned a club or clubs in town, and that he thought he might have some stories for me from time to time, and he did.

Over the next several months, he provided me with maybe as many as half-a-dozen feature stories, on characters in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what those stories are?

Mr. KANTOR. One was with an entertainer in his club, a lady who managed to charm snakes while she was stripping. She was also a housewife in the suburbs by day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that story published?

Mr. KANTOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just go through these 6 stories, if you would, and tell us what they were, and if they were or were not published.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, each was published. I might have some difficulty remembering them at this point.

I remember a limbo dancer who he brought up from the Caribbean and said that he was helping in getting his citizenship. I did a story with the limbo dancer. We got a picture of him at the U.S. Naturalization Service office in Dallas passing under a low bar.

I did a lot of stories. I am really not sure off the top of my head. I wish I could have gotten out some old clips and prepared for this, if I had realized. But they were stories of that nature, anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your best estimate is that there would have been about half-a-dozen stories that you wrote?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did any of the stories that you wrote have to do with Jack Ruby himself?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I never wrote about him. I never went into either of his places.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever provide any publicity for Jack?

Mr. KANTOR. None, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you never went into any of his clubs. I take it by that you also did not know him on a social basis.

Mr. KANTOR. Did not know him on a social basis, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you would see him from time to time, about how long would it be that you would talk with him?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, it would vary. There was a photographer on the paper, for instance, who was doing some outside work for Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his name?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. His name is Pete Fisher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the work that he was doing for him?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know everything he was doing for him, but I believe he was making some stock publicity shots of the dancers in the club, the downtown club. And I well remember on one of the occasions that Jack was in the office about 7 or 8 o’clock one night to see Pete Fisher, and I was working late. I talked with Jack probably for more than an hour or so.

I don’t know how many times I talked to him altogether, or how long each time period was. But they ranged, I guess, from a few minutes to about an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to meet him outside of your business?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Mr. Ruby ever talk to you about himself, or about his background, or his clubs?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This one occasion I mentioned, when he was in the office late in the day, he had a young man with him who, I believe, he said was a nephew. At any rate, it was a relative. And he said that he was trying to help the boy and get him an education, and that he, himself, had not had too much of an education, and he felt that--he was sorry he wound up in the girlie show business. He wished that he had a more substantial occupation.

And, at that time, I recall he told me about growing up in Chicago, and that things were pretty hard for him, and that he had pulled himself up by the bootstraps and still would prefer to be out of the business he was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Ruby have any characteristic speech pattern that you recall? Anything unusual about his speech or noticeable?

Mr. KANTOR. I guess he had a very slight lisp, perhaps--not very strong, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his choice of words? Was he a man who was given to talking in grandiose terms or using profanity?

Mr. KANTOR. If he used profanity, it doesn’t register with me. He was an effusive person. Obviously when he liked somebody or something, he liked that person or that thing very much. And if he didn’t, he portrayed it rather strongly, also. And his facial expressions would change, depending on what he was talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular things that he expressed great like or dislike for?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I remember one time he told me that he had met a movie star--and I honestly don’t remember her name, except that she was sort of on the way down--out at Love Field, somewhere around 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning. He was out there, for whatever reason I don’t know. And he talked to her for a period of time until her plane was ready. She was just going through. And he had gotten a promise from her to appear at his club. He was just ecstatic about this. He thought this was the greatest thing in the world. He was full of praise for her, because she stopped and talked with him, without knowing him at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were in Dallas, were you not, at the time that President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us where you were at the approximate time that the shots were fired?

Mr. KANTOR. I was in the motorcade. I was in the White House Press Bus No. 2. This was about--I don’t know--11 vehicles back, or some such.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in a position where you could hear the shots or see any of the actions?

Mr. KANTOR. I heard the last two shots. I didn’t know there were three shots until some time later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after the shots were fired, what did you do?

Mr. KANTOR. We tried to get off the bus to see what had happened, but we were not allowed to, and the bus went at a high rate of speed out to the Dallas Trade Mart. There we were let out at a side entrance, and we still had no word of anything. We raced up four flights to a press office up there, and still could not find out what happened. So we raced down the four flights again.

One of the reporters--I don’t know who--got on the phone and contacted the Dallas police, and talked to Chief Stevenson and discovered that the President had been shot and had been taken to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here just a minute. Do you recall the route that you took from the scene of the shooting to the Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. We went on to the Stemmons Expressway immediately, and took the expressway to a point immediately adjacent to the trade mart. I don’t know what the little road is that goes off of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say that it took you to drive from the scene of the shooting to the trade mart?

Mr. KANTOR. We were traveling at a speed of about 65–70 miles an hour. I guess it would be 4 or 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did it take from the time you got out of that bus and ran up and down your four flights of stairs until the one press representative was able to make a telephone call?

Mr. KANTOR. I would guess about another 4 or 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after he made the telephone call, what happened--what did you do?

Mr. KANTOR. I shouted to a couple of the other reporters that I was familiar enough with Dallas and would get a taxicab. And someone who was there to attend the function for the President overheard me and volunteered the service of his station wagon. He gave us his name, but I didn’t write it down, and don’t remember it.

About eight of us got into the station wagon. And outside of the reporters who were in the pool car behind the President, we were the first group of reporters to arrive at the hospital.

This gentleman who drove us there in a station wagon broke an awful lot of traffic rules, and even went against traffic at a couple of points, driving on the wrong side of the street. He took us across a field, I remember, at one point. We made it there very quickly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this be a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, or 5 minutes?

Mr. KANTOR. I would guess 2 or 3 minutes, because Parkland Hospital, especially if you take shortcuts like that, is very close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this man park and let you out, or did the vehicle just let you out and go on?

Mr. KANTOR. We were waved on to the emergency entrance side of Parkland by a policeman, and the driver let us out of the car, I would guess, 25 yards from the entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would do this. I am going to hand you a pad of paper here and a pencil, and ask you if in a rough fashion you can sketch out where you were in relationship to Parkland Hospital, and draw on there a sufficient enough outline to indicate so that we can talk from here on about the diagram and where you went from time to time.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, now, you don’t mean where I was in relationship to Parkland Hospital at the time of the shooting?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean once--we have arrived at the scene now, and the man has let you out about 25 yards from the entrance. Why don’t we start with the diagram that shows that area, and would have enough detail in it to show the other areas you went to at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. Well, roughly, at least as a start----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let me mark this. I will put a notation down here. I am going to mark this yellow sheet of legal size paper “Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, referring to Exhibit No. 1, Mr. Kantor, why don’t you go ahead and fill in the details and talk as you think is appropriate.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. We were waved in off of Harry Hines Boulevard, by an officer, which led us on a path on the southern side of the hospital to a point where the emergency entrance is on the western side. We were let out of the station wagon about 25 yards, I would guess, directly opposite the emergency entranceway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have marked that--shall we call that point 1 on the diagram. Mark that point 1, where you were let out.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do from there?

Mr. KANTOR. I remember that I was one of the reporters who hollered an assurance to the driver of the car that he could stay with us. He was worried about what would happen to him and his car. And he wanted, also, to know what was going on. But I left him cold. I ran as fast as I could to the front of the emergency entranceway, where I saw the President’s limousine. There I saw a great deposit of blood on the ground next to it, on the right-hand side of the car.

Senator Ralph Yarborough, of Texas, was standing very close by, probably 4 or 5 yards away. And I went up to him and asked him what had happened, and he was reluctant to tell me what he had seen, although subsequently he told me he had seen enough to know that the President was dead, or in a dying condition. But he gave me several comments which would lead me to believe that a horrible thing had happened. And I told him that I absolutely had to get in.

He led me to a police officer standing in front of the emergency door and told the officer that I was with the party, and I produced my White House credentials. And the officer let me in.

I took up search for a telephone. I saw Merriman Smith of United Press International using a phone at a desk in a hallway, and went past him, down a hallway just a very short distance to where I found a phone in a booth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a pay telephone?

Mr. KANTOR. No; to my best recollection it was not. I don’t really remember for sure--but I don’t believe it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the phone was on the first floor of Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. And I had difficulty reaching Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here. Did you have to go through a hospital operator?

Mr. KANTOR. I am just trying to remember. I don’t think it was a pay phone, and I think my trouble was dialing and getting out. I made several attempts at it, as I recall, and finally got a Dallas long-distance operator, who put me through to Washington. I think that is where the problem had been--just getting out. And I telephoned what I could to the Scripps-Howard office in Washington--that is, the little bit I had seen, and the comments I had gotten from Senator Yarborough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you made this telephone call, what was your impression as to the condition of the President?

Mr. KANTOR. I had no idea, beyond the fact that I had seen the blood and that Senator Yarborough had told me that something very terrible had happened.

While on the phone, I discovered that I was immediately across the hall from a door which led from the emergency area. I saw Mrs. Johnson being led out, I believe, on the arm of a Secret Service man on one side and on the arm of Representative Jack Brooks, of Texas, on the other. And I saw a priest coming out of this area--out of this doorway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to describe what was behind that door, other than it was an emergency door?

Mr. KANTOR. I attempted actually to go in before I got on the phone, and the Secret Service man who was stationed there told me I couldn’t go in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later find out what was in that area?

Mr. KANTOR. Not exactly. A few days later I got a description of what the emergency area was like inside. But I don’t know exactly which part of it I was facing at the time I was on the telephone. I was dictating a story in to Jim Lucas of Scripps-Howard, and just describing things as I saw them unfold in the hallway at that point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation with Mr. Lucas last?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, counting the time that it took me to get Washington, and my story dictated, I would say about 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you make a long-distance telephone call to your home office, do you use a credit card, or is there some other indication used by the telephone company for billing purposes?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I just called direct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us the telephone number that you called in Washington?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I called District 7-7750.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other Scripps-Howard representatives at Parkland Hospital at the time you made this call?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I was the only person on the trip for Scripps-Howard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask for any particular person? Was it a station-to-station call?

Mr. KANTOR. It was a station-to-station call, and the switchboard operator gave me a man by the name of Charles Egger, who is managing editor of Scripps-Howard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you had completed that telephone call, what did you do?

Mr. KANTOR. I walked into the hall where I saw two Texas Congressmen who were on the trip, Representatives Henry Gonzalez and Albert Thomas, standing together. They were immobile, and they were standing against a wall. I asked them for whatever they could tell me. Henry Gonzalez appeared to be unable to speak. At least he did not speak. And Albert Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been brought in for the President.

That was the first I knew that the President had been hit in the head. It was at that point, when Malcolm Kilduff, who was in charge of press arrangements for the White House on the trip, came behind me and just touched my back as he passed by, and he said, “Come with me, I have an announcement to make.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?

Mr. KANTOR. I followed him out of the emergency door and on to the grass. He was accompanied by Merriman Smith, who was incessantly asking for whatever news there was without waiting to go where Kilduff was going, and another man with him was--I am sorry, I have forgotten his name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it is actually in one of your earlier interviews. We will get to that later.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. At any rate, I was directly behind Kilduff, who was moving rapidly. And we went on to the grass and up a little hill and around the corner of the hospital, moving from west to south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back up towards Harry Hines Boulevard?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. We went in an entranceway. I am not sure whether it was the main entrance of the hospital or whether there is a door near the main entrance of the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you mark on the diagram there where the main entrance is?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes--No. 2?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just write “Main Entrance.” We will use the numbers for your position.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. I followed Mr. Kilduff up a flight of stairs to the second floor, and down one or two hallways, until we came to the room where he made the announcement that the President had died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did the announcement take?

Mr. KANTOR. The announcement was very brief. I don’t know actually where all the other reporters came from. There were quite a number of reporters in the room already. And as best as I understand it, there were a vast number of reporters who never got into the hospital in the emergency area, and had moved into this second floor room for the announcement.

At any rate, everybody seemed ready for an announcement at the time that Mr. Kilduff got there. And so the announcement itself took a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the announcement was made, had you talked with other reporters or other people in the area so that you were able to tell whether there was any prevailing attitude or rumors circulating around as to the condition of the President?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I had no opportunity. The only people I talked to were the two Texas Congressmen, as I got off the phone, and that was the only word I had with anyone until the announcement came from Malcolm.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you didn’t, yourself, even have any firm expectation as to what the announcement of Kilduff would be?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I knew it was a rather grim situation, but I didn’t know how grim.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a prepared statement handed out?

Mr. KANTOR. No; it was not. He made the statement under trying circumstances. His voice was quivering. He was leaning on a table which is used by a teacher in the classroom, which was being used as an emergency press headquarters. With great difficulty he made the announcement that the President had died at about 1 o’clock, which would have been a half hour before he was making the announcement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of the announcement at 1:30?

Mr. KANTOR. I was following my watch very closely because it was a matter of newspaper deadlines, especially for our Texas papers. The reason I had called Washington was because I felt that I could not begin calling our three papers in Texas individually, and I felt that from Washington the story could be related to all 18 of our papers. And so I was watching the time closely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report to your Washington office that the time of the announcement had been 1:30?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe I did. And if I didn’t, the wire services were doing that at the same time. But Mr. Kilduff said that he would have further announcements to make in--I think he established the time as 10 minutes. And told us to make our phone calls or do what we had to do, and return to this room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make a phone call?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I went down the hall. There were no phones set up for us, of course. We were going into whatever offices we could find with available phones. I went into an office, a large office, which had three nurses in it, and asked if I could use one of their phones. And, again, I had trouble getting out.

After trying over and over, I managed to talk to Mr. Egger again and tell him. And by now he was concerned with the Vice President, what was going to happen there, and should the office send another man down to start following Mr. Johnson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation last?

Mr. KANTOR. Probably took me 5 minutes to get out, and the conversation was about 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then did you return to Mr. Kilduff for further announcements?

Mr. KANTOR. I returned to the room, and Mr. Kilduff, to the best of my recollection, was not there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you made your telephone call was it before you walked outside of Parkland Hospital again?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, upon later recollection I thought that it was about 10 to 15 minutes, because we went back into the makeshift pressroom and--I really am not sure whether Mr. Kilduff was there or not.

But Bill Stinson, who was--who is an aide to Governor John Connally, came in dressed in a doctor’s uniform--he had just come from the emergency room, and was mistaken for being a doctor. And I remember Kilduff or someone talking to him before Stinson talked to us to tell us about the Governor’s condition. I remember Kilduff saying, “1 o’clock, 1 o’clock, 1 o’clock.” I didn’t know what significance that had. So I guess that Malcolm Kilduff was there when we returned.

Wayne Hawks, of the transportation staff of the White House, interrupted and said that a pool was needed immediately, and about four or five of us, perhaps as many as seven people altogether, followed him and ran down a stairway towards the main entranceway. I didn’t know what a pool was needed for, and I was very reluctant to leave the hospital. But when I got outside in the main entrance area, I saw the Texas congressional delegation----

Mr. GRIFFIN. About where was that? Put a number on the diagram, please.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; the sidewalk curved, somehow, like this, and the cars were stretched along this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me indicate for the record that you have placed a No. “2” on the diagram, and that you have made a curved line that indicates a walk, and some marks alongside it to represent the automobiles. Go ahead.

Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to Henry Gonzalez, who was holding a brown paper bag in his hand. He told me that it was the effects of Governor Connally. Mr. Gonzalez was still badly shaken.

And I talked to Senator Yarborough again. And he said that the group was going to the airport immediately.

And I knew then that the pool was formed to go out to the airport. However, I still didn’t want to leave the hospital, because I know that my office was concerned with what was going to happen to Mr. Johnson.

At the same time, I saw Mr. and Mrs. Johnson closely guarded coming out of the hospital, completely surrounded by men, and put into a car, and they sped away.

I spoke to the mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell. He was unable to furnish me with any information as to what was going to happen. I turned then and went back up to the second floor.

Now, as I had told the FBI, it was either at this point or it was at a point originally when I went up behind Malcolm Kilduff that I spoke with Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you to place on the map approximately where you were the first time that you think you might have seen Jack Ruby--if you would place a No. “3” on the map where you were the first time when you think you might have seen Ruby.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. It was inside the building, but just barely inside. It was just immediately inside the doorway. I am not sure, as I said, whether there was a small door next to the main entrance itself, or whether this occurred just inside the main entrance. But it seems to me it was----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me suggest that maybe what you could do is use two numbers, a 3-A and 3-B, to indicate the two places the first time you think you might have seen Ruby.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, so far as I remember, it would--I mean I am talking about the same place in both instances.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me----

Mr. KANTOR. I am just not sure in my memory of the physical makeup of this entranceway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight, then. The first time you saw Ruby, before you went up to Mr. Kilduff’s press conference----

Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; what I am saying is I only saw him once and talked to him that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand. You are not sure whether you saw him before or after the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you saw him the first time, are you uncertain as to whether--as to which door it was that you saw him by?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I am uncertain as to which door I went in. And as I went in the door, that is where he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I am asking you to do, then, is indicate by the Nos. 3-A and 3-B where these two doors might have been that you are uncertain about, having reference to the time you went into the building just before the press conference.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was the same door both times. It is just that I am unsure where that door is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KANTOR. But it is in this main entrance area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it----

Mr. KANTOR. I would have to just guess, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you are saying that you feel that the door was not on that portion of the entranceway towards Harry Hines Boulevard, or am I mistaken about that? I want to try to limit this somewhere as to what area you think this might have been in.

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall going past the main entranceway, going towards Harry Hines Boulevard. It seems to me that it either was right at the main entrance, or a door perhaps adjacent to the main entrance, because it seems like it was a small entranceway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you again then--why don’t you place a 3-A where this small door before the main entranceway might have been, and a 3-B generally indicating the main entranceway.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything in particular about the doorway that you were in--that you were near at the time you thought you saw Ruby that sticks out in your mind?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, three things. It was not a large doorway keeps sticking in my mind--that is why I have doubts about it being right in the main entrance. Also there were stairs within, a very few steps, 5 to 10 steps, probably, within the doorway there was a stairway going up. And, thirdly, I recall that beside Jack Ruby there were nurses and there were people who looked like interns--at any rate they were doctors, dressed in white.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if during the period you were at Parkland Hospital, as you drove into Parkland Hospital and at the time you left, if this entranceway to the hospital by Harry Hines Boulevard was blocked or guarded in any way to prevent the entrance of normal private vehicles?

Mr. KANTOR. It appeared to be that way as we came up. On the other hand, the driver of our vehicle, at our urging, leaned out of his window and hollered “Press.” Perhaps he said White House Press. At any rate, the officer immediately in our way backed off and waved us in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to the main entranceway of the hospital, where would parking facilities be in relationship to that main entranceway for normal people visiting the hospital on regular business?

Mr. KANTOR. Even when I was a newspaperman in Dallas, I always went to the emergency area when I had to go to the hospital, because it was relative to a story. I am not totally sure about this area. There is a parking area--because I can remember buses coming in and out of this area here. But it seems to me it would be set back on the opposite side, and that this would be the throughway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have drawn a line perpendicular to Harry Hines Boulevard, paralleling the side of Parkland Hospital that the main entrance is on, and then to--would that be the south of that line?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed some more hashmarks, and you think there is where the general parking area was.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; it is very vague to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We can check this ourselves. I am trying to get some idea where a man like Ruby would have parked his automobile to get to the place where you think you saw him.

Well, now, what happened----

Mr. KANTOR. Well, excuse me. I am sorry. If that is what you are getting at.

There is a parking area on the west side, also, as best I can remember, because, it seems to me that there were a great number of cars in the area where we were first let out of the station wagon.