Chapter XLVI: Front Matter (46)

Mr. HUBERT. It was only later that you related the two occasions that you saw the man you believed to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw Jack Ruby in the assembly room, you did not go through the mental process of saying, “Oh, this is the man I saw earlier”?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed differently at that time?

Mr. JENKINS. The man I saw then had on what appeared to be a checked sportcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?

Mr. JENKINS. No that. I noticed he was rather light complexioned; and dark hair.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do or say anything that directed your attention to him?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes. The exact words, I don’t recall. I was stationed just inside the door behind the television camera, and this was in front of the cables and closer to the door than most of the newsmen, and I got there on purpose, because Pate and Kunkle were sitting on the floor directly in front of the desk where we figured Henry Wade was going to make his presentation, or whoever was going to speak about Oswald, and also was right in front of the lineup screen. So I stationed myself near the door so I could break first while they were getting tape recordings and interviews, whatever was necessary.

The room was not filled yet with newsmen, but that man whose remark caught my attention, was standing to my left and behind me on a table, and he had a small pad perhaps like a spiral pad in his hand, and there was a girl news correspondent--who she was or who she worked for, I don’t know--but he said something to the effect that “Come on up here with me, it will be easier for you to see what is going on. Come on up here. There is room. You won’t have to fight the crowd.” Something to this effect. I can’t give any direct quotes, because it was just something in passing, but I did notice him at the time, and it seems to me the man was smiling at the time and put his hand down to help the girl get up.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the man you believe to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. That is the man I believe to be Jack Ruby. In fact, I am more sure of this than of the first person whom I think was Jack Ruby. The image is a lot clearer in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything else?

Mr. JENKINS. Not after that. I heard nothing. Paid no more attention to him.

It was just a matter of 2 or 3 minutes before the entire room, front end especially, was jampacked with cameramen and newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. This would have been when Oswald came?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes. This was before Oswald came in the room.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Jenkins, I don’t believe that there has been any conversation between us previous to the beginning of the recordation of this deposition which has not subsequently become a part of the deposition, isn’t that correct, sir?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. JENKINS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF SPEEDY JOHNSON

The testimony of Speedy Johnson was taken at 9 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Speedy Johnson. Mr. Johnson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Johnson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter request addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date upon that letter, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. The date on the letter, or the postmark on the envelope?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the date on the letter.

Mr. JOHNSON. June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. It asks you to appear on a date subsequent to that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Subsequent to that, which would be June 26, 1964, at 9:15 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. It turned out that you were out of the city, or that didn’t reach you in time for that deposition?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. As a matter of fact, you are right. It was forwarded to me three times.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are appearing here tonight by virtue of that letter?

Mr. JOHNSON. I called when I came back to my headquarters in Houston--Standby One--when I got back.

Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is this. Under the rules of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before their deposition can be taken. That written notice was given to you a long time ago, but it specified a date different from today, you see.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So I want to ask you--the rules of the Commission also provide that a person may waive the written notice.

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. So assuming there is no written notice for you to appear today, assuming that the written notice of June 22 didn’t apply to today, I ask you if you are willing to waive the written notice and have your deposition taken now?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do now.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to waive it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you let me administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Now your name is?

Mr. JOHNSON. Speedy Johnson.

Mr. HUBERT. Speedy Johnson, I understand from what you have told me, sir, that that originally was a nickname?

Mr. JOHNSON. And since have legalized.

Mr. HUBERT. You since have legalized it in the State of Texas and the city of Dallas so that your actual name is Speedy Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. Now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. 708 Kipling, Houston, Tex., 77006.

Mr. HUBERT. You say to us that you are going to move, so that in case we want to reach you, you will be at another address?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us that address?

Mr. JOHNSON. 4300 Graustark, Houston, Tex., on Friday of this week, which will be the 16th, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. The 17th.

Mr. JOHNSON. 17th, yes, sir. The only reason for that is a matter of nicer living quarters and all that jazz.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the city of Dallas on November 23, 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation at that time, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. Broker.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of broker?

Mr. JOHNSON. And manufacturers agent.

Mr. HUBERT. Broker for what product?

Mr. JOHNSON. For what product? I have 14 years been a broker for any kind of product so long as it was honest. Aircraft, more specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned----

Mr. JOHNSON. Manufacturers agent, a sideline.

Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the sidelines?

Mr. JOHNSON. Leather goods; artificial flowers; cutlery; and dishes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to November 23, 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. I met him one time prior to the 23d of November.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that, approximately? Was it a matter of months, or years?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir, months. June or July.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Of 1963, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?

Mr. JOHNSON. At his place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. JOHNSON. At the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you a guest there? That is to say, you were a paying customer or guest?

Mr. JOHNSON. Paying customer initially. Turned out he would not let me pay the bill. He paid the bill. In other words, it was $9 or $10, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the reason why he stated he would pay your bill?

Mr. JOHNSON. No reason. He didn’t give me any reason.

Mr. HUBERT. He just said you couldn’t pay and didn’t want to take your money?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there alone or with someone else?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I was by myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him while you were at the club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Very briefly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. JOHNSON. How long did I stay there?

Mr. HUBERT. At the club that night?

Mr. JOHNSON. Less than an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it seem odd to you that he wouldn’t let you pay in view of the fact that you hadn’t known him before and that you had not talked to him very much?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, simply because he met me at the door. He shook hands with me at the door and invited me to have a drink. As a matter of fact, took me to the table and he ordered a drink, but the lady brought it over. A lady, I don’t know who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. A waitress?

Mr. JOHNSON. The waitress brought the drink to the table. Then he came and sat at the table for perhaps 10 minutes, and that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Then when it came time to pay, the waitress wouldn’t accept your money, or what was the situation?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. When it came time to pay, when I got to the cash register, the lady at the cash register said, “No, it is already paid.”

Mr. HUBERT. You said something about $9 or $10?

Mr. JOHNSON. Less than $10. I don’t remember; that is a long time ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there about an hour, and how many drinks did you have?

Mr. JOHNSON. Two. But he had a cover charge and a floor show sort of charge thing. I don’t remember frankly what the costs were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually take out some money to pay him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I took out a $10 bill.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. Do I remember seeing the check?

Mr. HUBERT. Was the check brought over to you at the table?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sure. I carried the check from the table to the cash register, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In what amount was the check for?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember. It was a little more than $9, but less than $10.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a couple of drinks and then there was the door charge, I think?

Mr. JOHNSON. Cover charge.

Mr. HUBERT. Cover charge?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anything collected from you as you came in?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Do you remember the itemization of it?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the one time you saw him prior to November 23, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. November 23 being what?

Mr. HUBERT. The Saturday after the President was shot.

Mr. JOHNSON. Prior to November 23, negative.

Mr. HUBERT. You had seen him the one time you have described?

Mr. JOHNSON. That was the only time I ever seen him. I knew who he was, and that is the extent of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to see him on November 23, and where?

Mr. JOHNSON. Did I have occasion to see him; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I did see him, but you asked me if I had occasion to see him; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did see him? I didn’t mean anything by that.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us the circumstances under which you saw him, and where?

Mr. JOHNSON. The specific address?

Mr. HUBERT. If you don’t know the address, we understand that. Just tell us where the place was.

Mr. JOHNSON. OK; on Saturday afternoon about 1:10 or 1:15 or 1:20, the time I cannot be precise about, at Sol’s Turf Bar, and Jesus Christ, I think it is in the 1200 block or the 1300 block or something on Commerce, but it is across the street from the Dallas Power & Light Co. That would substantiate it. That would isolate it; I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him in there?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was having----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby on that occasion?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you with anyone?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was with Charles Busby and I was with Ivan.

Mr. HUBERT. Ivan Monday?

Mr. JOHNSON. Monday, yes; and a couple of other fellows. I can’t remember at this point who they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Tom Apple?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there?

Mr. JOHNSON. He came in.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went into that place at approximately 1:10 or 1:15; about then?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You went in with Monday?

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t go in with him, but he had just gotten there when I got there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Frank Bellocchio?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there, or did he come in?

Mr. JOHNSON. He came in.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the three of you were together?

Mr. JOHNSON. Three or four.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you in the bar?

Mr. JOHNSON. Where were we in the bar?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we were sitting up at the front end of the bar, which makes a sharp L turn, and I was sitting in the L.

Mr. HUBERT. In the angle?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened as to seeing Jack Ruby on that occasion.

Mr. JOHNSON. Standby One [holding up hand].

Mr. HUBERT. Sir; we can’t do that. It must go on the record anyhow. If there is anything that is bothering you----

Mr. JOHNSON. This has nothing to do with it, or maybe it does. OK; fine.

On a day which I cannot remember, there was published in the Dallas Morning News a full-page ad signed by some man’s name. Whose name, I cannot remember. An open letter to the President.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. JOHNSON. In which that full-page ad said 11 things, answers for us, or words to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the name Bernard Weissman, as you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the ad you were talking about?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is the ad I was talking about.

Mr. HUBERT. Now go ahead.

Mr. JOHNSON. All right. As we sat there having a sandwich and a beer, a dentist from upstairs came walking through and stopped behind us. There were four or five of us, Charlie Busby--well, I have mentioned the names. And he heard us talking.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the dentist?

Mr. JOHNSON. At the moment; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You do know he was a dentist, though?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I will tell you why in a minute. As we sat talking about the ad that had appeared in the paper, the subsequent assassination of the President the day before, and that sort of thing, the dentist came--he may have been a technician--I think he is a dentist--I am positive he is a dentist, but anyway, he came walking through and stopped and stood behind us and overheard the conversation, and he said, “Hey, I know what you fellows are talking about.” And reached up in his smock pocket and pulled out a piece of paper and handed it to me.

I was sitting in the middle of the conversation, so he handed it to me. I unfolded it and discovered it that it was the full-page ad that we were discussing, so I spread it out pretty neatly on the top of the bar as we sat there eating a sandwich and drinking a beer. While we were sitting discussing the ad and its merits and what would happen to it, and who the fellow was that had run the ad, I then heard somebody over my right shoulder say, “Jesus Christ, I have just been down to the Dallas Morning News office and there is no such bastard involved. There is no address in Dallas, and ain’t no such person.”

Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?

Mr. JOHNSON. At that moment, I did not know. And looked around over my shoulder and saw a man standing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that man?

Mr. JOHNSON. That man was the man whom I recognized later by photographs and personal appearance as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not recognize him on that occasion as Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him then from the previous time you had seen him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your recognition of him was not based on subsequent pictures you saw of him?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I saw him then. I wasn’t real positive. I was not real positive that it was he. The reason for it being that when I had seen him before, he did not wear spectacles. When I saw him then, he did have on hornrim glasses.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody else in your group seem to know him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. JOHNSON. Ivan spoke to him, and Charlie Busby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they speak in such a way as to indicate that they knew him, or simply they were replying to his remarks?

Mr. JOHNSON. They were replying to his remarks.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather anything from them at that time or later that they knew him prior to that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Negative.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did he show you a Polaroid photograph on that occasion?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What were they of; do you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us, please.

Mr. JOHNSON. He indicated that he had just returned from the Dallas Morning News office and had discovered that there was no such person registered or had paid for the ad that we were discussing, and he had just returned from the Northwest Highway on Loop 12, is what I am trying to say, where he had taken some Polaroid pictures of a sign that was out there. As a matter of fact, he had taken two or three pictures. I can’t remember whether it was two or three.

Mr. HUBERT. He indicated that he just returned from doing that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. On that morning?

Mr. JOHNSON. That morning; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This was in the early afternoon; this meeting with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. This was at that time about 2 o’clock, I would suggest.

Mr. HUBERT. He said that he had taken those pictures earlier that morning?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is what he said; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Those pictures, I think, were pictures of a billboard calling for the impeachment of Earl Warren, the Chief Justice?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general mood or appearance? Was it that of excitement, or was he calm, or nervous, or overwrought, or what?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is like asking a hen in a henhouse would he want to lay or not. He was excited to the point of cursing a little.

Mr. HUBERT. What manifestation of excitement did he give?

Mr. JOHNSON. To the point of being a b-o-r-e, bore. And we turned our conversation between the group of us to disregard him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to make any connection between the shooting of the President to the Bernard Weissman ad and the impeach Earl Warren sign of which he had photographs?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What connection did he make?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he said, “We ought to shoot all them son-of-a-bitches.”

Mr. HUBERT. Shoot who? Whom was he referring to when he said that, as much as you could gather?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, with a photograph in his hand, the one that he had taken with a Polaroid, as he showed them to us.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was referring to the people who were responsible for those ads and for posting that sign and for killing the President?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say that again?

Mr. HUBERT. It was his remark that all of those people should be killed? Did that relate to the people that published the Bernard Weissman ad only, as much as you could tell?

Mr. JOHNSON. As much as I could tell; no, sir. “We ought to kill the s.o.b.’s, Warren, and the people that Warren stands for,” was his tenor.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you gathered from Ruby that he was in favor of the poster which called for the impeachment of Earl Warren?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; directly opposite. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in favor of?

Mr. JOHNSON. Of shooting Warren; or impeaching Warren, or something.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was trying to get out.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I misunderstood you.

Mr. HUBERT. What you could gather, Ruby was in favor of what the sign advocated?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that, and the ad in the paper and what had happened the day before.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he agree with the ad in the paper?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what had he told you about going to the press to talk to them?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?

Mr. HUBERT. What had he told you about going to the paper and talking to them about the ad?

Mr. JOHNSON. While he was standing there talking to us over my right shoulder, he told me that, or told us, all of us, that he had been down there and had talked to them, to the editorial staff and everything else.

Mr. HUBERT. What about?

Mr. JOHNSON. About getting rid of the gang in Washington.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you that he had gone down there to remonstrate with the editor for taking such an ad?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; he talked about it, and we didn’t listen.

Mr. HUBERT. Why would he be fussing, as it were, with the newspaper for taking the ad, if he agreed with it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t have any idea. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But your impression was that he had, that he said that he had gone down to find out why the newspaper had taken such an ad?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But also your impression was, he agreed with it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression also that he agreed with the people who wanted to impeach Earl Warren?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be incensed at the criticism of President Kennedy, or to the contrary?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be angry of this criticism of President Kennedy, or to the contrary?

Mr. JOHNSON. I very frankly didn’t hear him say too much about Kennedy one way or the other, other than he indicated that he felt that it was a malpractice of, what shall we say----

Mr. HUBERT. News ethics, or something of that sort?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; and the police protection here, that he should have been assassinated here.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he seemed to be ashamed of the fact that the President had been shot here?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Yet your impression was that he agreed with the criticism of the President?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to connect the, or mention anything about the possibility that the killing of the President might reflect on the Jewish community?

Mr. JOHNSON. To us or to me that afternoon; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to the general effect that he was aware about how the assassination of President Kennedy might affect business in Dallas, and more particularly his own business?

Mr. JOHNSON. That I can remember; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Tom Apple left at anytime so he might not have heard all this conversation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Negative. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed at one time by FBI Agent Paul L. Scott on December 6, 1963. Do you remember that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you a document which purports to be a report of that interview made by Scott, and I am marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Speedy Johnson.”

I am marking my name, writing my name below that. It consists of one page only. I would like you to read it, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON (reads Exhibit No. 1).

Mr. HUBERT. Now does that represent a fair report and correct report of the interview that you had with this FBI Agent Scott?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This indicates that FBI Agent Scott got the impression from you when he interviewed you that you did not know Ruby at the time.

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t know him. I still don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well it----

Mr. JOHNSON. As I told initially I had.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, this says that you said that you had not seen Jack Ruby prior to this time, prior to this occasion on November 23, and I take it that you want to correct that statement so that it would reflect that you had seen him on the one previous occasion we were speaking of?

Mr. JOHNSON. On the one previous occasion; yes, sir, but that was a long time before that.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, this document which is Exhibit No. 1, is not correct when it says that you said you had not seen Jack Ruby prior to this time.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, if we go back to infinity, really.

Mr. HUBERT. All I am asking is, this statement seems to contain something that is contradictory to something you said awhile ago, and I am just trying to see which is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had met him only one time before, a number of years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, this statement also says that the individual talking about Ruby made other remarks, the exact nature not recalled, indicating that he was highly incensed at the criticism of President Kennedy.

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, this statement is correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that is what I told him.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Johnson, is there anything else you wish to add?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; that is all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think that there has been anything that has passed between us here today that has not been reported by the stenographer?

Mr. JOHNSON. Very good.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Glad you came in.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF ROY E. STANDIFER

The testimony of Roy E. Standifer was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Roy E. Standifer. Mr. Standifer, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Standifer, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Standifer, I think you appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, in which he requested that certain members of the police department appear to have their deposition taken.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has a right to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, which in this case has not occurred.

But the rules also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice and testify without it.

Therefore I ask you if you are willing to waive notice and testify now?

Mr. STANDIFER. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STANDIFER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name.

Mr. STANDIFER. Roy E. Standifer.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. STANDIFER. 550 Wildrose Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. STANDIFER. Detective, police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. STANDIFER. Little better than 19 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. STANDIFER. Forty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation before that?

Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, they have been numerous. I was a construction foreman for a fence company for 5 years. Owned a cafe at one time. Aircraft worker shortly before the war or during the war.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that most of your adult life has been in the police department?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you a document consisting of two pages, although the second page is only about a quarter of it occupied with any typing, which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Paul L. Scott, taken on January 13, 1964.

For the purpose of identification, I have marked that document as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have put the following words, “Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Roy E. Standifer,” under which I have signed my name.

And on the second page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

I think you have had an opportunity a moment ago to read this exhibit, have you not?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Which exhibit contains, so far as you know, a correct statement and account of the interview to which it refers?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that the statements made therein by you as recalled by the FBI agent are correct?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you did know Jack Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. I did know Jack Ruby; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. For approximately 13 years?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Not too well, really. Only on a professional matter or business dealings. I never was in his place of business socially. I don’t drink, I don’t dance, and I don’t have any business around his place.

Mr. HUBERT. About how many times during the past 13 years do you suppose you met Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. I recall twice in his place of business. Once in the Silver Spur on South Ervay, and once at the Vegas Club on Oaklawn, and maybe 3 or 4 times at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. The two times that you saw him at the club would have been some years ago?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix any point of time for the three or four times that you saw him at the city hall?

Mr. STANDIFER. The only time that I remember was on the night that the President had been killed. I believe that was on a Friday, was it not?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the 22d. But you say you did see him at the city hall two or three times other than on that occasion?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, but I have no idea on what dates. He comes down quite often, I understand, visiting officers, and I have seen him just to speak to him or wave at him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you undertake an estimate of the time you saw him last prior to November 22?

Mr. STANDIFER. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be more than a year?

Mr. STANDIFER. More than a year. I would say 3 or 4 years.

Mr. HUBERT. You state in the document identified as Exhibit No. 1 that Ruby was well known among the police officers.

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you elaborate on that as to how you know that to be a fact?

Mr. STANDIFER. By hearing the officers in my division talk, that they had talked to him, and on one occasion prior to the assassination of President Kennedy he was interested in installing a safe, and he had talked to one or two of the officers in our bureau who are familiar with the installation or placement of safes.

He called our office. I am the desk officer. I answered the phone most often. He talked to me asking if I could send a detective to him to show him what would be the best location to install this safe.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that telephone conversation?

Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, that was probably a month before the assassination. I am not real clear on that. I believe he asked for Detective Joe Cody by name, as Joe is familiar with safes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. I told him I would try to locate Joe, or would give him a message that he wanted to talk to him about that safe.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?

Mr. STANDIFER. I wrote a note on an office memo and put in each detective’s box when something comes in like that, and I am sure I wrote a note.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Cody contacted him?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what opinion, generally, the members of the police department had of Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, I think maybe they was friendly toward him and they would visit him down to his place for a drink, I understand.

Maybe they would go down there and drink with him occasionally. I don’t know. I have never been there with any of them, and I don’t know that to be a fact. In all probability, that is what would take place.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand you did see him on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department on the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any question about your recognition of him?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say, and what did you say?

Mr. STANDIFER. I just spoke to him and said, “Hi, Jack,” and he said, “Hi, Sandy.”

A lot of times he called me Sandy. I guess it is short for Standifer, I don’t know.

There were three or four other detectives around the door. We had our door blocked off to keep the press from using our phones. We had another detective stationed at the door to keep them out, and he knew Ruby and they were talking, of course, and all the noise, and I don’t have any idea what they said. I didn’t solicit conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. But so far as your conversation with him was concerned, it was just an exchange of greetings?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does anybody else call you Sandy?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what officer it was he seemed to be engaged in conversation with?

Mr. STANDIFER. Lieutenant Leonard, and Detective Cal Jones.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you observe him speaking to those gentlemen?

Mr. STANDIFER. No more than 2 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the same occasion that you greeted him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, simultaneously.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of your seeing him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Roughly, 7:30 or 8 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix it? Because it would be helpful for us to have in the record what that estimate is based on.

Mr. STANDIFER. I know that it was after dark, and I believe along about then darkness set in about 6 or 6:30 that time of year, and I know it was possibly an hour after dark.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had you come on duty?

Mr. STANDIFER. 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you had supper that night?

Mr. STANDIFER. 6:30.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. STANDIFER. I always eat at 6:30. I bring my sack and I eat right in my own office. I never leave the office.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a rather fixed habit that you do eat at 6:30?

Mr. STANDIFER. Fixed habit. You could set your clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that you did eat this day at 6:30?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had eaten did you see Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. Probably thirty minutes after I came back to my desk I noticed that there was someone standing at the door there, several persons backed up against it, and in our office I was just milling back and forth from my desk to the door.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is that time that you saw Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This is on Friday, November 22?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All this was on the third floor, as a matter of fact, just outside your office, which is the burglary and theft division?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that office near Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. STANDIFER. Directly across the hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby near or by Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir. Where he went when he left, I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not see him again that day?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him prior to that time on that day?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on either the 23d or the 24th at any time, of November?

Mr. STANDIFER. I saw his derby hat on the 24th on television. I was watching television when it occurred.

Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from that, you were not on duty on the 24th?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d?

Mr. STANDIFER. That Saturday; no, sir. I am off Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed when you saw him?

Mr. STANDIFER. The only thing I could remember, and I am vague about that, I believe he had on a white shirt. He was sleeveless, I believe. I don’t believe he even had on a coat. I am not sure. That is how little attention I paid to him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt in your mind it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you address him first, or he address you first?

Mr. STANDIFER. I don’t remember, I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. But you in any case used the words, “Hi, Jack”?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him do anything else or say anything else? You have already covered the conversation with the two officers?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him passing out any cards to anyone?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you wonder why he was there?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; it never entered my mind. I figured he was curious like most other people.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of an identification system that was being used to preclude people from coming to the third floor other than authorized news media?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I had no enforcement on that end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn’t speaking so much of enforcement, but as to whether or not you knew that only police personnel and news media were supposed to be up there, if that is the case?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know about it?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I know that the hall was so congested with news media and cameras and recording equipment that I had to send three detectives to the basement to work out our official police business from the jail office rather than the routine coming and going of prisoners and people who wished to come into our office to make a complaint. It was impossible for them to get through.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any identification system being used by the elevators or other means of entry to the third floor of checking?

Mr. STANDIFER. All I know is I had occasion to make one or two trips down to the jail office or to the records bureau, and when I would come back off of the elevator, there would be a reserve officer, I believe, and a uniformed officer.

Of course when the door would open from the elevator, they would be standing there, and they would just give me a casual glance. I knew that they recognized me right off, but I was never challenged or anyone around me was never challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. But you knew that they were there for a purpose?

Mr. STANDIFER. Now whether they were keeping unauthorized personnel out, I don’t know. It was never mentioned to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now this checking situation at the elevator that you just mentioned was on Friday, November the 22d?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go off duty that day?

Mr. STANDIFER. They kept us over an hour. I went off at 12. We are originally due off at 11 p.m., but our captain asked everybody on duty that night to stay an extra hour to see if we could assist anyone. We stayed until 12.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to go to the assembly room when Oswald was brought in front of the press?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, do you have anything else you wish to say?

Mr. STANDIFER. One thing I might add that wasn’t in that interview by Mr. Scott. Maybe it was 5:30 or 6 o’clock, Charlie Brown, the FBI agent, brought Mama Oswald and a young fellow who was identified to me as Oswald’s brother, into our office and asked if they could be put into an interrogation room where it was private, and I told him “Yes,” and we showed him the room that he could put them in.

And he asked me if I would get them some coffee. The coffee canteen is just down the hall a little bit from Captain Fritz’ office. I went to the canteen and brought him and her both back a cup of coffee.

The young fellow said, “You are most kind.” And that is the only conversation we had.

Mr. HUBERT. They made no further comments to you at all except to thank you, as it were, for bringing the coffee?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now I don’t think there has been any conversation between us this morning or at anytime for that matter, which has not been made a part of this deposition by the reporter; is that correct?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. STANDIFER. That is all right. I am happy to help. If I can help you further, call me.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask just one more question. I think, Mr. Standifer, you said that you are most certain about the time that you saw Ruby, because you related it to the time of having your supper, which you said you had in your office and that it is your custom to do so?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you also used a phrase that that custom is so well established that people could set their clocks by it; is that correct?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. That has been your habit for quite a number of years?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. And has always been at 6:30?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw Ruby about a half hour after beginning to eat your supper?

Mr. STANDIFER. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.

AFFIDAVIT OF ROGER C. WARNER

The following affidavit was executed by Roger C. Warner on August 4, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Dallas, ss_:

My name is Roger C. Warner. I am employed as a Special Agent for the United States Secret Service at Dallas, Texas. I was employed in this position on Nov. 24, 1963. The following is a statement regarding my interview of Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin, aka Little Lynn, on November 24, 1963, and is true and correct to the best of my knowledge:

On November 24, 1963 at the request of Inspector Thomas Kelley, U.S. Secret Service, I met with Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin at 3809 Middlebrook Drive, Ft. Worth, Texas. The time was about 11:00 P.M. Also present at the interview was Bruce Ray Carlin, who was identified by Mrs. Carlin as her husband. Mrs. Carlin related to me facts regarding a $25 money order sent to her by Jack Ruby on 11-24-63. She also related to me the fact that she had learned that Mr. Dewar, once employed by Jack Ruby, had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Ruby’s night club, the Carousel. Mrs. Carlin stated that she had also vaguely remembered Oswald being at the club, but was by no means sure of that fact, nor of the fact that she had ever seen Oswald.

At the beginning of the above interview Mrs. Carlin was highly agitated and was reluctant to make any statement to me. She stated to me that she was under the impression that Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy and that she would be killed if she gave any information to the authorities. It was only through the aid of her husband that she would give any information at all. She twisted in her chair, stammered in her speech, and seemed on the point of hysteria.

Later, toward the end of the interview, which lasted about 45 minutes, Mrs. Carlin became much calmer. She stated that she had no memory of Oswald whatsoever until she had heard Mr. Dewar’s statement repeated on television. Also that she had no information in her possession which indicated that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy. She did ask that all information she had related be kept confidential to prevent retaliation against her in case there was a plot afoot. She stated that she did not wish to get involved in the matter at hand.

The information related by Mrs. Carlin was reported by me in a Memorandum Report dated December 12, 1963, from notes I had taken during the interview.

Signed this 4th day of August 1964.

(S) Roger C. Warner,
ROGER C. WARNER.

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE V. MEYERS

The testimony of Lawrence V. Meyers was taken at 1:45 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself to you. My name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our practice before asking the witness to be sworn and taking his testimony to give a brief explanation of what the basis for our questioning will be and what generally we intend to go into. As you probably know, the Commission on the assassination was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Now, under those two official acts the Commission has been directed to investigate into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then to evaluate those facts and report back to President Johnson on the facts that we find.

We have asked you to come here today in particular, Mr. Meyers, because you have known Jack Ruby for some time and you had occasion to talk to him both shortly before the assassination and shortly afterwards, and before he--that is, Ruby, shot Oswald. Under the rules of the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition. Also under these rules you are entitled to receive 3 days’ written notice before being required to testify. I believe that in this case we telephoned you late last week and although a letter was sent to your home which was probably received today----

Mr. MEYERS. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday. You have not--we have not actually complied with the 3-day notice requirement, and I will ask you at this point if you are willing to waive that requirement and go forward with the testimony?

Mr. MEYERS. Of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me before we proceed?

Mr. MEYERS. No. I am assuming everything you say--obviously everything you say is a fact and you will want me to give you whatever information I have to give you, and I will be very pleased to do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Let me ask you, then, to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MEYERS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name.

Mr. MEYERS. Lawrence V. Meyers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you presently live, Mr. Meyers?

Mr. MEYERS. 3950 North Lakeshore Drive, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at the time the President was assassinated?

Mr. MEYERS. Same address.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is your employer?

Mr. MEYERS. The name of my present employers is Farber Bros., Inc.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business is that?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, it is sort of a diversified business. They are basically manufacturers of automobile seat covers, hassocks, decorated pillows, and I am putting them in the sporting goods business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are their offices located?

Mr. MEYERS. Memphis, Tenn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the assassination of the President, by whom were you employed?

Mr. MEYERS. Ero Manufacturing Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were they located?

Mr. MEYERS. Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business were they in?

Mr. MEYERS. Same. They are, literally, directly competitors of each other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your general line of work is for Farber Bros.?

Mr. MEYERS. I am the sales manager.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And at the time of the assassination, what sort of work were you doing for Ero Manufacturing?

Mr. MEYERS. Same thing. Sales manager of Ero.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, when were you born?

Mr. MEYERS. When was I born?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. December 16, 1910.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where was that?

Mr. MEYERS. New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in the Chicago area?

Mr. MEYERS. Since 1952.