Chapter XVII: Front Matter (17)

And she said. “I don’t know, but be sure and tell Jack today.” With no particular emphasis on the word today.

I said, “I hadn’t planned on seeing Jack Ruby, but if I do, I would relay the message.” And then later the murder, and I could not quite correlate any reason why Chicago was indicating to people in my office, in my jurisdiction, anything that would pertain to AGVA, so I simply relayed this, and perhaps became over-concerned with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since learned of anything which would indicate what that telephone call was?

Mr. PALMER. The reason was given to me, but I don’t accept it, actually. The story was that the pressure he was putting on Jack to have him conform more closely to AGVA and rules and regulations that prompted him to talk to Alton Sharp in Chicago about writing a letter to New York concerning me. Jack had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Concerning you? Meaning Tom Palmer?

Mr. PALMER. Right. Jack Ruby had also asked me if he could. I said yes. But I couldn’t understand his sending any pertinent data to Chicago, which was not a regional office and had no jurisdiction over this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of friendship did Jack have with Conrad Brown or Alton Sharp?

Mr. PALMER. Alton was at one time branch manager here just preceding me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack particularly friendly with this man?

Mr. PALMER. Alton Sharp indicated to me that he would bear watching and require much work to keep him current. And other than that I felt that Alton Sharp’s friendship was no more than it is with any other nightclub operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say that you felt that the explanation that was given to you wasn’t satisfactory. I take it you must have something in mind as to what really was taking place.

Mr. PALMER. I didn’t know what importance this phone call was at that time, and of course, now, with time having dulled the image of it somewhat, I still cannot understand what was of importance, of such importance that would require a weekend transaction of AGVA business, which is not common on Sunday. However, we are on duty as representatives every day of the week, but this request not to send a letter seemed urgent for some reason when Wilma told me that Alton had relayed this to her in his conversation to her that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Alton Sharp was discharged from his job about that same time?

Mr. PALMER. Shortly thereafter, I believe. I am not sure chronologically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been before?

Mr. PALMER. I couldn’t say. I would have to check with some information that I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Jack Ruby may have been attempting to help Alton Sharp in Sharp’s relationship with AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. I would assume; yes. He did try to do that. His feeling was that if he helped anyone, and as a matter of fact, he helped me, or he thought he had, on several occasions, in any relationship with AGVA, I am sure he felt that this was beneficial to his own dealings with AGVA. And when I say he helped me, he spoke laudatory of me in the presence of officials from New York. Anyway, that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any other questions then.

Mr. PALMER. Fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for taking your time to come here today. You have been very helpful to us today.

Mr. PALMER. Bye.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH WELDON JOHNSON, JR.

The testimony of Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr. was taken at 5 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Before we ask anybody to testify, we give you a preliminary spiel on what this hearing is all about.

I will start out by telling you that the Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of Congress, and we have been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that we can find that bear upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today particularly because of your past employment with Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant.

Now I have been directed under the rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the Commission, to take your testimony, and under these rules and regulations, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice to come here to testify.

The first thing I will ask you is when did you receive a letter from us, if you did?

Mr. JOHNSON. When did I receive the letter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see. This date here, it is July 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you received it in plenty of time, and we can go ahead and take your testimony. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me about this before we start?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, not especially, because I talked with the FBI several times before, and I told them everything I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is good. We want to now get it in the testimony formally. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the reporter your full name, please?

Mr. JOHNSON. My name is Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell the middle name?

Mr. JOHNSON. W-e-l-d-o-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. JOHNSON. 12130 Willowdell Drive, Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. JOHNSON. July 16, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am a musician; bandleader.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a bandleader?

Mr. JOHNSON. Since, well, I have been a professional bandleader since 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to work for Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you work for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember the exact month. I believe it was March 1956--1957, that is when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work continuously for him from that time on?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in your band?

Mr. JOHNSON. Five, including myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of music did you provide?

Mr. JOHNSON. Variety of music. We have a very--well, I would say we played progressive jazz, rock and roll, and ballads.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you eventually left Ruby’s employment, didn’t you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Second of November of last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that date with a great deal of conviction. Is that a date you are sure of?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I just wanted to change, just wanted to change places. I had been there so long, and a fellow came and talked to me about playing in another club, and I just decided I felt the change would be good for my group and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your whole group with you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any of the members of the band who stayed on with Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the pianoplayer, Leonard Wood, stayed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that happen?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he felt that he could continue to stay there and keep the place going. I had a pretty good following there--but I understand it didn’t work out too well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s reaction to your leaving the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, actually, Jack hadn’t been at the Vegas Club. He was downtown here, you know, and, well, he was kind of hurt. He didn’t like it too well, but I had no contract at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that your band had been stolen from him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don’t think so, because this was my decision.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about his attitude toward your leaving?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that you recall?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he wanted to know if I was leaving him for good, and if there would be a possibility, if anything else would come up in the future, would I be interested in coming back with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I told him if it would be to the benefit of my group, I would be glad to, but I had a family to support and further, I have to look out for things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to get more money at this new club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; more consideration also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Castaway Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you playing there now?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am at Louann’s now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said more consideration.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had a chance to use some of my ideas. They more or less had things fixed where I couldn’t use my imagination, how I wanted to sell and so forth publicitywise, and I got better publicity and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it that you were restricted at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, more or less they won’t do anything to make the club look decent, where I would invite people out that I felt were special guests, and I just felt like this other club was better equipped, but I wouldn’t mind inviting anyone out there. And I had been at the Vegas Club, and he continued to say, “We are going to do this,” and they never would get around to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things?

Mr. JOHNSON. I mean like fixing up the club and making it look decent. In fact, it looked the same way it did when I first moved there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your dealings were with Jack Ruby, and how much of them were with his sister, Eva Grant?

Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see; I believe since 1959, all of my dealings were with his sister and not with him. Before then, it was all with him, because she wasn’t in town. She came in from, I don’t know, California, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know that his sister was operated on in November?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that operation take place while you were still working for her?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby get in any fights while you worked for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of those?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was just about some of the people that would come to the club that would get in trouble, and he just, you know, wouldn’t hardly stand for that in his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know George Senator?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not personally, but I mean I had worked on shows with them. They used to have shows at the Vegas Club, and she had worked some of the shows over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack put on a striptease show at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would he have those shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. They used to have them every Friday night, but some time last year, maybe around August or something like that, something happened that they discontinued them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he start having the striptease shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember, but several years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease shows at the Vegas Club before he opened the Carousel Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t think so. I don’t remember for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know another of his striptease dancers, Kathy Kay?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I have heard the name. It is familiar; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a policeman named Harry Olsen?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not by name. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ruby’s dancer, Little Lynn?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; that name doesn’t register.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all on November 22 or 23, the Friday that the President was shot, and the Saturday afterward?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or employees over that weekend?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I recall; nobody that would be close to him, I would say. Maybe some of his friends, but offhand, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not Ralph Paul or George Senator or Tammi True?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don’t remember seeing any of those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby attempt to promote any records for you?

Mr. JOHNSON. He had talked about it. He never did promote any records for me. He talked about it, what he could do, but he never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it never get beyond the talking stage?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, because he never did do anything about it. He just talked about it, and he said that was from some friends he knew over the country that he felt would do a favor for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a master of ceremonies at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. You mean when we had shows, or nightly?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nightly.

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he had shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have shows every Saturday night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; the shows were Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have them every Friday night?

Mr. JOHNSON. For a while; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a professional master of ceremonies, or did he do his own master of ceremonies?

Mr. JOHNSON. Occasionally he would, and sometimes he would have others.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever aware of any restrictions that Jack put on as to the kind of jokes that the master of ceremonies could tell?

Mr. JOHNSON. You mean did he limit them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you know of?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am sure--well, they never got, you know, where the average person wouldn’t accept them, but sometimes they got a little rough, because they were all adults and I guess they felt they could go OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you find Jack Ruby an easy man or difficult man to work for?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, for the average person, I don’t guess too many people could have worked for him, but I knew personally that Jack liked me and his sister liked me. But we would get into arguments, but it wouldn’t last long, and they were very good to me, as far as that is concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show you kindnesses?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he showed everyone kindness. As far as I am concerned, he was a very fine friend. He was a hot-tempered fellow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of kindnesses?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, if I ever needed any good word or something or someone he knew, he would never mind, he liked me, I know, personally. He liked me, but he was just, I say, high-tempered person. And you might run into him one time and he might be one way, and the next time he might be upset, but he would never leave until he would shake your hand if you had had an argument with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean on a nightly basis if you had had an argument that night, you would still walk out having shaken hands on that? Is that what you mean?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you mean that if you had an argument that resulted in termination of employment you would still shake hands with him and go away?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That also?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was the kind of fellow who quickly made up after he had an argument with you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he make up? Did he apologize for his own conduct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any specific episode that you had with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I had so many, I don’t remember. For instance, maybe sometimes his sister would get angry with me, and it might be a night that I should be paid and she wouldn’t pay me. Well, he wouldn’t take sides with her. He would get the money from somewhere and pay me, even if he had to bring it to my house, and he would apologize for her. Or even if anything should occur with him, he would apologize.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you would want to tell us that might shed some light on Jack Ruby on why he committed the crime that he committed.

Mr. JOHNSON. I haven’t the slightest idea, because the only time that I have known Jack--I have known him to shoot in the club when there was some trouble--shoot at the ceiling. We would have heated arguments, but never at any time where he put a pistol on me. I wasn’t afraid to argue with him, because I didn’t think he was that kind of a person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The time that he shot the pistol off in the club, what was he doing it for?

Mr. JOHNSON. They maybe were having a fight in the club, and to scare them he would shoot at the ceiling. I can’t think of anything other than what I have told you. Other than, as far as I am concerned, he was all right.

After leaving, he wasn’t angry with me, and he didn’t appear to be angry with me. We had a heart-to-heart talk, and I just explained to him I thought it would be better for me. I was getting in a rut at the club, and I just wanted to change. We had no angry words or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here and waiting as you had to a bit longer than we expected.

Mr. JOHNSON. Like I say, even if it meant to give up a job, I wanted to do whatever I could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This has been helpful to us because we are trying to get an insight from the experiences other people had with him, and you have helped us today to fill in some gaps that we didn’t have, and I appreciate that very much.

Mr. JOHNSON. I certainly hope I have been some help. Thank you very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bye, bye.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD J. PULLMAN

The testimony of Edward J. Pullman was taken at 7:05 p.m., on July 24, 1964; in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. We have a few preliminaries that we always go through to acquaint you with what we are trying to do here. I might state to you at the outset that the President’s Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order by President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress and under that set of official acts the Commission has been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today in particular because you have been friendly over the years with Jack Ruby and we are hopeful that you can perhaps provide us with some information and insight into Jack Ruby that we wouldn’t have had otherwise. Under the rules promulgated by the Commission, I have been directed specifically to take your deposition. I might tell you that the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to receive 3 days’ written notice before being obliged to testify, and I now ask you at the outset if you received a letter from the Commission and when it was that you did receive it?

Mr. PULLMAN. I received the letter last Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, the 3 days’ provision is complied with. There is another formal question that I will simply ask you and that is if you have any questions about the nature of what will take place in the next half hour or so?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I just wanted to get a little idea of what type of information you are looking for--just what you are concerned with?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In calling you, we are particularly interested in any information that you might have about the activities of Jack Ruby on November 22, 1963, and November 23 and 24, including various other people that we know who were in contact with him and also some background information of Jack Ruby in terms of the various enterprises of his in at least one or two of which I understand you were associated in with him.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And also, perhaps, some general insights to the kind of person Mr. Ruby was.

Mr. PULLMAN. How did you happen to get my name--I know I spoke to the FBI at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you were interviewed by the FBI, and other people that we have talked to have indicated that you, perhaps more so than any others, knew Jack pretty well?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I knew him pretty well; he used to be at my house occasionally and I had an insight to his personal character.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, let me ask you at this point if you will raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PULLMAN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. PULLMAN. Edward J. Pullman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Pullman?

Mr. PULLMAN. 5454 Anita.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. PULLMAN. July 12, 1928--no; that’s July 28, 1912.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. PULLMAN. I am a furniture designer and consultant--games, ideas, promotions--anything for the public; creative ideas for games and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that business?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, about 30 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any formal training in that?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just learned it all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you self-employed?

Mr. PULLMAN. I am working for a company right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And whom do you work for?

Mr. PULLMAN. I’m working for Freed Furniture Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you working for them at the time I have mentioned?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just started with them. I was just working for myself--I have just started with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a family?

Mr. PULLMAN. My wife and daughter and children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When, approximately, did you first meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I met Jack--oh, I’d say several years ago, but I never had any real contact with him, but I had heard a lot about Jack, but I never had any contact with him until 1963, and that was in the summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to make contact with you at that time?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, my wife was the one that I got in contact with him on, because she went to help in the night club. She used to be the manager of the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your wife was the manager of the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she meet Jack as a result of that?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, no; she had left the Theatre Lounge and she wanted to get something to do and she was told that Jack was looking for someone to help him and she was up there and he got her started working. She actually wasn’t working in a true sense of the word because he was never sure of what he wanted. What she could do for him--he couldn’t put anything right down on the line and say, “Yes; I want you to do this or that.” He was very erratic. Every night he ran the place on a different basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she start to work for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was--I’m not sure, but I believe it was in July.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In 1953?

Mr. PULLMAN. 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did she continue to work for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think--about 6 or 8 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did she happen to leave?

Mr. PULLMAN. She didn’t happen to leave--it was just too confusing--the confusion was constant and she couldn’t do things the way they should be run because she had a pretty good idea of how to run a club and she would try to help him and it seemed like he didn’t want to accept any help as far as his operations were concerned and he wanted to do it all himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, what actually, did she wind up doing for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just being a general hostess and seating people and trying to be of service to whoever came in--that was all; and I used to come up there evenings and spend a couple of hours and we got real close--real friendly. And I watched the way he operated and I knew his personality very quickly--he was very hot tempered and I was there one night when he personally threw someone out because he had said something derogatory about Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the time my wife worked there and I also found in talking to him that he couldn’t take anybody who was going to talk against Kennedy or the administration or the Government. Later I learned from other people that he felt the same way about Roosevelt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On this one instance, what specifically was said on the occasion when he threw somebody out?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was about--the MC was making some remark about Barry Goldwater and some other things like that, and someone made some derogatory remarks about Kennedy--I don’t remember the exact words--and he didn’t like what he said about Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the person use profanity?

Mr. PULLMAN. No profanity--just the fact that he didn’t have respect--he didn’t respect the President. That was one of the incidents. Then, there was an incident pretty close to the time--it was in November and we had a Texas Product Show and, of course, I hadn’t seen him in some time up until that particular time and he called me--he had come up with this twistboard and I was showing a bunch of inventions that I had at this Texas Product Show that I had on display there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the Texas Product Show set up?

Mr. PULLMAN. At the Exhibit Hall out on Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that out at the Trade Mart?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; but it’s pretty close--about a block up from the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What month was this?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was in November--the early part of November--I think it was the first week in November, and that’s when he contacted me. It seemed very coincidental--I hadn’t heard from him in months and he called me and he told me he had this twistboard and he needed some idea as to how to merchandise it or what to do with it, and he was always running into various things. He had this English razor blade that he was even trying to sell some of them in his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilkenson blades?

Mr. PULLMAN. Wilkenson blades; and when he called me about the twistboard, I had just been ready to go in to show him all my new ideas--products--at the show, and he thought it might be a good idea to tie the two together and that’s how I got closely associated with him for a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do with his twistboard at the Texas Product Show?

Mr. PULLMAN. I showed it in my space and he would even come down and demonstrate it himself and sell it. I asked him to send some of the girls down and demonstrate it--this twistboard that he had there--exotic dancers down there and he did bring some of them down. As a matter of fact, you will find photographic records of it from the Dallas Times Herald--they took a picture, and he may be in some of those pictures with one of the girls on the twistboard, and I also mentioned the fact that pictures were taken by the Dallas Times Herald newspaper, I believe, and they were actually publicity shots that were taken. Now, he used to come in with this friend, George Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the show run?

Mr. PULLMAN. It ran for a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what week did it run?

Mr. PULLMAN. I believe it was from November 1st through the 7th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did Jack come?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he tried to get down there almost every night if he could, but he did come down one night; he made a tour of the place and he ran across the H. L. Hunt display, and during that time they were giving out a shopping bag with food and a lot of this Lifeline literature that they inserted into the bags and I heard somebody calling my name--I was away up towards the middle of the display and I heard somebody call my name and it was Jack way down below calling me and he was walking at a very fast clip and he had a bunch of papers in his hand and he comes up to me breathless with Senator trailing behind him and showing me all this Lifeline material, and I couldn’t stop to read it because there were people all around the place, and he said, “I’m going to send this stuff to Kennedy--I want to send this stuff to Kennedy.” He said, “Nobody has any right to talk like this about our Government.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Senator was present at the time?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; George Senator was there. He got real excited and I said, “Well, you just know about it now, but Lifeline has been out for some time,” and that’s what he does and that’s how he gets his material around. He said, “I’m going to do something about this, I’m going to see that this is taken up in Washington,” and that was the incident that I recall. I think I even mentioned that to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what this literature was; do you recall any of the specific pieces of literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I know it was anti-administration, anti-Government type of literature that he has always been giving out. I don’t know if you have ever listened to his Lifeline program on the radio or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of literature was this--was there a radio script or pamphlets?

Mr. PULLMAN. Pamphlets--just pamphlets and sheets talking about the Government. I didn’t stop to read them, but I know about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually look at these sheets?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I looked at the sheets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any advertising on it?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; you see, actually, I don’t know whether this ought to be in the record--that was one of the reasons, I understand, that he wasn’t allowed to have his display at the New York Fair because he gives out this type of literature, and they broke his lease on that basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the pamphlets that were put out?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall them if some were suggested to you?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I couldn’t say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack talk about this literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, it was just a few minutes and then took off. He was all excited and red faced, livid, and that’s the way he got--hot and cold like that and I have seen that so many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he complain to anybody at the H. L. Hunt booth?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, there was no one there--there was nobody there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present besides you and George Senator?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever sell any twistboards for Jack?

Mr. PULLMAN. I sold some, I’m sure, and he sold most of them. Any time he came down there, he sold some.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you sell?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, I sold about a dozen--as a matter of fact, he didn’t know how to go about handling the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what way?

Mr. PULLMAN. I suggested to him to try to set up a mail order program on them, and that’s where he got that box number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s where he got what?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s where he got that box number that they are all talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested it?

Mr. PULLMAN. That he try to sell them mail order, you see, and he asked me about using the name of Earl, Earl Products before we went into the show, because I wanted to have some sort of sign at the display by who was showing the twistboards, so we discussed that at first and he said, “Earl Products,” and he didn’t have an address except his home address and I suggested he should use his name and then get a box number and do a mail order business that way and get started.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your promotion at the Texas Product Show a mail-order type of promotion?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, no; just an exhibit. It was just an exhibit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, in there in that exhibit was there a reference to mail orders?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, it was just an exhibit of ideas--an exhibit of all new kinds of new inventions, and this was a new idea that come up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the advertising you did for it at the Texas Product Show, was there a reference made to a post office box number?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, the post office box did not come up until after the Texas Product Show was over?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was--I don’t recall whether it was after or before. He was trying to figure out how to handle the sale of them--whether he would go direct to the stores and sell them because some of the stores already had some similar ones, and that’s why, I believe, he decided to go on a mail order.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he going to promote it through the mail--through somebody’s catalog or through direct mail solicitation?

Mr. PULLMAN. Through direct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to do it?

Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know. I didn’t know anything about that afterward. You see, I hadn’t seen him. After the show closed he came in and picked up his things and that was the last time I actually saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about plans for manufacturing the twistboard himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was just when he was trying to get some idea from me since I was a furniture man, or was, because the twistboard has some kind of a swivel device in there that we use in swivel chairs, and he wanted to get some ideas about it, whether it would be better off for him to manufacture them or let someone else make them and contract them, but he never went any further than that with me. He wanted my ideas about actually making it, fabricating the whole thing, and buying and getting the parts and assembling it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you suggest to him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I just would let them stay where they are--with the people that were making them, really running them, and see how they go over first, and then eventually go on his own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that suggestion before the Texas Products Show, during, or after?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the show. You see, I didn’t know about this--I hadn’t seen him up until the Texas Product Show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, this would have been about late October that you first learned about it, or were you actually set up at the show?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, at the show--this all happened within the week of the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the first day that you opened out there at the Texas Product Show, you didn’t have the twistboards?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he already had them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t have them out there?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you had them for the first full day?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he called me just before the show opened, about a day before the show opened, and that following night he brought them over. As a matter of fact, we tried to get them there at the time because they were going to have a big to-do with the opening--the publicity and all--for the exhibits, which come about anyway, but that was one of the things I recall. I know it was on the same day--he came across with them on the same day--he brought over about three dozen, and that’s all he had, and we sold about a dozen and I paid him whatever I got for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he charging for each one?

Mr. PULLMAN. $2.95.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of commission did he plan to provide for the distributor?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he didn’t know for sure what he was going to pay--he had no idea--40 percent off or 50 percent off or, if he didn’t have a distributor, he was going to be the distributor. He would have hired salesmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to inquire into producing the thing himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, but as far as that, that’s about all I know that was closest to the time of the actual happening. Prior to that I knew him just while my wife had worked there those few weeks and I realized that he was a very erratic person and not a very easy person to talk to, to know, also the fact that he became upset very easily and cooled off just as quickly, but I have seen him just haul off and lambast or hit someone without thinking twice, because--his club was run very well--considering.

I mean, he tried to keep it clean. He didn’t try to let any rowdiness come into it like some of the other places of that type, so that he was kind of proud of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of his employees?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just as manager--Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?

Mr. PULLMAN. I knew of the girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PULLMAN. Wait just a minute; was Tammi True the one he brought--the name rings a bell--I think he brought her out to the product show to demonstrate--she demonstrated the board. They got her picture.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I knew most of the girls that were there. We knew--what’s her name--that New Orleans girl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?

Mr. PULLMAN. Jada or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the night club?

Mr. PULLMAN. I was there at the time when she was brought in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on her?

Mr. PULLMAN. He never turned the lights out on her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least not in your presence?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; he wouldn’t never do that. He would give her an awful lot of hell, he would almost hit her--I’ll tell you that, but he wouldn’t turn the lights out.

Are you talking about on stage?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; if she got a little bit too risque, he would turn the lights out on her. He was very much concerned about the law.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he argue with her about it?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, she was just getting too raw--that was most of the argument, and as a matter of fact, he called the vice squad the first night she was there and he wanted them to see what she was doing--he wanted to know he was not doing wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present there then?

Mr. PULLMAN. I was present that night and I stood right with the head man on the vice squad and watched the show, because Jack kind of leaned on me because I acted as more of a host for him at the door, and I knew I saw all of these cops in there most of the time and they were all very nice--they were all served coffee--they were very nice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Harry Olsen, Officer Olsen?

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t know too many of them by name, but I knew they were law men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the fellow that Kathy Kay was dating, the officer she was dating?

Mr. PULLMAN. Was that Kathy Kay or Kathy King?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy Kay.

Mr. PULLMAN. A blonde?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really know.

Mr. PULLMAN. An English girl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, she’s English.

Mr. PULLMAN. And she was going with an officer?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him?

Mr. PULLMAN. She was engaged to him; yes, I had seen him up there. He used to come up there every night to take her home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationship did Jack have with this officer?

Mr. PULLMAN. Very nice--very well--he never had any trouble with him. He got along very well then with the officers. They would come up there and he had coffee. He was proud of the fact that he was able to have them in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. PULLMAN. Where I was?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN. I was in bed. I had just gotten up and turned the TV on and I saw Jack shooting Oswald as the picture came on, that’s all I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I asked you--when President Kennedy was shot, where were you?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, we were watching at home--my wife and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go out of your house at that time at all?

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t go out for 3 days--I didn’t budge out of the house for 3 days. I was very much shook up over it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby before the President was shot?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was at the Texas Product Show, was the last time I saw him, the first week in November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he had been over to your house?

Mr. PULLMAN. He was over a few times--it was on the twistboard that he came over the first--well, that was just the last--when I saw him, but he would come over just to talk to my wife and get some ideas and what to do about the club, but he would never do it, no matter what you told him. He wouldn’t do anything, but he was looking for friends--he was looking for friends. He would come in on a Sunday with sweetrolls and spend an hour or two, with his dogs, and I never saw anybody so crazy about animals. I mean, his own dogs, but as a whole, I think that my own honest opinion of the man--the man has been insane. He was psycho. I’m not talking about at the time--I’m talking before--I mean, he was not right, because when you talked to him, you think he is listening and you would look up and he would say, “I wasn’t listening, what were you saying?” He was off somewhere--he would hear what he wanted to hear, unless you asked him a question to get a direct answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let’s go back to the H. L. Hunt literature--was H. L. Hunt distributing food as well as literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. They were giving away samples and they gave away shopping bags and this stuff was already stuffed into the bags.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, when you would pick up the literature----

Mr. PULLMAN. It was in there already. That’s what Jack told me when he come by, he said, “Look what I found in this bag.” He was looking to see what was in there, and I immediately recognized that Life Line material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be familiar with Life Line?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just by accidentally listening on the radio at home. They had it on the radio around 6 or 7 o’clock on Saturday and we were listening to--what is the name of that program--you don’t know that local radio program that’s on every Saturday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it on the same station that Life Line is on?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a music program?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, it’s sort of a comment thing.

The REPORTER. Is it “comment”?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, comment, I believe that is the name of it. It is an interview program that comes on right in there somewhere and it’s news and goes on all the time, but this comes in there somewhere, and I never want to hear it, but when you do hear it, you sort of get interested in listening to find out what they are saying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had read this literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he must have read some of it to get so excited. He must have, and I said, “I’m sure that Kennedy knows all about this, and Washington knows all about this.”

He said, “Maybe they don’t.” He said, “I’m going to send it in.” And I said, “Well, you do what you want.” And that’s the last I heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think that it was unusual for Jack to be sensitive to that wording?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I was a little bit surprised that he would take the initiative that he did, never thinking that he thought like that. I didn’t think he had that much intellect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever campaign for anybody, has he ever been interested in any sort of politics?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any literature that was found in his possession endorsing the conservative Democratic slate; did he ever tell you he was campaigning for anybody?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, he never discussed politics. The only thing he talked with me about was when he was working for the union back in Chicago days and how he lost his finger in a fight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he tell you he lost his finger?

Mr. PULLMAN. That it was shot off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear it was bitten off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I did hear about that too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack tell you--that it was shot off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Shot off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear about it being bitten off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Then I heard later--later on somebody made the remark that it was actually bitten off in a fight and then I didn’t know what to believe, and knowing the type and coming from the East, I am originally from New York and I have known lots of fellows like that--there are a lot of people who were involved with unions and who were always in that element.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other things that Jack ever mentioned to you that he was sensitive about?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he didn’t like any vulgarity in his place. That was another surprise to me. Of course, he always bragged that he was a very rough fellow when he had the Silver Spur place on Ervay, I believe it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him then?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, but he would brag about the fact that he was so rough people would walk on the other side of the street because they were so afraid of him at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time your wife started to work for him until you last saw him at the Texas Product Show, about how much time would you say you spent with him?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, practically almost every evening around the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period of time?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was about 2 months--I just can’t remember exactly--how long it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would that be each evening, would you be there the entire evening?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I would spend the whole evening down there and he trusted everyone. I tried to show him a lot of mistakes that were going on there but he didn’t care. He just didn’t care. Everyone had their finger in his till. Everybody went to the cash register, which was a very unusual thing, knowing what was going on in the other clubs--everything was accounted for every night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean people were taking out money for their own use or something that they used it for down there, or did anybody and everybody have access to the cash register?

Mr. PULLMAN. They all had access, and he was always short every night--he was short, and that was another reason why my wife didn’t want to stay, and I didn’t think she should stay, because of all that going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have his waitresses on a salary?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he pay them?

Mr. PULLMAN. They worked on tips--they worked on tips--that’s how it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much money could those girls make in a night?

Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know--that varied--I never could tell what that was--that varied.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about his plans to open a new nightclub.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he has had plans for other places--sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did he tell you about that?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he had one particular location that he kept talking about, and he wanted to open a real high class place and as a matter of fact he offered me the proposition to take it over, manage it and host it, and my wife didn’t want any part of it, knowing the type of person he was, and I didn’t want to be involved with anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any other business with him besides the twistboard?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was the only thing--that’s all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were never involved in the sale of any vitamin pills or any other products with him?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; the only reason I thought that the twistboard had merit was because it was a new idea and it fitted in with the new products show, and I discussed it with the promoters of the show before I even took it in and they thought it wouldn’t hurt to put it in there at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you encourage Jack in the idea that that might be a profitable venture?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I did, because I thought possibilities, but he had to know how to go about doing it. He had no market set up for it, but I felt we may find out what appeal it really had, and which would be the best way to sell it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his response to the appeal that was demonstrated at the Texas Products Show?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he learned one thing--that you have to demonstrate it to sell it. If it was just lying on a counter, you couldn’t sell them. You could probably sell it mail order, where they don’t see it--you just describe it like any other mail-order product, but to really sell it, you have to see it. Every time it was demonstrated, it was sold, and when he would come down, he put on a real pitch with it too and he could sell it. I didn’t bother selling them--I was just showing them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get on it and demonstrate it himself?