Chapter XIV: Front Matter (14)

Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice that on page 3, also, you have a mark next to the third paragraph, and I think that your comment was with reference to the first sentence of that third paragraph beginning with the words “Hall said,” and ending with the words “parked there.” What comment have you to say there about that, sir?

Mr. HALL. The statement says that Hall recalls that Fleming and the patrolman with the shotgun were the only persons to enter or leave the garage through the Commerce Street entrance. I am a little vague, but I think Chief Batchelor also passed by my line of vision at that time. I do remember seeing Chief Batchelor and nodding to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that, is the statement correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, to put it affirmatively then, other than the possibility that Chief Batchelor passed by, you do not think that anyone else did?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no further marks, and I take it, therefore, that the rest of the statement which has been identified, or the report which has been identified as statement 1, is correct as modified?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall when you first got any notice whatsoever about this function that you ultimately performed on November 24?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 9:45 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You fix that in what way; sir?

Mr. HALL. I fixed that because our Sunday school class was just commencing. I was going into the classroom that I normally would teach, when I received a call from the church office that I was wanted on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was your school scheduled to begin?

Mr. HALL. 9:50.

Mr. HUBERT. 9:50?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you were going in at approximately 5 minutes before that?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you actually reached the class yet?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I was in the classroom itself.

Mr. HUBERT. But the class had not yet begun?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you normally start on time?

Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This call came about how long before you would normally have started?

Mr. HALL. Five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the call from, did you say?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?

Mr. HALL. Harold.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the call?

Mr. HALL. We were asked to provide a truck for Chief Batchelor as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Fleming told you that on the phone, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what the purpose for the use of the car would be?

Mr. HALL. Of this I am not real certain, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Fleming?

Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?

Mr. HALL. I sat for a moment trying to reconstruct the previous evenings arrangement to remember who would have keys to the terminal, since there are only two sets in existence. The most logical choice seemed to be Ed Dietrich and Don Goin. I called Ed Dietrich’s home. He had just gone down to the corner. So I called Don Goin’s home and told him to meet me down at the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what you wanted to meet him about?

Mr. HALL. I am not positive; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a set of keys?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; he would have come anyway. It is fairly usual to call one of our people and say, “I will meet you at the terminal in a few minutes, we have a problem.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to Goin?

Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute. Then I called Ed Dietrich’s home back and asked him to join us.

Mr. HUBERT. You got him on the second time?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then immediately leave the church?

Mr. HALL. I think I called Harold Fleming back, and I assured him that we could produce and agreed to meet down at the terminal. When his call first came in, there was a little bit of doubt in my mind that I could reach anybody on a moment’s notice, afraid that every man we have would be out of pocket as of Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. So that after speaking to Dietrich, you then made a third phone call?

Mr. HALL. I talked to Fleming twice; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you leave the church then?

Mr. HALL. There is a period of time of 30 minutes that I am not real positive. The time that the first call came in at 9:45--I feel reasonably sure that I was down at the terminal by 10:30. Exactly the time I left the church would be close to 10:05, because my wife had just started her Sunday school class.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did that begin?

Mr. HALL. 9:50; and I peeked into her room to quietly tell her to get home as best she could, that I had to go to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the church located?

Mr. HALL. At the corner of Colorado and Turner in Oak Cliff.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the terminal?

Mr. HALL. 1800 Leonard.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you drive?

Mr. HALL. About a 10-minute drive?

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go down?

Mr. HALL. In the car assigned to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean what route did you take?

Mr. HALL. Turner north to Greenbrier; Greenbrier east on Sylvan; Sylvan north to the Fort Worth cutoff; Fort Worth cutoff east on into town, proceeding up Commerce Street to Field; turning north on Field to Ross; and east to Ross to Leonard; north on Leonard to Flora. This is the corner the terminal is located. The reason that I feel fairly sure of that route is we are all creatures of habit, and that would be the way to go, especially in a hurry.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving faster than normal?

Mr. HALL. Not really.

Mr. HUBERT. So you think the trip took you about 10 minutes, you said?

Mr. HALL. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That would make the time of arrival at the terminal then about 10:15 or 10:20?

Mr. HALL. This could be so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was anyone else there?

Mr. HALL. I believe I was the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Who got there next?

Mr. HALL. I think the order of arrival was me, Dietrich, Goin, Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about the time intervals between their arrival after yours?

Mr. HALL. Not really; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have stated that all four of you were there at the terminal, however, at 10:30?

Mr. HALL. Approximately so; yes, sir. I remember feeling quite proud of the quick assembly time on a normally off-duty time.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred after the four of you were there? Do you remember whether there were any telephone calls to Chief Batchelor?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I believe there were. I think Fleming called Chief Batchelor at least once.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the nature of that call?

Mr. HALL. I am not sure whether Fleming got a hold of Chief Batchelor or not. I think it was to determine if one of the smaller trucks would be acceptable.

Mr. HUBERT. What was decided upon. What actually happened?

Mr. HALL. The impression we received was that the larger truck would have to be the one used.

Mr. HUBERT. Did more than one truck go?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I decided to have the smaller truck accompany the larger truck as a standby. This procedure we use in all cases of tension for double protection. We frequently send two vehicles when one would be sufficient to handle the load.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you left the terminal with the two trucks?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 10:50--10:45 or 10:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you estimate that between 15 and 20 minutes between the time all four of you were there until the two-vehicle convoy proceeded to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now who was driving the larger truck?

Mr. HALL. I was, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone with you?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the other truck, the small one?

Mr. HALL. Don Goin, I believe; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Dietrich with him?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you said, it was either Dietrich or Goin driving the other car?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I feel pretty sure it was Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you proceed from the terminal to the Dallas Police Department building?

Mr. HALL. We, in convoy fashion, the large truck leading the small truck, went south on Leonard to Ross, west on Ross to Pearl, south on Pearl to Main, west on Main to Harwood, south on Harwood to Commerce, east on Commerce just past the city hall basement entrance, and I then backed the large truck into the entranceway and indicated to the small truck to park just ahead of the passageway in reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions to back in prior to leaving the terminal?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; we had. We had had that understanding.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the Dallas Police, Commerce Street entrance, you did not wait for any further instructions, but immediately proceeded to back in?

Mr. HALL. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Fleming or anyone else assist you in backing in by way of directions and signal, and so forth?

Mr. HALL. Yes; Mr. Fleming helped with the traffic control, and then remained at the rear of the truck for further instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was that the first time that day you had been to the police department?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone of you, including yourself, have on a grayish or any other type of overcoat when you were at the police department?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I can tell by looking at you that you do not resemble Jack Ruby.

Mr. HALL. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. But I wanted you to express an opinion as to the other gentleman.

Mr. HALL. Definitely not. Goin and Dietrich were in uniform. Our standard uniform is khaki color, with .38 pistols at their side. Mr. Fleming was in a suit, and he is tall and rather thin. I would guess at least 6 inches taller than Mr. Ruby. There seems to be no resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any TV mobile van units nearby there?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you or Mr. Fleming or Mr. Goin or Mr. Dietrich ever approach any of those units, do you know?

Mr. HALL. For no reason; no, sir. There was one parked in the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just describe it.

Mr. HALL. One parked at the entrance to my right. As I pulled past the entrance and backed in, there was a TV camera stationed on top of a truck approximately here.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between you and Harwood Street?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Almost up to the Commerce entrance?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; there were a number of people, onlookers. All of them had been regimented over on the other side of the street, not any closer to the city hall than the sidewalk, to the far side of Commerce. There were approximately 50 or so people over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody on the Main Street side of Commerce? That is to say, in the area of the sidewalk between the mobile units and the building itself?

Mr. HALL. No; as we passed the Main Street side of the city hall, we were quite intent in watching the traffic and people and in getting our truck into proper position on the other side of the building, so we didn’t observe anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anyone at all go up to the window of any of the TV mobile units?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When your truck was placed on the ramp and arrived at a stationary position, would you describe what that position was relative to what part of the truck was inside the building and what part was outside the building?

Mr. HALL. My cab was even with the outside wall of the building, which would indicate that over half of the truck was indented into the building on a downward slant. The rear door of the truck would be 6 or 8 feet inside of the line formed by the outside wall of the building. Is that the answer?

Mr. HUBERT. Now you said that your cab, and therefore, you sitting in the driver’s seat of the cab, was on a line even with the outside wall of the building?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you personally from the wall on your left? In other words, how much space was there between you and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Total of about 4 feet, I would imagine; sir. There is a little parapet there. You allow for the runningboard of my truck and the open door. Between my open door and the wall would be approximately 2 feet left over.

I haven’t mentioned this; I think it is probably immaterial; a newsman walked up to my cab during this interval of waiting for something to happen and attempted to interview me, asking questions about the operation of the company, and due to the stress of the situation, I shut the door to avoid discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, does that have a window?

Mr. HALL. It is a bulletproof glass and it is sealed.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is----

Mr. HALL. This is a minor thing, but they were quite annoying.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? Did he just go on after that?

Mr. HALL. He went on about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not go into the building?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was a newspaperman?

Mr. HALL. He had a pad and a pencil and said he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. This wasn’t Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not?

Mr. HALL. No; definitely not. This was a young kid.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else pass by going into the building to your left?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are quite certain that no one did?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that no one could have without your seeing them?

Mr. HALL. It is so very unlikely.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from the interval of hesitation that although your answer has been it is very unlikely, you are not willing to make the positive statement that nobody did?

Mr. HALL. No; due to one thing. There was approximately 20 minutes of tension. There was quite a bit of activity in the area. I feel very sure that only the people designated passed my long vantage point.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say people designated, who do you mean?

Mr. HALL. Harold Fleming and the police officer and probably Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you hear the shot fired?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you backed your truck in until the time the shot was fired, did you move out of the van at all?

Mr. HALL. No; the reason is that it was parked on a slant and I wanted to make darn sure we didn’t roll or have any problem.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your engine running?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason why you didn’t go down all the way?

Mr. HALL. The height of the truck. The height of the passageway wouldn’t permit our truck down in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any question raised as to whether the truck had sufficient power to climb up that ramp if it went all the way down?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no; it is a heavy Chevrolet truck. Strictly a matter of height.

Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the right-hand side of your truck and the wall on the Harwood Street side of the Commerce entrance?

Mr. HALL. Just enough for one man to pass.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be how much, a foot, or 2 feet?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 2 feet, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were there any police guards that you saw on either side of your truck during the time it was parked?

Mr. HALL. Sitting in the driver’s seat looking out the left door to the rear, I could observe a police guard beyond the rear of the truck on the left side. I assumed there were police guards on the right side also, even though from my vantage point I couldn’t see him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did see a police guard to your left?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In the space between the truck and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Behind the--further back down, sir, not standing directly between the truck and the building; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor was there any, I take it then, at the very entrance between your truck and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Not stationed permanently at that spot to stand still; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, were there some moving?

Mr. HALL. I have to explain this hesitation. I am trying to recall. At the time, there was quite a bit of activity there. There were policemen moving, patrol type situation. Two on the corner, two out in the street directing traffic, one up at the door to the new part of the city hall, and one out on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in front of your truck more or less?

Mr. HALL. Front and to the left; yes, sir. I am not just real positive, but one policeman may have gone through that passageway.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in civilian clothes?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no; gosh, no. There is another reason for this. The concentration of newsmen was apparently already at their posts down in the basement when we got there.

Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell that?

Mr. HALL. When you back into an opening and look through your rear-view mirror, or also turn around and look down the left side of your truck, you see a concentration of people down in a rather dark basement area. There was excitement down there. We were on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell there was excitement? By movement, or sound?

Mr. HALL. By movement and noise. Am I being direct enough?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fleming during any of this period?

Mr. HALL. Very minimal. “What is going on? Are they ready?”

Mr. HUBERT. Had any signal arrangement been made between you as to when to start off, and so forth?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. You were simply waiting instructions then as to what to do?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told as to what route to follow?

Mr. HALL. The policeman got into the cab and briefly said his understanding was that we would turn left and have an escort and would probably go on up to Central Express, over to Main, and down to the county courthouse by the most direct route. I feel that this was a little conjecture on his part and mine both.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had stopped in the final position of the truck did this policeman come and sit next to you?

Mr. HALL. Three to five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. HALL. Strict estimate; it wasn’t immediately. It wasn’t toward the latter part of the waiting period. It was in the early part of the waiting period, and I feel that 3 to 5 minutes was a fairly accurate estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you converse with this gentleman?

Mr. HALL. Briefly; we shook hands, smiled at each other, and sat there.

Mr. HUBERT. He stayed there until after the shot was fired?

Mr. HALL. He stayed in the truck until we pulled over across the street and until after the ambulance had gone by.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was in uniform?

Mr. HALL. Yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any kind of records kept by your company concerning the movement of the trucks?

Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir. This Sunday morning adventure was such an unusual thing and participated in by two administrators of the company, that we made no formal truck report as you normally would when you come in off a run. We made an informal memo report, I did, and mailed it to our home office in Fort Worth, Monday morning, describing the situation, just for the file.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that report contain any reference to the various times that we have discussed? For example, today, and particularly the time of leaving the terminal and returning to the terminal?

Mr. HALL. No; it was just a rough informal memo to Mr. Mastin, the president of the organization, putting on paper what we had done.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any charge made to the city for this service?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; we were available to the city for emergency use. Couldn’t very well charge when we don’t accomplish our mission.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think that is all I have; sir. I now would like to ask you this question so the record may be clear. There has been some informal discussion between you and me since you came in, but I believe, and I ask you whether you concur in this, that all that we discussed informally has been again discussed formally in the sense that it has been recorded?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all, and thank you very much indeed.

TESTIMONY OF CECIL E. TALBERT

The testimony of Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas, were present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Captain Cecil E. Talbert. Captain Talbert, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I understand, Captain, that you appear today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has the right to have a 3-day written notice personally directed to him prior to the taking of his deposition, but the rules also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day written notice if they wish.

Captain TALBERT. I wish to waive.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you now if you are willing.

Captain TALBERT. Please.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain TALBERT. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, you have previously given a deposition in this matter, which I think was on March 24, 1964, isn’t that correct?

Captain TALBERT. I gave a previous deposition; yes, sir. The date is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. For that reason, I will not make any attempt to take any information concerning who you are and so forth. I take it you are still with the police department in the capacity you were when your deposition was last taken?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to inquire about a number of matters that were touched upon, I think, last time concerning which we need some elaboration, and that is the reason for calling you back. As I recall the matter, you came on duty on November 24 early in the morning to relieve Captain Frazier, is that not so?

Captain TALBERT. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. What time, do you remember, did you come on duty?

Captain TALBERT. I would have to give you an approximation, sir, between 6 and 6:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. What shift was it that you were coming on?

Captain TALBERT. It is referred to as the second platoon, working days, as it operates from 7 to 3.

Mr. HUBERT. But you came on sometime before the actual beginning?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Frazier was there when you came?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand also that you proceeded to set up certain security measures in the entire building?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not? What security measures did you begin to set up in the morning when you got there?

Captain TALBERT. Later in the morning at approximately 9 o’clock I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to get squads in to set up security measures in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. The basement being referred to as the automotive drive area and the area where the prisoner, if he were transferred, would be exposed? That is to say, the basement would be the two ramps and the parking area, is that correct?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and the approach to the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. It is actually below the first floor?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not taken any kind of security precautions prior to that?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now what security precautions did you initiate at about 9 o’clock, you say, on November 24?

Captain TALBERT. I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to----

Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; Rio Sam Pierce. I instructed him to go over the detail and pull three squads from each of the three outlying stations and four from central stations to acquire as many men as possible by utilizing two-man squads, and search the basement area, clear it, and then keep it cleared of everything but authorized personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you do that----

Captain TALBERT. By basement area, let me refer back again to the area that we previously defined.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that on your own initiative, or were you directed or requested to do that by anyone?

Captain TALBERT. I did it on my own due to the buildup of public curiosity seekers around the building, as well as the buildup around the city jail, and traffic conditions in the downtown area on Sunday were extraordinarily heavy due to the situation that had just occurred. And I thought that if a transfer were made, then we should have some precautions to safeguard it, and also to keep from having chaos in attempting to do it immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware then that the transfer of Oswald would be made by utilizing some part of the basement area, or were you just assuming that it would?

Captain TALBERT. Strictly an assumption, sir, and from the fact that he might not. Transfer was strictly an assumption from the press, what had been released in the press the day before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not know at that time that Oswald would be transferred on Sunday?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been in contact with any superior prior to the institution of these security precautions you have just described?

Captain TALBERT. I had talked to Chief Curry on the telephone in the early morning hours just prior to 7, somewhere along there.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered that in your previous deposition.

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time direct you to institute any security precautions?

Captain TALBERT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you institute any security precautions other than the ones that you just described concerning the basement?

Captain TALBERT. That I described in the previous deposition, or presently?

Mr. HUBERT. No; in the present one.

Captain TALBERT. You mean further along in the morning, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, no. I was thinking about security precautions in other areas than the basement at that time.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I didn’t have the personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any steps to initiate security precautions as to other areas than the basement at any time on Sunday?

Captain TALBERT. When the crowd began to get heavy, began to gather on Commerce Street, then on the Commerce Street side we had had the previous warning from the FBI and an anonymous caller of a possible mob action, so we moved the civilians from the north side of Commerce to the south side of Commerce and stationed, or had Sergeant Steele station some reserve officers out there to maintain the free sidewalk as well as the surveillance of the ground.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that done at your direction and order?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive instructions from some person higher in command than you to do it, or did you do it on your own initiative?

Captain TALBERT. I just saw the necessity of doing it, so I did it on my own initiative.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive from anyone any specific instructions concerning security precautions other than what you have mentioned?

Captain TALBERT. In reference to the original deposition, I pointed out in there about the receiving of instructions and transferring the prisoner from the city jail to the county jail. I received instructions on this.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom?

Captain TALBERT. From Chief Lumpkin and Chief Stevenson at the time they told me about the prisoner being transferred, that he would be transferred in an armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that, do you know? I mean the time that you received that information and these instructions?

Captain TALBERT. I was trying to refer to something for a time. 10:30 to 10:45, somewhere in that vicinity. It would have been in the vicinity of 10:30 or 10:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive any other instructions concerning security from anyone?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Well, may I qualify that. You mean prior to Oswald’s shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were any conversations concerning the transfer of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. I am sure there were many, but not in my presence.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to Lieutenant Pierce regarding the security measures he should take with reference to the basement area?

Captain TALBERT. Clear it and seal it off, or seal it off rather and then clear it, and search it.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what “seal it off” means?

Captain TALBERT. Station officers at the entrances or exits and insure unauthorized personnel not entering the area.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down to the basement yourself?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you examine to see all possible entrances and direct that the sealing off process cover those possible entrances?

Captain TALBERT. May I qualify again, or ask a question? Do you mean did I direct the actual sealing off?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I did not. I examined it after it had been sealed off to see if it had been properly done, and in my opinion it had been.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the clearing process consisted of what? The clearing out or checking whether the building had been sealed, the basement had been sealed?

Captain TALBERT. Clearing all of the civilian employees out. They had a check. This was done before I went to the basement. But I was instructed, or not instructed, I mean informed after I went down to examine it, of the step by step process that had been taken in checking the news personnel back in, or checking them in the jail office that were in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, it was not all cleared out of everybody and then accredited personnel let in, but rather those that were in there were checked out to see if they were accredited?

Captain TALBERT. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the accreditation consisted of their being authentic news media people?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you given any instructions to the effect that news media were to be permitted to remain in the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it then your own initiative that news media were not to be removed from the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?

Captain TALBERT. I qualify that in that Sergeant Putnam--as I recall, Sergeant Putnam--it possibly could have been Sergeant Dean was present at the time when Chief Curry told the newsmen there was no point in their setting up their TV cameras and equipment on the third floor, that the man would come through the jail office of the basement. I didn’t personally hear it. It was told by him or one of the other of my superiors that Chief Curry had given them that information, or permission, if you wish.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not clear the basement of news media because you understood from Sergeant Putnam or someone else that he had heard Chief Curry say to the news media that there was no use in their setting up their equipment on the third floor since the transfer would be made through the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes. They were in the process of setting up their live television cameras and what-have-you, when he gave them this information.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check with anyone to see if the news media would be permitted to remain in the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I say----

Mr. HUBERT. Sure; go ahead.

Captain TALBERT. Could we hold this up just a moment?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but let me say this, whatever we say off the record----

Captain TALBERT. I can go back on the record. I just want to know if you want something.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s go off the record, with the understanding that we must put the contents of what you tell me off the record into it, you see.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go on the record. Why don’t you just state that? Let’s put it this way. There was a short conversation, the substance of which will now be covered by Captain Talbert.

Captain TALBERT. On my previous deposition it was apparently stated as a fact that we utilized the existing general order in following our usual procedure in handling news personnel, and that is general order No. 81. I have since checked it to make sure that is the correct general order number, and that general order was supplemented in 1963 after two incidents in which news personnel felt they had been held away from their story because of unnecessary precautions by police officers, and it was quite adequate as far as assisting them in obtaining their story.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were operating under the provisions of that order No. 81, as amended?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. I have the amendment. I mean I have No. 81, and I have the additional amendment with me, but I would rather you get it from the department rather than me.

Mr. HUBERT. If you have a copy that could be available, I would just as soon get it.

Captain TALBERT. I was curious enough to make a copy after I was here before. No. 81 is the top figure, and the bottom is the amendment. Not the amendment; actually it is an emphasis of No. 81 where it was emphasized it was to be followed, with punitive measures to be taken if it were not.

Mr. HUBERT. In connection with your present deposition, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark as an exhibit the documents you have just referred to, as follows: “Dallas Police Department General Order No. 81 entitled ‘Press Releases’, dated June 15, 1958.” I am marking that for the purpose of identification as “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert,” signing my name below that, consisting of really about a third of the page. And the second document you have handed me is a photostatic copy of a long memo dated February 7, 1963, addressed to all members of the department, apparently signed by Chief of Police J. E. Curry, that I am marking as follows, for identification: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert”, and I am signing my name below that exhibit. Now Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2 are the police directives or orders that you were referring to a moment ago?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversations you had with Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry or Deputy Chief Stevenson?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; to some extent.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what they were?

Captain TALBERT. Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin wanted to go to the third floor for a cup of coffee, ostensibly. I assume that the true purpose was to tell me about the armored car transfer. And instead, I took them to the second floor to my sergeant’s room, or conference room where we had a pot of coffee made, and while we were drinking coffee there they told me that the transfer would be made, that it would be made in an armored car, and wanted me to have a man or two men available on the Commerce Street side to assist the driver of the armored car in backing in. At that time they were concerned about the height of the armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about what time that was, sir?

Captain TALBERT. Again, I am going to give you an approximation of 10:30 to 10:45.

Mr. HUBERT. That conversation on the second floor was with Chief Batchelor?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. HUBERT. And Lumpkin?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry at that time?

Captain TALBERT. Not with Chief Curry. When Chief Batchelor came to the basement, we had quite a few commentaries on various parts of security, but verbatim, I can’t recall what they were.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the general nature?

Captain TALBERT. He was checking what we had done there. Chief Batchelor came into the basement parking area, the one we had sealed off, and had checked it, or was checking it, in the process of checking it, and in checking it we had some brief conversation. We moved two cars out on the Commerce Street side prior to the arrival of the armored car, and he moved his car, and I believe Chief Curry’s car; had them moved out, I should say. I didn’t move them myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?

Captain TALBERT. They were parked in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Captain TALBERT. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t they by the railing?

Captain TALBERT. Oh, I am sorry, they were always parked in the same place, so I am sure they were there. As you turn into the drive, or rather from the drive into the parking area, the chief’s car is always parked to the right or on the south side of the drive.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the cars were removed from the space that the cameras were ultimately placed?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; they would have been on the opposite side.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the removal of the cars that were in the spaces ultimately and later occupied by the TV cameras?

Captain TALBERT. The TV cameras were the ones that were set up as permanent installations. They were already set up, and there were no cars there when I arrived in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at what time?

Captain TALBERT. Again an approximation of 10 o’clock; in the vicinity of 10.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not give orders for the clearing of that space of automobiles so that the cameras could occupy that space?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did give such orders?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don’t know that they were given.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any orders to the effect that the news media were to be kept behind the railing? That is to say, on the east side of the railing that divided the ramp from the garage area?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Although I was in and out of the basement, it might have occurred, but it didn’t occur while I was in the basement. Now Chief Batchelor did rearrange the news media, I think, on two different times. He was trying to arrange them in a better situation for us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe that?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I wasn’t in the basement when either move was made. May I inject here that I was operating a patrol platoon, and this was extracurricular.

Mr. HUBERT. What you say is that you believe, or have learned that Chief Batchelor made two efforts, to your knowledge, to change the press position?

Captain TALBERT. I have been told that; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a conversation by telephone that you had with Lieutenant Pierce at Parkland Hospital after the shooting of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Not with Lieutenant Pierce; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any with anyone else?

Captain TALBERT. I had several conversations from Parkland Hospital on the telephone after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about them, please?

Captain TALBERT. Well, I was at Parkland to clear the hospital and make sure that the chaos or confusion didn’t transmit into the hospital itself, and also secure the area where the prisoner was being operated on. And the Governor was there. There was a peculiar situation in that he was on the same floor in close proximity to the operating room where Oswald was being operated on. I was trying to get all the confusion away from the room he was in. He was in the intensive care room. As soon as personnel was placed, I started making telephone calls trying to check to find out how the fellow got in the basement, the fellow being referred to, of course, as Ruby. And I don’t recall a specific conversation with Lieutenant Pierce, although I am sure I did talk to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anyone else you spoke to?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would that be?

Captain TALBERT. I spoke to R. E. Vaughn. I spoke to Nelson. I spoke to, I believe, now let me see, I think I got a hold of Jez who was on the Commerce Street entrance. I was contacting the men on the various entrances to see how it could have happened, how he could have got in there. Is there such a thing as my correcting an error I made in my first deposition here?

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly; absolutely.

Captain TALBERT. I said in my first deposition, and I recall that after leaving, after my conversation with Chief Curry on the telephone that morning, I didn’t talk to him again that day. And for some reason or other, I overlooked the fact that I did talk to him from the hospital. I talked to him twice, possibly three times. I called him, or rather was called by him at the hospital to find out what the condition of Oswald, the existing condition was, and then I called him back sometime during the middle of the operation when I got a report on it, and called back again to tell him the time of Oswald’s death immediately after his death.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about how the security had broken down during any of those three conversations?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Patrick Dean, Sergeant Dean at Parkland?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, he had assigned some of the men out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you about what Ruby had told him as to how he had gotten into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That was the first information that I had received on how Ruby said he got into the basement, was from Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you spoke to Vaughn and Jez who were respectively at the Main Street and Commerce Street entrances?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to Dean, was that before or after you had spoken to Vaughn?

Captain TALBERT. As I recall my contact--I had many contacts with Vaughn regarding, as you may well know, and as I recall that contact, it was after, because I was being rather dogmatic about who was around that entrance with Vaughn at the time. As I recall it, I may be in error here, it might have been after. I mean, it might have been prior to my contact with Dean, and then subsequent contact with Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first talked to Vaughn, let’s put it this way, did you know that Ruby claimed to have come through the entrance that Vaughn was guarding?

Captain TALBERT. I would like to answer you positively, Mr. Hubert, but I can’t. It was the first or second contact. It possibly was the second, but I think it was the first. I believe it was the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the conversation you had with Dean where he told you what Ruby had said about how he entered, was at the hospital site?

Captain TALBERT. Verbatim, you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. No. I mean when you talked to Dean and he told you about what Ruby had said, as to Dean, as to how he got in, that conversation with Dean was at the hospital?

Captain TALBERT. At the hospital; yes, sir. I am sorry, I thought you meant what was my conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Vaughn prior to that time?

Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall. I really can’t recall, Mr. Hubert. I don’t believe I had been able to get in touch with him. You see, getting into telephone contact with these people took a little time, and it also didn’t occur until after I had cleared the lobby of the hospital and posted guards at the doors. But I can’t recall. I mean I can’t remember to give you a definite answer on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Pierce, Lieutenant Pierce about how Ruby came into the basement, if you recall?

Captain TALBERT. Many times.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the first time that you talked to him, do you remember?

Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall the first time. I can’t recall actually getting in touch with Pierce from the hospital. Now I possibly did, but I was a busy man, and I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did talk to Pierce about how Ruby claimed he entered into the basement, did he seem to know about it?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. He was quite vociferous, in fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Vociferous in what way?

Captain TALBERT. Language. We wouldn’t want to put it in this deposition, sir. By that I mean he was alleging that he had entered that Main Street entrance. Lieutenant Pierce said he couldn’t have. And then the vociferousness.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a matter of emphasis on that point?

Captain TALBERT. Was an emphasis on Ruby’s character, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Pierce’s reaction was that it was not true, so far as he knew?

Captain TALBERT. His reaction was startled, and that he even alleged that he came in that way, and that it couldn’t possibly have been true.

Mr. HUBERT. By that you mean that the information conveyed to you by Pierce was that Ruby claimed to have entered through the Main Street entrance as Pierce went out, and Pierce’s reaction was negative on that, and of a vociferous nature?

Captain TALBERT. And startled, as I recall. Sam can be rather positive in his views. He is positive in his views, not can be. And he was very positive in that.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime on the morning of the 24th that threats had come through concerning the harm to Oswald during the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. I am sorry?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime prior to Oswald’s shooting that threats had come to the attention of the police department concerning the safety of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That is the reason I took the action of--if you will analyze what I did with assigning the total personnel that I had assigned that day, and that included myself, including all the patrolmen and supervisors, I took all the precautions possible against mob action, and took elementary precautions against an individual action. And needless to say, from the subsequent events, it was unsuccessful.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact address your consideration of security measures to both types of threats? That is, to the mob action and single action by one man?

Captain TALBERT. Right, sir. The individual officer on Main Street, for instance, we had the buildup of the crowd on the opposite side of the building on Commerce where the people obviously knew was an exit ramp, so the individual officer on Main Street was one of, if not the best patrolmen I have. He is the type person that you can depend on thoroughly, and quite sizable physically. I don’t know whether you have met Vaughn or not, but if we went into physical combat, I would want an edge on him of some sort. And if an individual had tried to attack him to get in, we had adequate personnel in the basement to take care of him if they got past. In my opinion, they would never have gotten past. If a mob had tried to attack him, we still had adequate personnel. We had a total of four--let me correct that. I know positively that we had three tear gas cases down there as well as numerous shotguns or side arms, and we could have taken care of mob action with the short notification we would have had after they go past Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said earlier that you took elaborate precautions against a mob, but I think you used the word elementary. What do you mean by that? What contrast do you mean to point out?

Captain TALBERT. Really, you can erase it. With the normal procedure, the precautions taken were adequate either way, with normal procedure. But capricious, if as this investigation has developed, the entry of Ruby occurred at the time and place in which he said it was, and which apparently is true, capricious fate entered into it on the time element for sure at the exit of a vehicle on an entrance ramp, which is the first time that occurred in a number of years. Something I certainly didn’t foresee, and that is what I was referring to when I said elementary.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, what would have been completely adequate security against one-man action?

Captain TALBERT. Secret transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. By secret, you mean done in such a way and in such a manner that there would not have been a crowd around? Transferred at night?

Captain TALBERT. No announcement. We know that now. It is quite obvious now.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is, to guard against one-man action you have to do it in such a way that there are not a great many people around?