Chapter VII: Front Matter (7)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, would the parking area be in here where I am placing this line?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe so, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will write “Parking” on there. And I will put parking over there, just in front of the main entrance to the hospital.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what happened when you saw Ruby--when you encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital, what the encounter consisted of?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I apparently walked right past him, because the first I was aware of Jack Ruby was that as I was walking, I was stopped momentarily by a tug on the back of my jacket. And I turned and saw Jack Ruby standing there. He had his hand extended. I very well remember my first thought. I thought, well, there is Jack Ruby. I had been away from Dallas 18 months and 1 day at that time, but it seemed just perfectly normal to see Jack Ruby standing there, because he was a known goer to events. And I had my mind full of many things.

My next reaction was to just turn and continue on my way. But he did have his hand out. And I took his hand and shook hands with him. He called me by name. And I said hello to him, I said, “Hello, Jack,” I guess. And he said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing?” I said, “Yes”; but I also knew it was no time for small talk, and I was most anxious to continue on up the stairway, because I was standing right at the base of the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside the building or outside?

Mr. KANTOR. I was inside the building, just immediately inside the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the doors guarded?

Mr. KANTOR. If there was a guard on the door, I don’t recall seeing one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you do recall, however, that there was a guard at the entrance to the emergency area?

Mr. KANTOR. There was at least one guard, yes--when I first got there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Go ahead.

Mr. KANTOR. A Dallas policeman. I am not sure how many Secret Service men or other guards there were. But I do remember this one man, because he let me in.

At any rate, Jack Ruby said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing,” or words to that effect. I agreed with him that it was.

And he said--and he had quite a look of consternation on his face. He looked emotional--which also seemed fitting enough for Jack Ruby.

But he asked me, curiously enough, he said, “Should I close my places for the next 3 nights, do you think?”

And I said, “Yes, I think that is a good idea.”

And I excused myself. And he said he understood, and I went on.

And that was the sum total of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: At the time you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you see any other press representatives whom you had remembered from your days in Dallas, who worked in Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. I didn’t see any outside. However, by the time Kilduff made his announcement at 1:30, there were newsmen coming in from all over whom I recognized. And because of this weird situation, unreal situation, I didn’t speak to any then.

During the next hour or so that I was in the hospital I saw a number of news people from both Dallas and Fort Worth who I at least said hello to, who I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any people from the Dallas Morning News that you saw at Parkland Hospital, either reporters or photographers?

Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I remember seeing, and I don’t think I recall seeing a Dallas Morning News person at all until I got to the police station later that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to tell me who you remember seeing from the Dallas papers at Parkland Hospital, or just who you generally remember seeing during those 3 days.

Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I can remember seeing in the makeshift press headquarters from Dallas and Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At Parkland?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But I take it you don’t remember anybody from the Morning News?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall anyone from the Dallas Morning News, no, as a matter of fact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How far is the Morning News Building in Dallas from the Times Herald Building?

Mr. KANTOR. The better part of a mile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw Ruby, did you notice anybody with him? Did he seem to be with anybody?

Mr. KANTOR. He didn’t seem to be with anybody. The only other people I noticed in this area--as I say, it seemed like a small entranceway, and it was just a very few steps to the stairway--were these people who appeared to be hospital attendants.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if at the time you were at Parkland Hospital there were television cameras setup outside the main entranceway?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I was told later on that various people around the country who I know saw me on television as I came out to talk to the Congressmen before they went out to Love Field, and I was not aware of any cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it is your best impression that you were shown on TV?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I have been told that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any idea what TV networks you appeared on?

Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. This happened frequently, incidentally, over the weekend, also, in the police station as well. I don’t know--I guess all the networks were involved at one point or another, but I don’t know when or where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the first report that you made of this encounter with Ruby, you reported that you saw him before you went to the press conference.

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And now as I understand your testimony, you are not sure whether it was before or after.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and the thing that gave me pause was that Jack Ruby had specifically said to me, or asked me my opinion about closing his places for three nights, and it occurred to me later on that no announcement of the President’s death had been made, as I was following Kilduff up the stairway, at 1:30, whereas at approximately 2 o’clock it had been made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you try to focus on your state of mind at the time that you first wrote your newspaper article about this, and reported that it was before the press conference. What was it at that time that made you think that you saw Ruby before the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. To be honest, with all the events crowded into that weekend, I don’t think that I recalled the significance of my second brief trip out of the hospital to the main entranceway in front of the hospital, and then back in again. It was a very fast trip. And I think it was just a failure on my part to remember the second incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you were going back into the hospital the second time, where were you going?

Mr. KANTOR. I was returning to the makeshift press headquarters in the classroom, on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were entering that building, did you have any expectation that there was something important going on at that pressroom that you ought to get to right away?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I didn’t know. I knew that I was not going with this pool group, and that my people in Washington were interested in knowing the logistics of the U.S. Government at that moment, where Lyndon Johnson was going and what was going to happen, and were we remaining in Dallas, and John Connally’s condition, and everything at once. And this seemed to be the logical place to get whatever information there was, because information was very scanty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get at is whether your concern or apprehension about getting into the building was any greater as you went in before the press conference than it was when you returned after the press conference.

Mr. KANTOR. No; I would say this was a consistent feeling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that your reluctance to stop and talk with Ruby when you saw him wouldn’t have been any greater at one time than at another?

Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I saw really a number of close friends on the second floor of the hospital, newspapermen who I had known intimately, been to their house, and they had been to my house quite often. And we still didn’t indulge in anything resembling small talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question in your mind that you did see Ruby out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. If it was a matter of just seeing him, I would have long ago been full of doubt. But I did talk to the man, and he did stop me, and I just can’t have any doubt about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. As a matter of fact, I didn’t give it much thought, or any thought, perhaps, again, concrete thought at least, until the following night, Saturday night, when things quieted down enough so that I could take a walk in downtown Dallas, somewhere around 10 o’clock in the evening. And I passed by Ruby’s place, the Carousel, and saw a sign on the door stating that it was closed. And I recalled this weird conversation I had had with him at the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. Excuse me--because a man named Barney Weinstein, who operates a strip joint a couple of doors away, had his place open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first think about this again after Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I understood later on that Jack Ruby had been in the assembly room in the basement of the Dallas Police Station after midnight on Friday going into Saturday. I didn’t see him at that time. I was in that room. It was a very crowded room. But I thought about our conversation on Saturday when I passed by his place. And earlier Saturday evening I thought of Jack Ruby because meat sandwiches, beef sandwiches, I believe they were, had shown up in the pressroom of the Dallas Police Station, and I heard someone remark that Jack Ruby had brought them in. I didn’t see him then, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard this while you were at the police station?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; Well, I was going in the room to get a sandwich, and they were gone, they were gone very rapidly. I heard someone either specifically say it to me or I heard someone specifically saying to someone else that Jack Ruby was the person that brought these in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Friday afternoon or late Friday evening, or in the middle of Friday?

Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure now. It seems to me that it was Saturday. It seems to me that it was Saturday, late afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when, after you walked down Commerce Street on Saturday night did you next think about your encounter with Ruby at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, having walked past his place, and having seen that it was closed, I don’t know whether I gave it any more thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean after that, when was the next time you thought about it?

Mr. KANTOR. The next time was just moments after 11:21 a.m., Sunday morning, when I discovered that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do immediately after Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, I didn’t see anything more than a hand and a gun as the shooting occurred. I was very close to where Lee Harvey Oswald was walking. I was intently watching his face and was in hopes I could ask him a question as he approached.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you to do this. We have a diagram here of the jail basement. You might take a look at it. I am going to mark on the diagram “Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor, Exhibit No. 2, June 2, 1964, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will try to explain the diagram to you.

Mr. KANTOR. I think I am beginning to understand. This is a rampway here and a rampway here, is it not?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have got the sides right. Here is the Main Street; here is Commerce Street. Now, the ramp is at this point where it says down ramp--that is the Main Street ramp. And at the base of the Main Street ramp, there are some designations as to footage across the ramp. And then in the portion of the map which is closest to you there is a diagram of the jail office and the hallway that leads from the Harwood Street side of the jail into the ramp area.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to refresh your recollection, the jail elevator which is shown on the map is the elevator that Oswald was brought out of, and he was led around in front of the dotted lines which are shown in the diagram, and then over to a door which is also shown. Now, why don’t you again take a pencil and indicate on the map where you were standing at the time Oswald was shot. Why don’t you just cut a “K” there for yourself.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that you were standing right at what would be the entranceway to the parking area of the garage on the west side of the ramps that lead through the basement.

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you mention in your statement to the FBI that you saw Detective Combest in the basement. Did you know Combest before----

Mr. KANTOR. No; the first time I talked to him was upstairs outside Chief Curry’s office following the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us on the diagram here where Combest was standing, to your recollection?

Mr. KANTOR. Right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Marked with an X. Now, can you put a mark on the map where Ruby was when you first saw him?

Mr. KANTOR. He was on the floor, having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, in approximately the same place where I designated where Billy Combest was standing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So when you say all you saw was an arm and a gun, you didn’t even notice him before the shooting?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I thought it was an officer who shot Oswald. That was my first reaction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you indicated in your statement to the FBI that you heard Combest say something. Did you actually hear that, or did Combest tell you that?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I heard the words and did not know who uttered them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And is it fair to say--well, let me ask you this: The words that you heard, could you tell if they came from one person or more than one person? Or was the confusion so great and things moving so quickly you couldn’t really distinguish?

Mr. KANTOR. It was one man definitely saying, “You son of a bitch.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is your memory?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think you also indicated that you heard somebody yell “Jack”. Do you have any recollection of that now? Somebody saying “Jack”.

Mr. KANTOR. I am not as positive about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KANTOR. Upon talking with Combest upstairs, he told me, he told two or three reporters there that that was what was said, and I used that in my story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw happen after you saw Ruby down on the floor.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, when the shot was fired, and I was still watching Oswald, and heard him groan, and slump--watched him slump. For no good reason at all, I moved in his direction. A man standing next to me from the Dallas Times Herald, a reporter, moved with me. There was a car located approximately right in front of us as we moved. Then we saw a detective come bounding over the roof of the car and onto the hood and landing here, just in front of this melee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you marked the X on the map?

Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe it was Detective Captain Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you see happen?

Mr. KANTOR. I became painfully aware as I moved into this area which was becoming very crowded and there was a lot of shoving and pushing going on--there was a man down on the pavement, and I could not see who it was. I heard one of the detectives, and I believe it was Captain Jones, holler up to a police officer standing here something to the effect that--shoot the first man who tries to move out, or something like that. And I saw this officer swivel around, pointing his revolver down into the ramp. And I became painfully aware that we were all going to get shot and killed in another moment or two, and I tried to back off this way. And the reporter from the Dallas Times Herald, Bob Fenley, knew one of the detectives in this area, as Ruby was being dragged off towards the jail office. The detective was weeping, for one reason or another. And we were being pushed back. However, Fenley crouched down low and moved towards his friend and asked him a question, and came back and said to me very clearly, “The man who shot Oswald is named Jack Ruby.” And I was surprised that Bob apparently didn’t know Jack Ruby, because I thought everybody on the paper knew Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. KANTOR. I was mightily surprised and could not believe what I had heard for a moment. And then I asked Bob if he knew Jack, and he said no. I felt that--I guess my inclinations were as a newspaperman, and I felt I wanted to get to Ruby as fast as possible and question him. And I tried to get through to the jail office area, but there was no chance. We were held there until Oswald was placed in the ambulance right in front of where we were standing, and taken out. Then we were allowed to proceed up to the third floor, and there we waited for close to 2 hours outside of Curry’s office without any word of any sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you interview anybody in the 2 hours that you were standing outside of Curry’s office?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I spoke to Billy Combest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to another police officer--I don’t recall his name--who had been down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any rumors while you were standing outside of Curry’s office as to how Ruby had gotten into the basement?

Mr. KANTOR. No; there was no speculation. I do recall some conversation among reporters who had seen him on Friday night at the assembly room, when I had not seen him. And I was surprised to learn that Ruby had been there at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember the names of the reporters you talked to who saw him in the assembly room Friday night?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, there was one reporter in particular whose name I have in my notes at home. He was a radio reporter from New York City. I am afraid that I just cannot recall his name at this moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you do have some notes at home. Have you retained all or substantially all of your notes from the 3 days that you were in Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. I have kept all my written notes, and then everything was so vivid when I returned that within about 3 weeks or so after I was back I got a tape recorder and talked about 10,000 words into it, which I had not written down, and which I then transcribed by typewriter, and I have those, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do your notes reflect your activities at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show any times?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe they do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes reflect your interview with Billy Combest?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe that my handwritten notes would show that I talked to Jack Combest, after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they show what Combest said?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they reflect----

Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure about the detail. It may have been just a few words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I also understand that you interviewed George Senator on November 24, is that right?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I was about to mention that while we were waiting for Chief Curry to come out of his office, a man arrived just outside the third floor elevator with--I am sorry, I am really going blank on names--with the entertainment columnist for the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Tony Zoppi?

Mr. KANTOR. Tony Zoppi--thank you. That is right. And then the first reaction was sort of one of amusement because Zoppi looked like an entrepreneur of a new event. And I went over. However, there was a large circle of people around George Senator, and I listened to what I could hear, and then moved back to my place which happened to be first in line outside the chief’s office, and I didn’t want to give that up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you listen to Senator?

Mr. KANTOR. Perhaps 3 or 4 minutes. But I got there right at the tail end, because a couple of plainclothes officers came out and removed Senator, and insisted that he should not be talking to the press.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody else you interviewed on the 24th?

Mr. KANTOR. Zoppi came out with a pool report on Jack Ruby’s sister, which a number of reporters listened to and took notes on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were actually interviewing Zoppi at that point?

Mr. KANTOR. That is strictly what it amounted to. I spoke to Captain Will Fritz. I spoke to Captain Glen King. But I might add that from the moment that Oswald was shot, we were really cut off. We were getting no more news--whereas we had gotten from our standpoint marvelous cooperation before--we were finding out nothing all of a sudden.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear Senator say in the few minutes that you did listen to him?

Mr. KANTOR. I heard George Senator say that Jack Ruby had been upset, very much upset, and had gotten up, I believe, rather late Sunday morning and said that he was going to take one of his dogs down to the club. And I heard him say that he had--that Jack Ruby had placed a call to a brother in Detroit. And I remember Senator stressing quite heavily that Ruby had spent the weekend in an upset condition, had cried, had wept quite a bit. I did ask Senator, only because I think I missed the opening parts of the mass interview going on out there in the hall--I asked him how long he had roomed with Ruby, a couple of particulars like that, I think--just basic stuff. What he did for a living.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. I had never heard of him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. About what time did you arrive in the jail basement on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. KANTOR. The transferral, as we understood it, was supposed to be made at 10 o’clock. And I got up leisurely and was staying at the White Plaza Hotel across the street, and made no effort to be there promptly at 10 o’clock. The reason I did that is because Scripps-Howard wire to its newspaper operates at night, and a morning event in itself is not too awfully important.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there before the shooting took place?

Mr. KANTOR. I got there about approximately a quarter to 11. I was checked three times for identification upon getting down to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement, did you remain the entire time in that position “K” that you have marked there?

Mr. KANTOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first went into the basement?

Mr. KANTOR. The regular bank of elevators, that is those going upstairs----

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the Harwood side?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; are about here, are they not?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; the reporter, of course, can’t tell, but just let’s refer to them as the Harwood elevators.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I walked into the building and went up to the third floor first, and then rode the elevator down to the basement--that is the regular elevator. When I stepped out of the elevator, I was stopped almost immediately by an officer, and he would not accept my credentials at all, even though I had a White House card and my old Dallas police card, Texas State Police card.

Some detective, I don’t know who, came over and looked at my credentials and said that they were okay. And I went into the jail office, and took up a position along the west wall. There is a counter--there was a counter opposite me on which a camera was set up, as I recall, and there were a handful of other reporters in there. And Captain Jones at about 11:15 walked in briskly and said that we all would have to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. KANTOR. Fenley and I were together, and I told Fenley to delay leaving as long as possible because it appeared that they were ready to move Oswald, and maybe if we tarried long enough, we could still be in there. But it didn’t work. And though we moved slowly--we moved down the line of people who were along here, and took up a position about here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you mark a “1” there at your first position.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain at position 1?

Mr. KANTOR. We just walked into that position and they pulled out a couple of police cars, one of which was directly behind where I was standing, and, therefore, causing me to move over here, where it was rather crowded, along the post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those police cars go that they moved out?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, as I recall--there may have been three, but I am not sure--one went to the Commerce Street ramp side and one pulled in front of us facing Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that car that was facing Main Street, did it stop, or did you see it go up the Main Street ramp, or what, or don’t you remember?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I don’t remember how many cars were involved. There was a car which pulled out and stopped directly in front of us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a car driving up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t now; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you in the police building on Friday night?

Mr. KANTOR. Until approximately 2:30 in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive that evening or afternoon?

Mr. KANTOR. I went directly from Love Field after the President’s plane took off, and got there about 4 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you remain there continuously, from 4 until 2:30?

Mr. KANTOR. Without a break.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much of that time was spent up on the third floor?

Mr. KANTOR. The entire time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attend the press conference Henry Wade had with Chief Curry in the assembly room?

Mr. KANTOR. I am sorry. I did go down there after midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have notes of that press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I had a lot of trouble hearing, first of all--a lot of trouble hearing Oswald. I picked up a couple of words he was muttering. I was standing on a table about halfway back in the room. And then immediately following that, I guess Henry Wade had a conference. Is that what you are referring to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know--I guess I have got a couple of notes on it. I don’t know how extensive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period you were in the city hall or the police department building on Friday night, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the police department building on Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period were you in there on Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. I was in the building between 10 a.m., and about 9:15 p.m., or perhaps a little bit later in the evening. However, I did leave the building a couple of times to go across the street for food.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Jack Ruby at all on Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I did not see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

Mr. HUBERT. I think you better clarify about the second automobile that pulled up. I got the impression, as you testified, that the front of the second car was headed toward Main Street. Is that correct?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection it was, because I had explained to Mr. Griffin that I remember an officer coming over the top of the car and bounding down to the hood and then off.

Mr. HUBERT. But the first car that pulled up headed toward Commerce Street?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I wish I could be certain about it, but I am not sure of the order. I was mostly aware at that moment that it was apparent that Oswald was about to be moved, and that I was being shoved a little bit to make room for these cars to get out, and that I wanted a good vantage point. And I think that was my chief concern.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that you were in the assembly room at the time Oswald was brought down to see the press, and that you were standing on a table, I think, at the rear, and that you did not see Ruby in that room at all.

Mr. KANTOR. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone make any comment to Wade concerning the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or correct a statement that Wade made in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? Well, let me put it this way: Did you hear Wade make any comment with respect to a Cuban committee at all?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe that there was. I don’t think I took notes on this. Our Latin American correspondent called from Miami early in the evening and had talked about this matter to me. I do vaguely recall some conversation involving Henry Wade on that matter, and I don’t think----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection at present that Henry Wade made a comment about some Cuban committee?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t remember whether he was asked specifically about this, or whether he brought it up. But I do vaguely recall there was some conversation about it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then did you hear someone correct his designation or, rather, the name of the committee?

Mr. KANTOR. It almost seems as though I did. I could not swear to it.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room?

Mr. KANTOR. It was very crowded. I would estimate about 60, perhaps.

Mr. HUBERT. And how large was the room?

Mr. KANTOR. I would say about 25 or 30 yards long, and about 10 to 12 yards wide, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you at the back of the room?

Mr. KANTOR. I was in approximately the middle of the room, standing on a table, which did put me in a position of being more to the rear of the group.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone else standing on a table?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; quite a few were standing on tables. Photographers took up choice positions immediately in front of Oswald, as he was led in. In order both to hear and see I think the majority of people were standing on tables.

Mr. HUBERT. I have no further questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first report to your newspaper that you had seen Ruby at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Again, I telephoned Charles Egger at about 1:30 Sunday afternoon, told him that I was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, and had seen him at the hospital. He said, “That sounds like a pretty good story for tomorrow.” I waited until sometime during the evening to write it simply because we didn’t know what was going to happen next.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notify any police department officials that you had seen him at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. No; as a matter of fact, I wrote it in my story, and never said a word to anybody beyond that.

An FBI man asked me about it about 5 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Kantor, would you look over the two diagrams we have been talking about, Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2, and if those are correct in terms of what we have been talking about, would you sign them?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I would be happy to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And please date it, also.

Mr. KANTOR. Surely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Kantor has signed Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 and dated them.

The taking of the deposition is recessed until a time tomorrow afternoon to be arranged to suit the convenience of Mr. Kantor.

TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR RESUMED

The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 5:10 p.m., on June 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the outset let me ask you if it is agreeable with you that the oath and the formalities which we went through originally yesterday will continue to prevail at this point in the deposition, that you understand it is a continuation.

Mr. KANTOR. I understand I am still under oath.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine. When we recessed yesterday we had asked you to check on certain notes and documents. I want to ask you before we get into that, however, one final question in respect to what we did cover yesterday, and I want to ask you to search your mind and tell us what doubts, if you have any, that you might have that the man who you have identified as Jack Ruby, Parkland Hospital on November 22 was indeed Jack Ruby.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I would like to say that a little more than 6 months have passed and I think I have doubted almost anything in searching my memory which has happened over a period of 6 months or more in my lifetime. I think if you think about something a good deal you wonder whether it actually happened.

However, I was indelibly sure at the time and have continued to be so that the man who stopped me and with whom I talked was Jack Ruby. I feel strongly about it because I had known Jack Ruby and he did call me by my first name as he came up behind me, and at that moment under the circumstances it was a fairly normal conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any acquaintances that you had in Dallas while you were there, who you in the past had mistaken for Jack Ruby? Have you ever had the experience of seeing somebody else and mistaking him for Jack Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. I see what you mean. No; that never occurred at any time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know people in Dallas who ran some of the other nightclubs?

Mr. KANTOR. I had met Mr. Barney Weinstein who operates at least a couple of strip joints that I know of, and that was on one occasion when I was doing a story on a stripteaser named Candy Barr and that occasion was when I was going down to the State prison where she was living at the time to do a story on her for the paper and that was the only time I had met Mr. Weinstein.

However, there is a booking agent in Dallas whose nickname is Pappy, I have his name in my notes here somewhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pappy Dolson?

Mr. KANTOR. D-o-l-s-o-n, that is right. I had done a story on him, and he was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, I knew, and then I saw him while I remained in Dallas after the assassination, spoke to him and interviewed him for a story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do either Weinstein or Dolson bear any resemblance to Jack Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. None. None, nothing that close that I would mistake them. Neither one, I don’t believe, either, would stop me in the passageway of the hospital after I had been gone for a year and a half and call me by my first name. I don’t think they would remember me that easily or have any special reason to call me by my first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have brought a series of papers and notebooks with you. Can you work from these one at a time, can you tell us what you have there?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Initially, I have the notebook I took down with me to Texas from Washington while accompanying the President, and in it are the notes of the trip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me look at it a second.

Mr. KANTOR. Sure, I was just going to recommend you skip the first page. Those were notes I made on the plane going down. From then on anything you want to look at is fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The notebook that you handed me is a notebook that is a long stenographic type notebook. I would say it is 8 inches long and perhaps 3 to 4 inches wide.

Mr. KANTOR. It sounds reasonable, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it has the label “EFF-JAY Notebook” and it is put out by Fox-Jones Co., Washington 5, D.C., and No. 1419 and there is handwritten on the front of this in pencil “President Kennedy’s Trip to Texas, November 21–22, 1963.”

Does anything in this notebook pertain to your activities at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; several pages in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you indicate, can you find in here the pages that pertain to that Parkland Hospital episode?

Mr. KANTOR. I am going to have to apologize for the writing here. Among other things in addition to being a bad scribbler I did much of this on the run, these pages.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t mind I would like to look at them and see again if I can ask some questions from them. Do the notes on the pages which you have separated here follow in chronological order? Is there any way you can tell from looking at these notes when, what time you would have put it down?

Mr. KANTOR. Pretty well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us what portion of those notes you made before the actual press conference with Malcolm Kilduff, if any.

Mr. KANTOR. On this page there are written some idle notes as we moved from Love Field into the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about notes made at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and then starting here, these notes were made immediately outside the hospital as I stood outside talking with Senator Yarborough, and these--from this point on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the bottom of the page of the “Yarb” notes?

Mr. KANTOR. Correct. From that point on--the top of that page to the bottom of the following page I made no notes--which would be approximately a half hour while I was on the telephone and talking in the hallway to the Texas Congressman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The notes which start on the page which said “JFK died at approximately 1 p.m.” Where was that notation made?

Mr. KANTOR. It was made in the makeshift pressroom of the second floor where Malcolm Kilduff led us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is one page you refer to here which starts out, “Yarborough--third car back” and winds up with some notes at the bottom of page--which I won’t attempt to read, not because your writing is any worse than mine but just to save time here for the moment, those notes were all made before the press conference but were made at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do they--do all of these notes represent things which were told you while you were at Parkland Hospital or do they represent things that you might have learned even before arriving at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I am reading this as you were talking, and everything here was gained in conversation with Senator Yarborough standing outside the emergency area of the hospital. That is true, that is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Having had a chance to look at those notes again and thinking about our conversation during the last couple of days--is there any indication from those notes that you knew or had a strong idea prior to the time Kilduff gave this press conference that President Kennedy was not going to survive?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I don’t know whether it was a matter of not wanting to accept the strong possibility, but really until I went into the hospital and saw the priest in the hallway and the look on Lady Bird Johnson’s face, I had no strong premonition about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see the priest and Lady Bird Johnson before the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I did, while I was on the telephone talking to my office in Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. By the time you got off the telephone what was your--and having seen Lady Bird Johnson and the priest and so forth?

Mr. KANTOR. I still didn’t know that the President had been hit in the head, and when Congressman Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been brought in, I knew then that he had been hit in the head but I didn’t know until that point even where he had been hit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have had a chance, I suppose, to talk with other newspaper people and other people who were present at Parkland Hospital since this event, have you not?

Mr. KANTOR. Not in depth. I have had some conversations with people who were there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversations with people who were there, have you gained any information that those who were in the area around Parkland Hospital attentive to what might be going on, had an idea or believed that the President was dead before the announcement was made by Mr. Kilduff?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I am sure I have not asked anybody outside of a couple of Congressmen I have talked to since then who were a lot closer to the situation than I obviously was at that time, and they really knew what was going on. And I haven’t asked anyone, I guess I felt no reason to ask and I don’t recall anyone volunteering that they specifically believed the President was moribund.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to push you into saying something----

Mr. KANTOR. I am not aware of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes here--do you have any notes here which reflect your observations in the Dallas Police Department from the time you arrived there until the time you left Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us in here where those notes are?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Just any and all in the police station?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KANTOR. Right. Where you have placed the marker here is the extent of notes taken in the police station between Friday afternoon, November 22 and Sunday evening, November 24.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask a few questions about the notes. I notice that you have made the notation and I will read it, “Ruby asked question Friday night at press conference.” Do you remember making that notation?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who told you that or how you came to learn that?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. I mentioned yesterday that there was a radio reporter from New York City whose name escaped me and I believe I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have that name now?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe I have it in my notes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KANTOR. The name of the reporter as I have it in here in these notes is Ike Pappas. And--do you want me to read to you what I have here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is the most accurate thing you can give us.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This is what I recalled from memory as soon as I got back from Dallas and read into the tape recorder and this is the way I wrote it down from that. This describes the meeting in the assembly room, in the police assembly room, shortly after Friday night going into Saturday.

“Sunday afternoon District Attorney Henry Wade was to say to the press that Jack Ruby was present Friday night during that strange press conference. I understand or I am told.

“A New York City radio reporter, Ike Pappas, corrected Henry and said that he, Pappas, had been talking with Ruby in the assembly room and Ruby had given him a card and had invited him to be his guest in the Carousel when it reopened. Pappas still carried the card in his wallet; said that he brought Ruby over to the District Attorney and that the D.A. seemed to know Mr. Ruby. Henry smiled but gave no answer, after first saying that Ruby was mistaken for being a reporter.”

The time which I referred to here that Mr. Wade smiled was when Ike Pappas reminded Henry Wade on Sunday that he had talked to Ruby on Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you saying there that Pappas learned from Wade or that you learned from Wade that Ruby had interrupted him, interrupted Wade at the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. It wasn’t so much that I learned it. This was an announcement made by Wade Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening in that same police assembly room to a gathering of reporters among whom I was present in which he said that he understood that Ruby had been present Friday night, and then Ike Pappas said, “You know that he was present because the three of us were talking.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What is the reference that you had in there. I thought I understood the reference in there that Ruby interrupted Wade at some point in the press conference. Is that written in there or did I hear it incorrectly?

Mr. KANTOR. I think that is something you asked me about yesterday, wasn’t it, about an interruption of which I wasn’t sure?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we do this: I am going to mark the pages that we are going to photostat here with separate exhibit numbers on your book, and then, if I may, have these pages photostated, and give you the complete notebook back because we are going to take the full notebook. In other words, I would like to write down at the bottom of the page a number, if I could.

Mr. KANTOR. You mean you want to remove the page?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we are not going to remove the page, but I would like to put a notation on your notebook, with your permission.

Mr. KANTOR. All right; please go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark the cover of this notebook in the following manner: “Seth Kantor, Deposition June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 3, June 3, 1964, for identification.)

Mr. KANTOR. May I say something off the record?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the page “Yarb-third car back,” I will cross out where I have written the identification in full and I will write “3-A,” so that we are correct here. Does this page which I am pointing my finger to, is that a note that was taken at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. At approximately 1:30 during the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, could you find the first page in here that you believe was made at the Dallas Police Station?

I am going to mark these pages at the bottom, subletter “3-B,” “3-C” et cetera, the ones he has identified as having been made at the Dallas Police Station, so that we will have subletters in here and in the record a list of the pages which Mr. Kantor indicates were made contemporaneously with his activities at the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct, Mr. Kantor?

Mr. KANTOR. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have picked out the ones that fit the definition just given by Mr. Griffin?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The last page is where I have put the paper clip.

Mr. HUBERT. We want all of them between the paper clips. I have marked all of the pages starting with 3-A, Mr. Kantor, and running through the alphabet and then starting another series of 3 using double A and double B and so forth through 3 double R, and I ask you if it is not a fact that all of these pages so marked are in your handwriting.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.

Mr. HUBERT. They were notes made by you contemporaneously with the events to which they relate?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will have these photostated and give the book back to you.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

(The documents referred to were marked Seth Kantor Exhibits Nos. 3-A through 3-RR for identification.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Kantor, you have handed me a series of papers which seem to be in order, that is to say, pages running from 1, I think, through 19.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for identification on the first page by placing the following at the bottom: “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of Seth Kantor,” and I ask you what these documents purport to be.

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)

Mr. KANTOR. These documents are notes which I made upon my return from Dallas after spending 16 days following the assassination of the President. They are notes which, by and large, I hadn’t written down as events occurred but which I wanted to put down on paper while I still remembered everything in as great a detail as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Were these notes which have been marked as Exhibit No. 4, made all at one time?

Mr. KANTOR. No; they were not. They were made over a 1-week period.

Mr. HUBERT. What period was that, in point of calendar date?

Mr. KANTOR. They were in December 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. They were made by you?

Mr. KANTOR. They were made by me.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you make them in fact?

Mr. KANTOR. I rented a tape recorder and spoke all of this into the tape recorder and then played the tape recorder back and wrote it down by means of typewriter.

Mr. HUBERT. So that this typing on Exhibit No. 4 is actually your own typing?

Mr. KANTOR. It is my own typing.

Mr. HUBERT. It is not a stenographer or typist?

Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; it is mine.

Mr. HUBERT. And it came from the tape, and you dictated into the tape recorder over a week’s time all of this material?

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you read this recently?

Mr. KANTOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But can you state to us that it represents your best recollection of what occurred?

Mr. KANTOR. It would be a better recollection than I could give you now on anything which transpired.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. With your permission, sir, then we will hold these, have them photostated, and return the originals to you.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is all right.