Chapter XLIII: Front Matter (43)

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you want to say, Mr. Pryor?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then let me ask you this by was of closing. Of course, neither you nor I met before I saw you tonight?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And there was no conversation between us except to introduce ourselves. Otherwise, everything that has passed between us has been recorded by this lady as far as you know, is that correct?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down and taking your evening hours with this.

Mr. PRYOR. Well, I don’t know whether I was any help to you or not, but I appreciate it. For the life of me, I couldn’t bring myself to believe that Jack could do something like that, and I still don’t believe that he had any premeditated thought about it, that is, a circumstance that allowed this thing to happen and it was just one of those things that’s stranger to me than any fiction writer could possibly write.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I am certainly glad you came down.

Mr. PRYOR. All right, fine.

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR WILLIAM WATHERWAX

The testimony of Arthur William Watherwax was taken at 6:55 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Arthur W. Watherwax.

Mr. Watherwax, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Watherwax, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and his movements when you saw him and so forth.

I think you appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but such rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he so wishes, and I think that letter addressed to you is dated June 22. When did you get it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. June 23.

Mr. HUBERT. Today is the 26th. Now, probably you have had the 3-day written notice, but in any case, if it should be short by 1 day, since the rules do provide that you can waive it, you said you are willing to waive that notice?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you stand and raise your right hand so I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Arthur William Watherwax.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. WATHERWAX. At 9302 Piper Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Forty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?

Mr. WATHERWAX. A printer.

Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. WATHERWAX. About 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you employed before that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. At the Horton Bros, in Dallas, as a printer.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve been in printing all your life, I take it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s my trade.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. About 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I guess--maybe several years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way did you come to know him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. His coming up to the composing room with his ads.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him in any other way?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him socially?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or as a friend?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are in the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that it’s customary for the customers who run ads to consult with you as to the format?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; he’s the only customer I have ever seen up there.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did come and it was his custom to come up?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. It was his custom to come and talk to you or others about the composition of his ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He usually talked to the foreman but he usually mingled with the men.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the foreman?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch was the foreman for that shift.

Mr. HUBERT. What shift are you talking about?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The 12 o’clock at night until 7:30 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he usually consulted with you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he usually came up there, after his club was closed usually around 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. He would consult with you about the ad which appeared in the evening edition?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the following day.

Mr. HUBERT. When did it go to press?

Mr. WATHERWAX. It would go to press about 9 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What’s the deadline?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I think it would be out on the streets about 11 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean what’s the deadline for changing the ad and so forth?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, I think some time at night, but he kept wandering in and his ad was so small.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to see him quite often?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Quite a bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having seen him on the morning after the President was shot, that is to say, on the early morning of November 23?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Saturday morning?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning; that is correct?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty as usual?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was your 12 to 7:30 shift?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him before on that day, that is to say, on the 23d?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him on the 22d at all?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time prior to that that you had seen him that you recall?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I don’t even recall, and I may have seen him and I may not have even taken note of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a distinct recollection of having seen him on the night or the morning after the President was shot?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; I remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he there for?

Mr. WATHERWAX. To change his ad. He changed it to “The Carousel Club will be closed for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday,” I think.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the ad had been placed or was it a continuously running ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; continuously--more or less.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come in person or did he telephone?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He came in person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he telephone at all?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He frequently did, but he didn’t that day.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay with you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He was up there, I would say, at least 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Talking with you or with others?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, it was with myself and others.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the others?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor--he was an old friend of his, and the foreman, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the foreman’s name?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he still there?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that Ruby first came, do you remember?

Mr. WATHERWAX. It was about 5 minutes after 4.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s quite a time that you have named. Therefore, I would like you to state why you are able to fix it as closely as you do?

Mr. WATHERWAX. We eat lunch from 3:30 until 4, and right after lunch I usually go back to the restroom and wash my hands, and just as I was walking to the restroom, he came off of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. So you are able to pinpoint the time because it was at the very end of your lunch hour, which invariably, I take it, is from 3:30 to 4?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you fix it as shortly thereafter, or about 5 minutes after?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does the elevator come from?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The first floor--up.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s open to the public?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but there are a couple of nightwatchmen down there that check them in.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he stayed about 30 minutes, which would make it somewhere after 4:30 when he left. Did he stay and talk with you all that while or with others, including you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He started talking to me and I believe Roy Pryor came up and he talked to him also.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the primary purpose of his visit, as I understand, was to change his ad, and he told you how to do it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He discussed it with me, you know, he was always asking somebody’s opinion on something.

Mr. HUBERT. He discussed it with you as to the composition, you mean?

Mr. WATHERWAX. As to whether it would be timely.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean whether it would be a proper thing to do?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; appropriate--if I thought it would be a good idea.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was seeking your advice as well as others as to whether it was a good idea to close the club, aside from consulting you as to the composition of the ad, once that decision was made?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in some doubt as to whether he would close the club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He said he was going to try and get the other owners to join him and they would all close.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the decision, as I understand, was ultimately made to close?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And therefore the ad was changed?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the assassination of the President?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; he was pretty shaken up about it. I guess everybody Was.

Mr. HUBERT. But did he seem to be more shaken up than the average person?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I would say he was more excited about the interview that he had just left evidently. He had been up at the police station for an interview with Oswald and with Henry Wade.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you about that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression now that he was more excited about the fact that he had been present at this interview than he was about anything else?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving, particularly?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No. He thought it was a terrible thing. He mentioned that he had corrected Wade on, I think Henry Wade made a mistake about those two Cuban organizations and Ruby straightened him out. One was called “Freedom for Fair Play for Cuba”, and I forget the other one--what the name of it was.

Mr. HUBERT. He mentioned to you that Wade had made a mistake concerning those two organizations and that he had cleared it up?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when and where he had cleared it up?

Mr. WATHERWAX. At the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. At what interview?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Evidently he spoke up and told him that he was wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about the Weissman ad that had appeared in the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that, sir?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The best I recall, I think he said that it had been traced back to General Walker, and that it had been placed in there to make the Jews look bad.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his comment about the Weissman ad was that he knew or thought that it had been traced back to General Walker?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the purpose was to make the Jews look bad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he elaborate on his expression of how the Jews would be involved or made to look involved in the matter?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; except that he thought that that name Weissman was evidently Jewish, and that he thought it was a plan that would make the Jews look bad, that it would really reflect on the Jews.

Mr. HUBERT. From your general knowledge of him, was he sensitive to the fact that he was a Jew?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I had never noticed it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be on this particular occasion?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Just in reference to that ad--I was sort of surprised when he mentioned it, because I didn’t know that he felt like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem angry or mad or outraged about this ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just that he was concerned that the ad might associate the Jews with the ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that--he didn’t like?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he didn’t like it because it would hurt his business, or did he say what was the reason why he didn’t like it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He didn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention the John Birch Society?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the John Birch Society is?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t say anything about that that night?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He never discussed politics as far as I know--I didn’t even know he was interested.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about Oswald himself?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he said he had seen Oswald up there at the interview and he said he looked like a little weasel--he had a smirk on his face.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything that indicated that he intended to take any action with respect to him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about a fear that the assassination of President Kennedy might somehow be blamed on the Jews in America or elsewhere?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The only reference he made to the Jews then, was in connection with the Weissman ad.

Mr. WATHERWAX (no response).

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way that he thought that Oswald might be involved with some other group?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t think he did. I think he was worried about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, primarily he was a businessman and he catered to tourists. That was his main source of income and I think everybody was sort of worried about business in Dallas after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your analysis of it or did he say anything that night to indicate that he was concerned about his business?

Mr. WATHERWAX. We discussed it--that. You see; I drive a cab part time. That’s one reason why he’s sort of cultivated my friendship because he was always after me to bring him customers, and we discussed how it would hurt Dallas for conventions more than anything else, because that was his main source of income and also for cabdrivers.

Mr. HUBERT. You drove a cab every day?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, no; maybe for a weekend or maybe 2 or 3 days a month.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive a cab on the same day you would go to work?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; it was always on my off days.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was at night?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; night.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you sometimes bring people to his club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but never by my own volition.

Mr. HUBERT. They asked you to do so?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn’t solicit for the club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, no; no.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did bring somebody there, did he compensate you in any way?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He offered to; if I would come upstairs, he would give me a half a dollar a person, but it wasn’t worthwhile.

Mr. HUBERT. You never did collect any half dollars on that, did you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that I gather from what you said that both of you discussed the possibilities that your cab business, such as it was, might be hurt if the tourists stayed away from Dallas and that his club business would be hurt?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he very definitely discussed that aspect of it with you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that seem to be of concern to him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was worried about it. Like I said, primarily he was a businessman. I have often thought that--they said that he mingled with police, he was a glad-hander but he was his own public-relations man and that was all part of the business with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to his club on a social basis?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; I took my wife up there once.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That was the only time--once.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you’ve known him about 7 or 8 years?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; just several years, I would say--maybe longer than that--4 or 5 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to the time he organized and opened the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him when he owned the Vegas Club alone?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It was only when he opened the Carousel?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. These ads that he ran were for both clubs or just one?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He ran two separate ads. Usually the Carousel was the main ad. The Vegas Club was just a little one--a continuous ad. I think his main interest was the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you went to his club, you mean the Carousel?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve never been to the Vegas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When he left at approximately 4:30 or shortly thereafter, did he make any kind of parting comment of significance?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; he didn’t. After he talked to me he was demonstrating a twistboard that he had brought up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he demonstrating it to?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, to our proofreader who is a woman. He got her to try it. I think it was a reducing thing or an exercise thing.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s sort of a thing that you put on the floor and stand on and twist around on?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a rather humorous performance?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; everybody was laughing. You would twist, you would almost have to.

Mr. HUBERT. You said it was one of the female proofreaders who got on it, and was he laughing and joking about it as well?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he went off, and have you seen him since?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with him during the rest of the 23d or the 24th?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that Roy Pryor was there that night too?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever mention to you in the course of the years that you knew him--any friends that he had in the underworld--mobster group?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sort of a name dropper?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention people that he thought were important that he had met?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I never noticed it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything to you to indicate what his relationship with the police was?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your own knowledge what his relationship with the police was?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t--no. The only time that I ever had anything like that, was sitting in my cab in front of the University Club, waiting for a passenger that was upstairs and a couple of conventioners came along and offered me a drink and asked me where all the action was and everything, and it was already closing hours. It was after closing hours and to get rid of them I sent them down to the Carousel. I knew that he was open until 3 o’clock in the morning or 2 o’clock, and I didn’t know, but they were vice squad men, so Ruby got a big laugh out of it--here he says--“I ask you for customers here and you’re sending me down vice squad men.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, these people who appeared to be conventioners and drunks were in fact vice squad men and masquerading as such?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t drive them there but you just told them about it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Later you say Ruby laughed and joked with you about it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t angry about it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He apparently got into no trouble as a result of it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I think they sort of considered him as a joke, I guess, more than anything else. I think everybody sort of--they didn’t pay him much attention.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, evidently he didn’t seem to have very much intelligence. He was just a pusher.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your impression of him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I wouldn’t say--he wasn’t educated.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the relationship between you and Ruby was friendly?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you consider him to be an intelligent person?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Who--Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t think so. Of course, I only knew him casually.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anything about him which would throw light on his character in the sense of whether he had a hot temper or not?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, I have taken some of his strippers home in the cab, and the few that I had, said that he had a reputation of that.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; they said he would hire and fire and hire and fire, you know, so evidently he had a pretty quick temper.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you gathered from the strippers that you had occasion to have as fares?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. From the Carousel to their home?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They expressed that view to you or talking among themselves?

Mr. WATHERWAX. To me--I only had them as singles. I didn’t ride the group.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they indicate that he made any sexual advances toward them?

Mr. WATHERWAX. One of them told me that that was one of the reasons there was such a big turnover, that that was part of the job--that when they were hired, that was part of the job--almost understood to be part of the job.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that they would have to have sexual intercourse with him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s what she said.

Mr. HUBERT. One woman told you that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; she said that if you didn’t, he would fire you.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who that was, do you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. It’s been about a year and a half. I know I was sorta surprised because he never appeared to be that type to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be a normal type man sexually to you or did you ever notice any traits which you considered homosexual?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He just never talked about it.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t consider that he was homosexual?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s all, sir. Now, Mr. Watherwax, have you anything further you wish to add that might throw any light on this?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s about all I can say.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any conversation between us except that which has been recorded here, because if there is, we are supposed to develop it, but as a matter of fact, except for introducing myself as you walked into the room, all of our conversation has been recorded?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir, very much, and I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. WATHERWAX. You’re welcome.

TESTIMONY OF BILLY A. REA

The testimony of Billy A. Rea was taken at 12:20 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Billy A. Rea.

Mr. Rea, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Rea, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates, and his movements and whereabouts on November 22, particularly.

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have appeared here today, Mr. Rea, by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. REA. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, sir, do you have it?

Mr. REA. I believe it was Monday, June 22.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. REA. I received it yesterday. That came to my house Wednesday, however, no one was home.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say this to you--under the rules adopted by the Commission, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that notice if he sees fit to do so, and I ask you if you are willing to testify now and waive the notice?

Mr. REA. Yes, I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you rise and let me administer the oath, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so, help you God?

Mr. REA. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. REA. Billy A. Rea--Billy Andrew Rea.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. REA. In Lancaster, Tex., 157 Arbor Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. How far is that from Dallas?

Mr. REA. Well, the city limits are adjacent--I live about 14 miles from downtown Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. REA. I work for the Dallas Morning News on the retail advertising staff.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. REA. Forty.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Children?

Mr. REA. Three.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. REA. Nine years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. REA. I edited and published a suburban paper in Wynnewood.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve been in the newspaper business, I take it, all of your life?

Mr. REA. Yes; practically since I got out of college in 1949.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to college?

Mr. REA. At Texas Christian University.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you graduate?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What degree do you have?

Mr. REA. Bachelor of arts in journalism.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was in 1949?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you serve in the war?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Honorably discharged?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Rea, I have previously handed you a document consisting of one page which I have marked for identification on the right-hand margin as follows: “Dallas, Tex., June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Billy A. Rea,” and have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and this document purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963. As I say, I have previously handed it to you so that you could read it and now I ask you if this half-page report is a correct report on the interview had of you by those FBI agents. Is there anything wrong or incorrect?

Mr. REA. Well, other than the fact that they misspelled my name, like I told you a minute ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Your name in that report is spelled “Ray,” whereas, in fact your name is spelled “Rea.”

Mr. REA. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And your first name, instead of ending in “ie,” ends in “y” [spelling] B-i-l-l-y?

Mr. REA. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, is Exhibit No. 1 correct?

Mr. REA. Not exactly. It says here that I recall seeing Jack Ruby sitting in Don Campbell’s chair “which chair is directly in front of the desk of Miss Georgia Mayor.” That is not correct. He was sitting in Don Campbell’s chair all right, but that chair is directly in front of the desk occupied by John Newnam. I don’t know how this got in here. I don’t recall anything other than that, except that it’s just a technicality, I presume--that is.

Now, also, he was there and I do recall him sitting in the seat directly in front of Georgia Mayor, however, that seat is occupied and assigned to Dick Saunders, who was here previously. He sits right directly in front of Georgia.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you first see Jack Ruby on that day?

Mr. REA. Well, you see, I had attended a funeral of a very close friend of mine that day and had gotten into the office late. I had a lot of things to do that I had postponed and I was in quite a bit of a hurry, and consequently that kept me from going to or attending the parade. I had planned to and wanted to. I got into the office just before noon, so I had to go eat to get with my business--I was running far behind, so we went to eat--I went to eat with a friend of mine and we got back into the office about between 12:30 and 12:40, I would say.

I don’t recall seeing Jack Ruby at that time. He could have been there but I don’t remember seeing him, whether he was in the office at that time or not. About that time--we hadn’t been in the office over a couple of minutes until these boys, the men I work with, some of them were actually at the scene of the assassination--they ran up there and told us that President Kennedy had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Who in particular do you remember telling you that?

Mr. REA. Jim Willmon told me--he’s the one that told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been to the parade?

Mr. REA. Yes; he saw it or heard the shots.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the first news you got about the President?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?

Mr. REA. Well, I would say it was a quarter of one, I guess. Then, we went up--then, goodness--first of all--I thought--he’s the type boy that will kid a little bit, you know, he’s sort of an outspoken type individual, you know, and I thought--well, he was kidding, and I guess everybody else did too with the original idea or feeling or reaction to it, but then when I realized that he was serious, then we went upstairs up to the editorial room, thinking that perhaps we could get later information as it comes in, and so we went up there and stayed about 15 minutes or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen Jack Ruby then?

Mr. REA. I don’t recall seeing him all that time. I don’t know whether he was there or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What time do you think you got back from the room?

Mr. REA. It must have been around 1 o’clock or shortly after 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you then heard anything about the shooting of Officer Tippit or of an officer?

Mr. REA. Oh, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came down----

Mr. REA. Well, I say--no--the original report was that three FBI men or a couple of Secret Service men had been shot also.

Mr. HUBERT. You figure that when you came down from the pressroom it was about 1 o’clock?

Mr. REA. Yes, within 5 or 10 minutes either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you came down to the second floor?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you saw Ruby?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he then?

Mr. REA. He was at Don Campbell’s desk--that’s where he was. He was sitting there in Don Campbell’s chair which was directly in front of John Newnam’s desk, not Georgia Mayor’s.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?

Mr. REA. Sitting there--just sitting there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to you?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or you to him?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You had known the man, hadn’t you?

Mr. REA. Oh, yes, I knew him--not personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Newnam there with him?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?

Mr. REA. He was alone.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Saunders there?

Mr. REA. I don’t recall whether Saunders was there or not. I don’t remember. He could have been--I don’t remember. I can’t specifically identify him as being there. He could have been, but you know, confusion reigned, but I do definitely remember him sitting in that chair.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to show you a chart which has been marked as Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of John Newnam. It is a chart drawn by Mr. Newnam and I ask you to see if you can recognize it. Here is Young Street and here is Houston Street, and it purports to be the second floor?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the promotion department over on the right-hand side?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Over in this corner is Mr. Jeffery’s office?

Mr. REA. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. This desk No. 1 is his desk and this little dot with a circle is a TV set in his office?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you will notice that the retail advertising department is about the middle of the page and that each desk is numbered?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where you first saw Ruby--at what desk?

Mr. REA. Right here (indicating on Exhibit No. 4).

Mr. HUBERT. You are making a little “X” mark there between desks 23 and 25, right?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark it “Position of Ruby When First Seen By Rea,” is that right?

Mr. REA. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was sitting or standing?

Mr. REA. He was sitting.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is Mr. Newnam’s desk?

Mr. REA. No. 23.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him Mr. Newnam was not there?

Mr. REA. That’s right. There was no one around the desk.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him ever between desks 5 and 3?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose desk is that?

Mr. REA. Let me see--This is the desks for the secretaries and 3 is Georgia Mayor’s and 5 is Dick Saunders--yes--that would be correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him there?

Mr. REA. Yes; later on in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he talking to or was he alone?

Mr. REA. Yes; he was talking to--well, from time to time I saw him talking to various people. I do recall him talking to Georgia Mayor, our secretary.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall him talking to Saunders?

Mr. REA. I think--well, it seems like that later on--I know Dick was in there--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It would have been after 1 o’clock?

Mr. REA. Yes; oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him around the TV set?

Mr. REA. Yes; I observed him in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. What seemed to be his reaction at that time?

Mr. REA. Oh, he definitely had a look of despair. I don’t know what you’d say--it was--he was emotionally “shookup” so to speak. There was no question about that. Of course, like I’ve told these other men that I’ve talked to, so was everybody else.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the point I wanted to get at. Do you think that he was more “shookup” than the other people around there?

Mr. REA. I’ll say--I’d say that he had a little bit different look--yes--a different type of an expression; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a recollection that you formed at that time or since?

Mr. REA. No, sir--yes--well--when I heard of the--well; yes, the picture of him just sort of stood out. It really impressed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, mind you, this was before he had had anything to do with this?

Mr. REA. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You now recall that he had a look that was different from other people’s?

Mr. REA. Well, yes; and I realized it at that time. Of course, now, you’d look around and people were crying, some of them were crying. He didn’t shed a tear, that I saw. Other people were staring at the floor, but this guy had an ashen, pale look that, you know, like he was in a state of shock.

Mr. HUBERT. And you noticed it then?

Mr. REA. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course afterwards, I suppose, when he became more closely connected with the matter, your recollection went back to that mental image?

Mr. REA. That’s right. I was just getting out of church when this happened. I didn’t watch it on television, so when we came out we tuned in the radio or right away turned it on and all this big bedlam was going on, that Oswald had been shot, and so within 5 minutes I was home, and within another 5 minutes this Georgia Mayor who also lives in Lancaster called, called over, and we discussed it at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you discussed your former recollection that he seemed to be more shocked than anyone else?

Mr. REA. Oh, yes; or the sort of strange look that he had, and like I said--also--whether that’s the normal thing for him under similar circumstances, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about closing the club at any time on that day?

Mr. REA. I never one time talked to him. I had no conversation with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the shooting of the officer?

Mr. REA. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you about the shooting of the officer?

Mr. REA. No; I did not hear him make any comment of any kind to anybody. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not aware whether he even knew that the officer had been shot?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him make any comment about the Weissman ad?

Mr. REA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with what the Weissman ad is?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He never commented to you about it?

Mr. REA. Not to me; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the taking of the Weissman ad or placing it?

Mr. REA. No, sir; not a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did?

Mr. REA. I believe--well, Cy Wagner approved it. He’s the director of advertising, and a boy by the name of Dick Houston, I believe, actually took the money and ordered the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time Ruby left the second floor of the Dallas Morning News Building?

Mr. REA. No, sir; I couldn’t tell you that. I just don’t know. I left about--personally--oh, I’d say about 3 o’clock myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there then?

Mr. REA. Well, he was there then. I believe he was--I don’t even remember--I can’t remember that--I don’t know. It’s a mere guess, but I’m almost positive he was still there. Now, I don’t know--he could have gone and come back--I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that he might have been there as late as 3 o’clock?

Mr. REA. Well, it just seemed like--it seemed to me like he was there all afternoon. Now, he may not have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure about your leaving at 3 o’clock?

Mr. REA. I’m not positive about it--no--I do know I went downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear of the President’s death?

Mr. REA. Oh, well, when they announced it--whenever it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard the announcement?

Mr. REA. Yes; I heard the announcement.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there then?

Mr. REA. Well, I believe that when I actually heard that he was dead, that when they made the official announcement, that I was watching it on television in Dick Jeffery’s office and there were, I guess, 50 people around at the time milling around. I don’t know whether he was there or not.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him?

Mr. REA. It was likely that he was--I could not swear to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any particular reaction that he had to the President’s death as opposed to the shooting of the President?

Mr. REA. No; I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him leave, physically?

Mr. REA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all. Have you any other comment to make?

Mr. REA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby thereafter?

Mr. REA. No, sir; well, I was subpenaed, well, not subpenaed either--they just called me.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean before the 24th?

Mr. REA. Oh, no--no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t think there has been any conversation between us that has been off the record, is that right?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Everything that has occurred between us has been on the record?

Mr. REA. Oh, yes; as far as I’m concerned.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. SAUNDERS

The testimony of Richard L. Saunders was taken at 11:45 a.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Richard L. Saunders.

Mr. Saunders, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Saunders, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and his movements such as you may know them on the pertinent dates.

Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to come, is that correct?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you recall?

Mr. SAUNDERS. The date of the letter is June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. On June 24.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission pursuant to the joint resolution of Congress, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules also provide that they may waive that written notice if they see fit to do so and I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and testify now?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That is correct. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, so that I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, first of all, I have previously handed to you so that you could read it, a document consisting of three pages, and which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Richard L. Saunders”, below which I have signed my name. The document as I said, consists of three pages and I have marked on the second and third pages my initials in the lower right-hand corner. This purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963.

I have asked you to read it and to state to me now whether or not this is a correct report of that interview. I notice that there are some little question marks that you have here and perhaps it is best to take them one by one.

Mr. SAUNDERS. In general substance, that is a correct statement. There are some minor clarification points which I would like to bring out.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there is a question mark, apparently, next to the last sentence of the second paragraph on page 1, which sentence reads as follows: “He estimated that it took him a total of 10 minutes to arrive at his office after the President’s car passed him and said that this would make his arrival time at approximately 12:40 p.m.” Do you have any comment to make about that, sir?

Mr. SAUNDERS. The travel time of 10 minutes is correct. The arrival time of 12:40 would be dependent upon the time of the assassination, which I am not aware of at this moment. In other words, if the President was shot at 12:30, I would have arrived at approximately 12:40.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the President himself passed you?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I was approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass, at the railroad overpass at Stemmons.

Mr. HUBERT. And you walked back?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I was in my automobile. My car was parked at that underpass and I was outside of the car at a police motorcycle barricade.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact witness the shooting?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we could not see the actual site. We could see the building the Texas School Book Depository Building, but you could not see the area of the assassination from the area where I was positioned.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left the position from which you walked, were you then aware that there had been some shots fired?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes. There was one of our reporters, Mr. Larry Grove, was at that point with me and I asked Larry what had happened and he said both Connally and Kennedy had been shot. At that moment a directive came over the police radio on one of the motorcycles that the shooting came from--and they directed the personnel--whoever they were talking to over the radio to the given window, which has now been purported that from which the shots of the assassin came.

Mr. HUBERT. But you heard about it over the police radio of a motorcycle standing nearby where you were?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police announcement that the shots had come from a particular window in the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if they described the window on the radio?

Mr. SAUNDERS. They said--I believe--it was the next to the top floor, an open window at the far right-hand side, and then there was evidently some communication there which I missed, and they clarified, “No; as you are standing facing the building it would be on the sixth floor.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you heard that, had the Presidential car carrying the President to the hospital passed by?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; it was just moments before that they had passed by.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you see the President or the Presidential party?

Mr. SAUNDERS. We could see the party. You could not define anyone specifically in the car. There was what I now assume was an agent perched on top of the convertible in the rear, hanging on for dear life, and everybody else except the driver was crouched down in a pile, so to speak, in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?

Mr. SAUNDERS. You could see no one. It was just a mass of people. The only two people you could possibly distinguish were the rider on the back seat of the convertible, with his foot in the seat sitting up in the back hanging on, and the driver in the car. The car went by at a very high rate of speed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after that--after the shots--did you observe what you have just described?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, I heard no shots. From my point there was enough traffic noise and general commotion that you couldn’t hear shots.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that the President had been shot?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, not more than 1 minute after the car had passed.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when the car passed, you were not aware that there had been some shots?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was only then when you heard it over the radio, I suppose, that you knew it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, at that moment as the car went by, there were two, possibly three, cars came by a few moments later--not necessarily in a close group, but they came filtering through--each in a high rate of speed.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you away from the Presidential car?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, 25 feet--two lanes of traffic.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was your car parked?

Mr. SAUNDERS. On the center median of Stemmons Expressway at the railroad overpass, approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass. There is a bisecting rail line there.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing beside your car?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police motorcycle there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. There were several police motorcycles there--purportedly to stop traffic on Stemmons as the Presidential motorcade came through.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, roughly 150 yards--100 to 150 yards.

Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the news over the radio, the police radio, what did you do?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I got back in my car.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?