Chapter XXII: Front Matter (22)

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I said to her, “Tell Hyman he left his glasses here.” He had been there for dinner. He had had some throat surgery, just been out of the hospital a day and I remember he asked me to prepare some kind of foods for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Eva say to you when--when she talked to you on the telephone?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said--I remember this. I felt--she says, “You know, I feel worse about this than when Pa died,” and we did because my father was 89, you know, and it [President Kennedy] was a man really in the prime of his life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I understand your testimony, you talked with Eva Friday evening and some mention was made that Eva would call Hyman?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she said something that she was going to call him and I said, “Well, don’t forget to tell him he left his glasses at my house.” I am sure it was that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We talked about this when I was down in Dallas and she says, “Don’t you remember I called you?” I says, “Well, I thought I called you.” Of course, we could check it, I suppose, to see who called who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the conversation that you have just related about Hyman and the glasses? This is something that you remembered on your own or did somebody have to remind you of that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think Eva reminded me. She said, “Don’t you remember to tell”--Well, we call him “Mess.” It is a nickname--“that he left his glasses.” I says, “Oh, that’s right.” I mean, you know, it didn’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, originally, when you talked to Eva, did you have any recollection of the telephone conversation at all with Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I didn’t understand that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first talked with Eva----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when you later talked with her down in Dallas.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any recollection at all that you had--you are the one that called her or that you had talked with her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday night?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, yes. I knew I had talked because I remember distinctly the remark that she said, “Eileen, I feel worse about this than when Pa died.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the remark about Hyman and the glasses was one that she had to remind you about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it came about because we didn’t know who called who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you talked to Jack on Friday afternoon, did he mention to you where he had been earlier that day?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t recall whether he--but I assume he was calling me from his club because as I say, I could hear another voice. He said it was his porter. I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t remember what he said about----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of religious practices did your mother maintain in the home when you were growing up as a girl?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we weren’t too religious. At least, I don’t feel I had too much religious training or any training.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What training did you have?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I never went to--what you call--Hebrew school. In those days, girls didn’t. Now, today, it seems to be the fashion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We adhered to certain conservative Jewish principles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones in particular?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, observing the holidays as best as we could, you know, fasting on the high holidays. When we were younger, we did that more religiously than we do now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any practices maintained in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was, more or less, of the holiday or our Sabbath, you know, Friday evenings, Saturday; and naturally, if we had jobs and had to work on a Saturday, we did, although orthodox people don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right. You didn’t observe the Sabbath as the Orthodox Jews do?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother maintain two sets of dishes?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not--no; I don’t remember that. We had many sets, pieces of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your observance of the religious practices go beyond observing the high holidays?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was a special dinner as a rule. It was a little more elaborate, shall I say, and we did, in a sense, restrict ourselves to Saturday not doing housework.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, you are not supposed to do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you observe any of the dietary laws at all in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we didn’t mix dairy foods with meat foods. Now, we would never serve milk while having meat on the table, you know, never do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is--that is a different thing from keeping different sets of dishes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in a sense, it is the same thing because one set of dishes would be used for dairy food and one set for meat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did your mother do that? Did your mother observe that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know, when I was old enough to notice, I didn’t notice any separate dishes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother--did your mother know how to read and write?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She could sign her name but she couldn’t read or write.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure she could sign her name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I seem to remember her having done that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent did she speak English?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you children all able to speak in Yiddish?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; did he speak English?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, better than my mother but with a definite accent. We spoke a great deal in Jewish to him, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you want to tell us that might be useful to the Commission?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I wrote you that letter about Mrs. Tice. Was that ever checked out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we have interviewed her and I am going to take her testimony tomorrow down in Dallas.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, are you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And about this Rufus Fayette, did you see that letter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know that I saw that.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well now, the night before, the Thursday night, before the Friday that Officer Dean’s testimony was so damaging, he had been released from the county jail in Dallas, I believe, that same day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fayette?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe it is Fayette or Layette. I asked Jack to--for his name. I didn’t want to ask any of the policemen, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. So Jack--that’s the name Jack gave me. He had operated the elevator there all the time during the selection of the jury and during the part of the trial that he was there for. And he called my sister Eva about 11 o’clock this Thursday night. I tried to figure back the date. I think I wrote it in a previous letter I addressed just to the Commission itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he said that this man who, I guess, he is a private detective or detective who takes the polygraph test, Sweatt, Allen Sweatt, had been riding in the elevator with him and Allen Sweatt said that, “Unless the State’s attorney can drum or rook up some good witnesses for tomorrow, I am going to walk Jack Ruby right out of this jail, because the State’s attorney has lost the case.” And it was the very next morning that Dean gave his testimony, if I remember correctly. I wasn’t in the courtroom because I was supposed to be a witness so they didn’t let me in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. So I found out--I don’t know how we found out that he worked at the Southwest Automotive Parts. I don’t know whether Jack found that out for me or not. I did ask Jack, and anyway, he did say he worked at some sort of automotive parts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We heard it was Southwest Automotive because that possibly----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you don’t have any information that Sweatt was aware of the witnesses--your suggestion, I take it, that until that Thursday night, nobody had ever heard of Officer Dean’s testimony? Well, you don’t know?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know whether Sweatt was in communication with the district attorney and had any idea what the district attorney might have had as--might have had Dean lined up as a witness for a number of days?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you don’t have any information that Sweatt knew at that point----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That the district attorney----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. But we knew--I mean I knew that Dean would eventually testify because I believe, previously, there had been something in the papers about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think even previously, if I am not mistaken, he had said that Jack had told him that he planned to kill Oswald--oh, and incidentally, at the hearing, April 29, for the motion for the new trial, this Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair from, I believe it is channel 8 down there, I think, station WFAA, talked to us and Tom Alyea said he had just spoken to Dean in a corner and he said Dean said to him--“I didn’t say Jack planned it.” I said, “Jack said if given the opportunity to kill Oswald, I would do it.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. We have already--we have interviewed Alyea and that is A-l-y-e-a.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That is what----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t recall right now what he told the FBI or anything but they did interview him. Did Mrs. Tice contact you or did she contact one of your sisters?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She called Eva’s apartment and I answered the phone. I stayed with Eva down there. I don’t remember just how long after the verdict, but she said that she didn’t call previously because she had been in an automobile accident and as a matter of fact, she wasn’t supposed to be in Parkland Hospital that Friday, you know. She had----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Mrs. Tice then; in person?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair took Eva and me out there because we had no car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And they were nice enough to take us out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said it was Jack--she said later she saw him on the television and heard his voice and she says--she knows that it was Jack that she saw outside of Parkland Hospital. I believe I wrote you these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you talk with Jack about that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We asked him once--oh, even before the--no, it couldn’t have been before the trial because she called afterwards, and he couldn’t remember to be very truthful. He couldn’t remember being at Parkland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He’s denied that he was at Parkland. I mean, not simply out of memory. He’s flatly denied that he was at Parkland Hospital.

Did this Mrs. Tice indicate to you that she had read any of the newspaper articles that had been previously written by a man who claimed he saw Jack at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know, there is a newspaper reporter----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Is there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who wrote an article, a couple of days after Oswald was shot, and this newspaper reporter said that he saw your brother at Parkland Hospital. Now, did Mrs. Tice indicate that she had read that article?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; she didn’t, but she did say that--that when Jack asked and--“Can someone donate a kidney or can a kidney be donated?” A man answered, “Yes, Jack,” as though, you know, he knew Jack. He said, “But what nut would do it?” And Jack said, “I will.” She thought this man might have known Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she have her automobile accident?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think she said in January.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did she tell you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I’m not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why she didn’t make this information known before January?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe she said--well, the first thing, she didn’t even want her husband to know anything about it, even when she called me. She asked me if I did call; to call before 1 o’clock, because her husband comes in from work then, 1 in the afternoon and she felt he wouldn’t want her to get involved. And I--I believe--I am not positive but she never dreamt that the verdict would be such, you know. She felt that a verdict like that was so----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a woman did she appear to be?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe in her middle forties. I thought, when I spoke to her on the phone, that she was a little, old woman, you know. Her voice seemed very weak, and I thought she might be a woman in her seventies. I was very much surprised to see her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about her which would indicate to you that she might not be reliable?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; as a matter of fact, she told me that she had worked, or been in charge of the juvenile home down in Dallas for quite awhile, superintendent or something, some fairly high capacity.

So I thought that--I took this into consideration. I thought her a person of some responsibility and, as a matter of fact, I believe she adopted several of the children from there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She is married?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Wilma Tice, W-i-l-m-a.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that she said about her job at the children’s home in Dallas?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That she had--I just don’t know what capacity she was employed there, but it sounds to me she was with someone--of the head of the department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Juvenile department, children who are abandoned or orphans who are brought there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you speak with her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I spoke several times to her. She called that one time and spoke quite awhile, and I believe I called her, and then she called again, I believe, not too long ago. She’s called Eve, Eva.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did she tell you about her background of herself?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you how she happened to go out to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you whether she went alone or with somebody else?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I know that she didn’t want her husband to know she had been there. That she mentioned. I guess she wasn’t supposed to drive or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she have any children of her own other than the ones she claims she adopted?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t believe so; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she actually tell you she had adopted children?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet her husband?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I didn’t. We made it our business to get there and leave before 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say whether or not she’d be willing to testify to this, at the trial?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she would. She did. Another incident, Mr. Griffin, I can’t recall Jack’s cleaning woman’s name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Pitts, Clara?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Elnora.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Elnora, yes. I believe it was she. I don’t know how this came about, but we learned that while she was waiting to give her testimony, that he saw and heard the two--two of the doctors that the State was calling upon after her--now, I don’t know--I was trying to figure out if they were Forrester or McKay, I just don’t remember, to be truthful, that they were writing down about what they were going to say, and one of them said too, as a matter of fact, I believe we have a reporter’s affidavit or what do you call it, notarization--she gave a statement and signed it.

One of them said to the other, “You are not to say that. I will tell you what to say,” and these doctors followed her on the stand or in the not too far beyond her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t--she didn’t tell you what it was that they were talking about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. About what they were going to say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was no--there was no statement by them that neither one of them was to state that they weren’t--there is no suggestion that they were concealing any evidence or anything, is there? It was just a question of who was going to say it?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; there was--one made the statement, “You are not to say that. Here, this is what you are to say.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. In other words, he was changing the other one’s opinion or statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know what it was that they were specifically----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically they had in mind?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; but I believe a statement was taken from----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Pitts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Did Eva mention this at all?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know a statement was taken because I remember Eva said she needed $35 or $38 to pay for it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that your brother Jack made on the Saturday night before he shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I don’t. Someone did say--well, about phoning Al Gruber. I don’t know when that was, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that he made to a man by the name of Breck Wall?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; never heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the weekend of November 22d to 24th did Jack make any telephone calls to you other than the one he made on Friday?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him again after----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Friday call?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; that was the only one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; I don’t think I have any more questions. I will ask you once more if there is anything else that you think you’d like to tell us.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. There’s been so much. I--I can’t--if you can help me, you know, pertaining to something, I mean, of course, you have asked me all you want to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me then say that if there is anything that should come to your mind after this is over, you know, we welcome anything you have to tell us. We’d be happy to hear from you. Either you can write us or call us or do what you think is best.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. The only thing that does come to my mind--I don’t know--just--it must have been during the trial, when we were up to see Jack, because he said, “The policemen are lying.” I mean I don’t know if that’s--but he did tell us that. He told us that many times. “I am telling you the policemen are lying, policemen are lying.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you when he decided he was going to shoot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; no, no. I’m sure that he hadn’t even thought about it because Eva says Saturday afternoon he said to her, “We will go to Tippit’s funeral,” and she hadn’t been out of the house from her surgery, and she thought, “Who wants to go to anyone’s funeral. I don’t know the man even though it’s such a terrible thing.” He said, “Well, aren’t you going to go with me?” She says, “All right, I will go. I will go.”

Here, he planned that for Monday. He evidently--it had been announced that the funeral would be on Monday, but I am sure he had no thought of--and I say, when he called, he says, “Maybe I will fly up to be with you,” you know, meaning the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I discouraged him. You can’t imagine how many regrets I have about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; well, thank you very much.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You’re welcome.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Glad that you could come in and see us.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I hope I have been of some help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think you have.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. OK.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE WILLIAM FEHRENBACH

The testimony of George William Fehrenbach was taken at 9:30 a.m., on July 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure in these hearings is for me, for the examiner, to identify himself and explain to you the nature of the proceeding we are going through and then to give you a chance to ask any questions before I actually swear you in.

My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order signed by President Johnson in late November of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

The Commission has been directed by virtue of those official acts to investigate into and to evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Commission has been authorized to promulgate a set of rules and regulations and which I believe were mailed to you.

Under the rules and regulations of the Commission I have been given the authority to take your deposition here today.

Our purpose in calling you in particular, Mr. Fehrenbach, is to inquire into what you may know about Jack Ruby, but also I might say, generally to obtain any information that you would have pertaining to the death of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy.

I believe you received a letter from us?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us when you actually received that letter?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Sunday morning. The first letter. I had talked to you on the telephone, and then you told me that you wanted me here Wednesday. So by my being in business for myself I had to work all night Saturday night, and I was still there, I think it was around 9 o’clock Sunday morning the post office called and, of course, they couldn’t deliver the letter to me because the building where I worked was locked, so I went to the post office and got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask you is that under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have notice 3 days in advance of your appearance before the Commission, and I would ask you if you had not received that 3-day notice whether you had, whether you were willing to waive the notice requirements to go ahead with the deposition, but I see from what you said that you did receive it 3 days in advance so we are within the rules.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask before I administer the oath to you and ask you to answer questions?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you will then raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. George William Fehrenbach.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mr. Fehrenbach?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. In Ashland, Oreg.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. March 8, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Muncie, Ind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lived in Muncie until I was 23 or 24, I believe. I could be wrong now. This is going back so far here. It would have been later than that. About 24 or 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place that in terms of a particular year?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It would be around 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I left there and went to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Jacksonville?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in Jacksonville, Fla., for about 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go from Jacksonville?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. To, I went back to Muncie, Ind., was going to stay there for a couple of weeks and visit and then we were going to move on to Grants Pass, Oreg., but we ended up staying there about a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first went to Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. We went to Oregon, I left for Oregon in March, I believe, it was, of 1959 or 1960, I couldn’t say for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you arrived in Oregon in March of 1959 or 1960?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the year 1959 or 1960?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was a bad year because I was in Muncie and then my mother-in-law passed away and we was there, I stayed there approximately 8 to 9 months, and there was nothing to do there. I couldn’t go back in the jewelry work because there was already a jeweler there and he was pretty well established.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Don’t you remember how many years you were working in Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Bob Buckmaster for 2 years, and the Bates Plywood for 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let’s go back. Are you now self-employed, is that correct?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you run a jewelry store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I have a jewelry shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a jewelry shop, what is the name of the town in Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Medford, Oreg., is where I have the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; and you live in what town?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Ashland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been operating this shop in Medford, Oreg.?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I bought this shop the first of March of last year; 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, prior to March of 1963, what did you do immediately prior to March of 1963?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was off. I wasn’t working at all for about, roughly I would say around a year and 9 months due to an injury.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of an injury was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, my first injury was with Bates Plywood. I had a ladder slide out from underneath me and I just barely got to the place where I was getting around again and I was ready to go back to work again and I was bear hunting and I shot myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you on the ladder injury accident what sort of injury did you sustain?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I shot myself in the left foot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When the ladder slipped out from under you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The injury there was to the right knee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So, that would have taken you back to sometime in 1962, is that right? You say you were out for 9 months or a year?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Prior to this accident, how long had you actually worked for, was it Bates and Co.?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Bates Plywood. Let’s see, I had been with Bates, I went to work for them March 8, 1960.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, immediately before that where were you employed?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was employed with Buckmaster’s Jewelers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you employed there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Buckmaster, I believe it was for 1 year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have been early 1959 that you went to Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I went to work for him, I believe it was in March of 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe if we can proceed going backward like this we can reconstruct this a little better. What did you do immediately before you went to work for Buckmaster?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was driving a taxicab in Muncie, Ind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you done that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I worked for them for about 6 months. It was the Checker Cab Co. of Muncie, Ind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave your employment as a taxi driver and go directly to Oregon or was there a period of unemployment?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I went directly to Oregon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Buckmaster, had you had some connection?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had a sister living in Glendale and she had said something to Bob Buckmaster that her brother was a jeweler and I had corresponded on two or three occasions with Bob Buckmaster and he wrote to me and said he would like for me to come to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time you were a taxi driver in Muncie, what did you do?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in business in Jacksonville, Fla., for approximately--I was in business for myself but there again I don’t remember--it seems like it was only 1 year because I only had books for 1 year I believe it was or possibly 2, but I think I only had the income tax record for the business there for 1 year, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s try to make some computations here then. You went to Oregon in about March of 1959.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For the 6 months previous to that you were in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, 6 to 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would take you back to the summer perhaps of 1958.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the year before that was it a year or 2 years?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was either a year or 2 years, I can’t remember, that is when I was in business for myself in Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least back until the summer of 1957?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Jacksonville, and in business for yourself. Now, how long had you been in Jacksonville before you----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I can tell you. I was with Underwood Jewelers for 2 years previous to when I quit and went into business for myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, that would take you back to mid-1955.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Duvall Jewelers previous to Underwood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That takes you back to mid-1953.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Then I went directly from Muncie, Ind., to Duvall Jewelers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way we can establish more clearly that it was 1 year or 2 years that you were self-employed in Jacksonville?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Yes. Now, I started in my own business in Jacksonville, Fla., in October, this I remember, after I immediately left Underwood. I had two Christmases there, so it would have been roughly a year and 7 months because we left Jacksonville, Fla. after I closed my business up, we left Jacksonville, Fla., then and came to Muncie on our way to Grants Pass and then when my mother-in-law passed away why we stayed over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So we might add another 7 months and this would mean that you left Muncie in early 1953 or late 1952?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe we will find it was around 1952 when I went there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The reason why I can come to this conclusion, I was called back into the service and I was in Green Cove Springs, Fla., that was in 1950 and 1951, and then I was discharged, I went back to Muncie, I went back to work for Borg-Warner Corp., for a year and I stayed there approximately I believe about 8 to 9 months before we left for Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What branch of the service were you in?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Navy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been in a Reserve unit, you said you were called back in.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So were you in military service during the Second World War?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was from June of 1944 until June of 1946, 2 years, 2 years and 1 week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. June of 1946 you got out?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you a high school graduate?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have taken some work after you actually left school?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I took the equivalance test. After I was injured I didn’t know what I was going to do and I was going to go back to college and I had to take the equivalence test and pass that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which injury are you now talking about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was after the last injury, I went and shot myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunting. How far did you go with your formal education before you first left school?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I quit school when I was in the 10th grade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would that have been?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1941.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would have graduated in 1944. I left school when I was in the 10th grade in order to go to work for Sam Jaffe. It would have been in 1942.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1942. How old were you in 1942?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was 16.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin working for Mr. Jaffe in 1942?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was in the summertime but I could not put the exact date on it or the exact month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So I take it you completed your term of school in June of 1942 and then during the summer you started to work for Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you began work for him did you work for him on a full-time basis?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your job?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was a jeweler apprentice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that involve?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was learning to repair jewelry and diamond setting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of a union in connection with that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of formal apprenticeship training program?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn’t at that time. Now, I stayed with Mr. Jaffe until 1944 when I went into the service, and then when I was discharged in 1946 I came back, I went back to Mr. Jaffe, went back to work for him. I was there, I think a period of just a few months and then he got set up on this here training program by the Government for training veterans, and I believe I was with him for about 2 years after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you, in 1942, happen to get this job with Mr. Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a friend of mine, a Jimmie Tricker who was working for him, and Jimmie’s eyes were very bad, he couldn’t see to do the work, and so Sam had asked him if he knew of another young boy that would be interested in learning this work. So Jimmie told him about me and I went to him, and it worked out and I stayed with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jimmie Tricker the same age as you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was the same age as I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had he worked for Mr. Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jimmie had only been there about a week or so until he found out that he couldn’t see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1942 to 1944, did Mr. Jaffe have any other employees beside you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So from 1942 to 1944 you were the only employee of Sam Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was his jewelry store located?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The jewelry store or his jewelry shop, he didn’t have a store, he had a jewelry shop at that time, was located on Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson and that is as close as I can come to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How large a building was it in?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was in a two-, three-story building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What floor was his shop on?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a walk-in trade or how did he operate?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don’t believe--I think he had a few friends that would come up, but his friend’s was a business similar to mine, it was strictly wholesale, doing jewelry work for the other jewelry stores.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what business was located directly beneath him.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Lawson’s Jewelers were right below us, Lawson’s Jewelers, and then an entrance to the building and then there was an apparel shop on the other side but I am not sure of the name of that. It could have been, I believe it was, Roth. Roth clothing store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you don’t remember whether this was a two- or three-story building?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was a three-story building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything above the shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, there was an union hall above it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What union was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. There was too many unions around there. There was an automotive workers union and the plumbers union and every kind of union you can think of. But I remember it was a union hall because they used to rent it out and they used to have dances up there. I think it was around every Saturday night they would have a dance there and they had their meetings up there and then anybody who wanted to have meetings could rent the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any other activity up there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Other than just the dances and the meetings and then this is the place where all the friends of Sam Jaffe and which were, to my honest opinion were, all Communists used to meet up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did they have any gambling up there in that union hall?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had heard but I couldn’t say that there definitely was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that they had dancing up there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I was working on Saturday night many times, we stayed open until 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Sam Jaffe’s friends used to meet up there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this was, for the 2 years I had worked with Sam Jaffe, Morton and Herb Pazol, and Phil Jasser, Morton Standt, oh, golly, there were so many of them it is hard to remember--several of the employees from the other jewelery stores, Lawson Jaffe, of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lawson Jaffe run Lawson’s jewelery store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. He was the nephew to Sam Jaffe.

Then there was Roth, I don’t remember his first name. Then there was a Pritcher, Max Pritcher, Max and Harry Pritcher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They were son-in-laws to Sam. One of them was a son-in-law to Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Sam Jaffe at this time, would you say?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly Sam was around 55, 60.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that Sam Jaffe met with his friends up in this union hall?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, all of these people were connected with businesses around Muncie, and they used to come up there at various times to talk with Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the second floor, to Sam’s jewelry store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second floor shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Our shop was here and, of course, we had an office over here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We can’t see the motions you are making with your hands, this man has a machine.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The office adjacent to the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do this. I will give you a piece of paper and a pencil and I want you first to draw us a diagram and we can perhaps talk from the diagram.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. All right.

Our shop is here, and then Mr. Jaffe’s office was here next to it. And there was a doorway here and our benches were here. The entrance into the shop was here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Would you want to write “Jaffe’s office.” Would you want to indicate somewhere where the street is?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This street was here. This was Walnut Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don’t you write “Walnut Street” on there.

Now, would you indicate where you, write in there, where you, mentioned the benches were.

If I can state for the record in words, what you have drawn there; you have indicated that there are two rooms to the shop, each room facing on Walnut Street.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The larger room, which is open to the public, has benches in it and the benches run along the entire side of the room which faces Walnut Street.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK.

Let me mark that for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.

(The diagram referred to was marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You started to draw this exhibit I think in connection with explaining how people would come into the shop and talk to him.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, the stairway from Walnut Street ran directly below us. It came out about here and they would come around this way and enter the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the stairway ran up behind the shop, and they would really enter from the back side of the shop, that is?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, because this was on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. There was a hallway, I take it, on the back side of the shop.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And so that the shop was between the hallway and Walnut Street?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say people would come in and visit in the shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, they would come in here. Mr. Jaffe worked at the first bench here and my bench was the second one here and they would usually go into the office but, of course, I could overhear many of the things they said when they was talking in there.

Now, to my honest opinion, I don’t remember whether Mr. Jaffe ever attended any of the meetings upstairs, but they used to come up and talk about having these meetings with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about particular individuals. What particular individual do you remember coming in and talking to him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was one of the main ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right now, what did Philip Jasser do for a living?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a clothing store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Philip Jasser in the store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. On the average they--three or four times a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when he talked with Mr. Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was in the shop. Many times they would talk right there in the shop also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversations they had?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. None in particular. I was always taught, I mean, not to interfere with the other people’s business but, of course, by overlistening and different things they would be talking about the meeting and who would be there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a meeting did Jasser talk about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. At that time I really didn’t know what kind of meetings they were. I think--I knew they had something to do with Russia at that time. That is all I knew, and with the Communist Party. All of them----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that indicated to you that it had to do with Russia?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because Phil Jasser, Morton and Herb Pazol, Morton Standt, Lawson Jaffe, and there was another man, Shuster, and I can’t remember his first name, all these men at one time or another have talked to me trying to get me to join their party, to join the Communist Party.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who--let me get these names. You say Standt talked to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jasser talked to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the worst one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol had talked to me. They hadn’t said too much but they had talked to me at times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. And Lawson Jaffe; and then Shuster.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Shuster’s first name?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a Shuster’s Clothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, those were the only ones there in Muncie, Ind. Now, there were several of them that used to come from Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before we get to that let’s stay with the people in Muncie.

When was the first time that anyone of these men talked to you about what you called Russia or the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, and Phil Jasser came in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he was telling me how wonderful it would be if everybody made the same amount of money whether they owned the store or whether they worked for it, and I can’t remember all the stuff he used to give me because he would very seldom get very far before Sam would interrupt and make him get out because Sam refused to let him talk to me if he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you get some indication that perhaps Sam didn’t even want to have these political talks going on?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I always had the feeling that he didn’t like it, because now they was more or less down on Sam because of the fact that they used to fly the Russian flag in the synagogue and that was the Jewish temple there, and Sam put up a very strong protest about flying the Russian flag and said if they was going to live in the United States and be U.S. citizens then they should live by the U.S. flag, and because of that it was my understanding, whether it ever happened or not, but I have been told by two or three different ones, I can’t say particularly who they were right now, they were even threatening to throw Sam out of the synagogue because of it.

And I know whenever he came up there or if he ever came in and caught them talking to me about getting on the right side of the fence and joining their party and attending some of these meetings he would immediately jump on him, make him get out and he would lecture to me for 5 or 10 minutes not to pay any attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of other young men in Muncie whom these men approached?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t. Not at that time I didn’t know any of the other young fellows. Most of them were all of the age of Sam. Lawson was, I think, about the youngest and, of course, his sons-in-law were a little older than I. I would say they was in their late twenties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps I should make my question a little more clear. Were there other people your age in Muncie whom, that you know of, your friends or what not?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That these men approached?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known any of these men before you worked for Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would indicate why they should have approached you about this?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no reason that I know of outside of the fact I was working for Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were first approached by these people did you tell anybody that you had been--that they had approached you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn’t really important to me at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you think now that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party. Did you at that time think that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they made no bones about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did they say that would indicate they were talking about the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now Phil Jasser is the one who talked to me the most and he was always talking about getting on the right side of the fence, and I had asked him specifically on several occasions what he meant by the right side of the fence, and he said well, he said, join the Communist Party.

He said, “Join us in this.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they know you were on the wrong side of the fence?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I wouldn’t attend the meetings, I suppose, I never----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time, who was the first person to ever approach you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the first one to ever approach me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This must be a, as you look back, this must be an occasion that you have some recollection of.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; because I didn’t know exactly just how to take it I didn’t want to jeopardize my job with Sam Jaffe and I didn’t want to be rude to the man, and so, therefore, I told him that I would have to think about it, and I just kept putting him off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say on this first occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the first time he talked to me it was about how nice it would be if everybody made the same amount of money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start that conversation with you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know. I was sitting there working and Sam was out, and Phil came in and he was waiting on Sam so he got to talking to me and asked me how I liked the work and I said fine, I loved it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a hardworking fellow?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I tried to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what sort of wages did you get at that, point?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. When I was serving my apprenticeship I was working for $35 a week to start with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a good wage at that time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I can’t say that it was a good wage, but I was learning a good trade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that you had said or done that would indicate that you were unhappy that you weren’t making more money?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about you or anything that you had said which would indicate, have indicated to Mr. Jasser that you might be receptive to the kind of things he was saying to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Nothing that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead and tell us more about this conversation.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he would--there were so many things there, but the main point he was trying to get across to me was this fact of everybody making more money, everybody made the same amount of money regardless of who their employer--their employer didn’t actually make more money than the employees did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did he mention the Communist Party in that conversation?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time; I would say it took approximately a couple or 3 months before he actually come around and told me then that, now my understanding were they were all Russian Jews but he didn’t--I believe he called it the Fifth Party or something like that, and I didn’t even know at that time what he was talking about and then I pointblank asked him why was the Communist Party, why did he consider the Communist Party so much better than our own democracy that we had here, and he said, “Because eventually,” he said, “We are going to rule the entire world.” He said it is bound to come.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say, did he use the word “we” or did he say that they would?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the Communist Party would eventually rule the world.