Chapter XXVIII: Front Matter (28)

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, afterward is a long time. You mean immediately afterward?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately afterward.

Mr. PAPPAS. Let’s see. Yes--I wanted to talk to Henry Wade, wanted to get a personal interview with him. And he did give us one or two statements, and then he wandered out, everybody else was wandering out. And I decided that I would try to get Henry Wade on the telephone directly to my office in New York. I went outside. I saw some other reporters--I didn’t know who they were, but they knew the ropes, I suppose, of the police station, and they were using the phones out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where, specifically, was this?

Mr. PAPPAS. At the reception area, outside of the lineup room. There is a long reception desk, with other desks behind the long reception desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with what is called the records room of the police department?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I suppose--was that the records room--I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am getting to. If you knew what the records room was, that would be my next question.

Mr. PAPPAS. Specifically I didn’t know whether they called it the records room. It looked like a registration area to me. They did have a lot of desks, files, people doing clerical work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know which room is the jail office, don’t you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the room that you are talking about now, was that the jail office?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; this was the area immediately outside of the lineup room. The jail office is a much smaller area, and it is enclosed. And this was a wider, broader room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephones were located in that particular room that you are talking about?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; they were on a counter-like affair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to go into the room to use the telephones, or could you stand in the hallway next to the counter?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, as I recall it, when you stepped out of the lineup room, you were in the other room. And the phones were right there on the counter. In other words, the thing that marked off the room, or the beginning of the room, apparently, was the counter. And on the counter were the telephones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what you did then, at that point. You picked up a telephone, or what happened?

Mr. PAPPAS. Henry Wade was on the phone to other radio stations, I imagine, or to other newsrooms, because he was being asked a question, and he was answering into a telephone. This is a technique that we use. I felt that it would be more expeditious for me to do it that way. And I picked up a phone, after Henry Wade had gotten toward the end of his interview--I picked up a phone and dialed New York, and I asked him, “Could you do this interview with me?” and he said, “Yes, but I have another phone call over there.” And he pointed across the room. Somebody had said, “Come over here.” I don’t know whether he recognized him or what. But he left my telephone, and I don’t know whether I hung up, or whether I had them wait in New York for me to get him back. But at any rate, this disturbed me, because it was long distance, and I had promised them this interview, and I wasn’t coming through with it immediately, and this is always frustrating.

It was at this point that I ran into Ruby--the first time that I recall. He came up to me as I was waiting for Wade and he said, “Where are you from?” I said, “New York.” He said, “Are you a reporter?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “How long are you going to be in town?” And I said, “I will be here as long as it takes to do this story.” And he reached into his pocket, and he pulled out a card. It said the Carousel Club on it. And I was amazed. I didn’t know who he was or what he was. My immediate impression of him was that he was a detective. He was well dressed, nattily dressed, I imagine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his clothing?

Mr. PAPPAS. It was a dark suit. Whether it was gray or not, I don’t know. But he had on a gray hat, fedora. And I looked at the card. I couldn’t imagine what was happening.

It said, “Jack Ruby, your host,” on it. I said, “Are you Jack Ruby?” He said, “Yes; come on over to the club if you get a chance--you can have some drinks”--or something like that--“there are girls there.” And then he disappeared. Naturally I had other things on my mind at the time. I must have put the card in my pocket. And----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Can you describe his mood? Was it straightforward, was it somber, businesslike, was it exhilarated?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I would not call it exhilarated. I would say that he was in a very animated mood. He moved quickly, and he spoke quickly. Of course, I cannot tell you what his mood is, because I don’t know the man. Maybe this is the way he is naturally. Maybe when he is in a mood he is somber. I don’t know. But to me he appeared very worked up by the happenings, by the activity, by the people, by the reporters, by the cameras, by the flashguns, and everything else. He seemed, as I said before, very animated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have the card that he gave you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; I don’t have it personally. I have it--someone has it. It is a magazine editor who is keeping it. He wanted to see it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after Jack left you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I still had to get Henry Wade. He was on the telephone, on this long interview. I was trying to get him over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you calling to Wade, or making any indication?

Mr. PAPPAS. He knew I wanted him on the phone.

Then it was awhile, and he had some other people to talk to. Then I think he had another phone call. Anyway, he was occupied, and Ruby came back. He darted past me again. I was still in this frustrated--this look on my face. He said, “What’s the matter?” I said, “I am trying to get Henry Wade over to the telephone.” He said, “Do you want me to get him?” I said, “Well, if you can, certainly, I can use any help I can get. I don’t know the area.” At least these are the thoughts going through my mind. I don’t know whether I said that to him or not. But I said, “Yes, I would like to have him over here.” And he went around the desk, over to Henry Wade on the telephone. I don’t know what they said to each other, but Ruby pointed over to me, and Henry looked up, and then Ruby came back and he just left. I don’t know whether he said it will be okay, or what, but he just darted out again, out of the enclosure. And in a short while, Henry Wade finished up his telephone conversation and came over to my phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby didn’t actually accompany Wade over, then?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t think he waited.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it that you don’t have any recollection of it, or do you feel certain----

Mr. PAPPAS. I am sure Henry Wade came over by himself, because Henry was on the phone for several minutes after Ruby spoke to him. I imagine he was wrapping up his conversation before coming over to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened when Wade came over?

Mr. PAPPAS. I did the interview with him to New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that interview?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think so, because this was not done on my tape recorder, as I said. I think we have a copy of a portion of it, because when it did get up to New York--I don’t know really whether it was used on the air or not. I imagine it was. And when we do use them, we edit them down. So I believe we have all of our tapes from last year. And if it was used, we have it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the telephone number that you called in New York?

Mr. PAPPAS. MO 1-3621.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a collect call?

Mr. PAPPAS. It was--I could not tell you, I am not sure. I think it had to be, because I could not call directly from the phone. I would say I assume it was collect. I cannot recall whether I called collect or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a credit card?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; we reverse the charges usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished the interview with Wade?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, then he disappeared and I went out back into the lineup room where the Justice of the Peace Johnston, was holding an interview with other reporters, and he was reading the initial charge, I believe, against Oswald, to us. And I did an interview with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby there at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do after that?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, after that I went--I got through with Johnston, and then I went over to a radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. KLIF, yes. I forget what time this was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--how did you get into KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. I rang the bell downstairs, I believe, knocked on the door. Somebody came down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do when you got in there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I had to prepare a lot of material for the morning. I had a lot of tape to feed to New York. And I worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see Jack Ruby while you were at KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember having anything to eat at KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get that from?

Mr. PAPPAS. From one of the diskjockeys there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you have?

Mr. PAPPAS. I had sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Corned beef sandwiches?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t know. I am not sure. I don’t know what type they were. Might have been corned beef.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people we have talked to at KLIF recall that you were present when Ruby was there. Do you have any recollection of that?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; this is absolutely incorrect.

Now, the sandwiches were there when I arrived. I had not eaten. And I was very happy to have a sandwich. It was quite good, also. And I had a bottle of pop, and I said this is terrific, where did you get all this? And the person I spoke to said, “Oh, some guy brought them up.” And I said, “Great.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge at the time you were there, would you have been able to have seen Ruby in the place if he were there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I am sure if he was--if he was in the same area I was, certainly. I don’t know whether he was or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would depend on how many rooms the radio station has. Were you in the newsroom?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t believe they have a newsroom as such. They have an area off of a control room which has some teletypes in it. I guess if that is their newsroom--yes; I was in the newsroom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in any of the broadcast studios? Were you in any of those?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; you see, the area that I was describing serves, from what I could tell, as a newsroom, as a broadcasting area, and as a control area, also, control room, because the person on the air was speaking into a microphone, broadcasting and doing his own control work while the teletypes were going, I believe, right in the same room, with all of us. I was having a sandwich while he was broadcasting, and I was doing my own work, as I recall. Wait a minute now. No; there is another studio next to it--that is right. At any rate, there is a control area and a studio, and I think the one that I was in that Friday night served as a broadcast studio, also. But there is another studio right next door to it, and you can see into it. There is a big glass panel there and everything; else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any way of fixing the time that you were at KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; it was early in the morning. I am not quite sure when. Maybe 2:30. I don’t know. It was well into the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as 3 o’clock in the morning?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been any earlier than 2 o’clock in the morning?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is difficult for me to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the people whom you met there?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t recall the names offhand. I have a mental image of one person, but I cannot recall his name immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a fellow by the name of Russ Knight, called The Weird Beard?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he at the studio when you were there that night?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people at the studio?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; there was one other person. He is the person I have a mental picture of, but I cannot think of his name right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Glenn Duncan?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the man?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Saturday, what time did you arrive at the police department?

Mr. PAPPAS. I am afraid that Saturday--I went directly from the station to the police station. I didn’t get any sleep at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. On, I remained there until Saturday night at approximately 8:45 or so, 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to fix at all where you would have been between 3, Saturday afternoon, and 6 o’clock Saturday evening--that is to say, can you tell us if you were up on the third floor during that period?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I was there most of the day. I am sure I had occasion to be there from 3 to 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you station yourself permanently up on the third floor, or were you throughout the building the day that you were there, on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were throughout the building; yes. I was, I would say, all over the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all at the police department on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed being taken when you were at the police department on Saturday, first of all with respect to the admission of newspaper people onto the third floor?

Mr. PAPPAS. They were following the same procedure, posting a man, two men, sometimes three men, at the elevator doors, and checking, I suppose the credentials of the people who came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your credentials checked on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. I wear my police badge in a situation like that, or the New York City press card, which is issued by the police department, so that it was visible all the time. They had checked it. So I suppose they didn’t want to check it again, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lee Oswald moved at any time through the third floor hallway when you were there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of protection was provided for Oswald that you recall in moving him?

Mr. PAPPAS. He was given a police escort. Whenever they were going to move him, they would have all of the reporters clear a way through the corridor. We were all jammed in, and they cleared a path through the mass of bodies. And then Oswald would be taken out by detectives and uniformed police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close could you get to Oswald as he was being moved?

Mr. PAPPAS. Right next to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you leave the police department on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, roughly 9, 9:15 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left, had you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald the next day?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard?

Mr. PAPPAS. We had heard just before we were sent home, that he was--that he was not going to be moved that night. We heard that from Chief Curry. He said, and I remember his quote--he said, “We plan to move this man not tonight.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about what time he would be moved the next day that you recall?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was sort of a question and answer thing. The questioning went like this. After he said--we were all wondering whether we were going to have to spend the entire night at the station. And--you know, waiting for Oswald’s departure. And we were quite relieved when Mr. Curry came out and he said that they did not plan to move him that night--at least I did--I wanted to get some sleep. I hadn’t slept in a couple of days. And the reporters started to question him. And the questioning went like this:

“When will you move him?”

“Well, if you boys would be here by 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, that will be early enough.”

And someone yelled, “Do you plan to move him at 10 o’clock?”

And the answer was something to this effect--“Well, if you boys get here by 10 o’clock”--or “It won’t be any later than 10 o’clock.”

And we all got the pretty good impression that is when they were going to move him.

He didn’t come out and say, “We will move him tomorrow at 10 o’clock.”

But we all got the distinct impression that is when it was going to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive back at the police department on Sunday morning?

Mr. PAPPAS. At 9:15, 9:20.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go at that point?

Mr. PAPPAS. Went to Chief Curry’s office. Third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go inside the office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes--into the chief’s complex of offices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened when you got in there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, when I got there he was talking to some reporters, having another press conference, about Oswald’s activities overnight, what he had for breakfast, and things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before Oswald was actually brought down in the basement, did you receive any indication, either by what you observed or by what someone told you, or by what you overheard, with respect to the manner in which he was going to be moved, or the route by which he was to be moved, or the time or circumstances under which he would be moved?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told that he was going to be moved in an armored car, or an armored truck. And someone at the window said, “There is an armored truck downstairs.” And there was one. I just got a glimpse of it. I don’t know whether he was trying to back into the garage at the time or not. I can’t recall.

And we asked him why the armored truck. And he said, “Well, our police cars are not bullet proof.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Curry said that?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the armored truck arrived, did you have any indication that the armored truck might be on its way to the police station?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I didn’t see the armored truck arrive. Somebody just said there is an armored truck.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean before you saw the armored truck the first time--did you have any idea that the armored truck was going to be used at all before you saw it down there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told by Curry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before you actually saw the truck?

Mr. PAPPAS. Almost immediately before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do then, when you saw the armored truck?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I went back to talking to Curry. He was waiting around up there. People were asking him questions. He was passing the time of day, and we were getting information.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later is it you estimate that Oswald was finally moved out of the homicide office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Let’s see. Later than what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, than this particular episode you have just been describing, talking with Curry, and having seen the armored car.

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, Curry left. A lot of other reporters left. It was about 11 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am probably not making myself clear. How much time elapsed between the time that you finished talking with Curry, after having seen the armored car, and the time that Oswald was actually moved?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, I would say 20 minutes, 25 minutes. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Oswald was taken out of the homicide office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when he was brought out of the office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I saw Captain Fritz coming out first, and Oswald was behind him. I walked up to Fritz and I asked him a question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your tape recorder with you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any tapes of what took place up there in the hallway at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they be available for us to listen to?

Mr. PAPPAS. You have them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have that particular tape?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is one of the tapes you had given to the FBI?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you right now then if you recall what--generally what were the contents of these various tapes which you gave the FBI?

Mr. PAPPAS. I gave them only one tape--the tape in the hallway, and the actual shooting of Oswald by Ruby. It was all on one reel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Oswald got past you up there on the third floor, what did you do?

Mr. PAPPAS. I went down to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ran down the stairs?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long before Oswald emerged from the jail office was it that you arrived down there in the basement?

Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see happen as Oswald came out?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oswald came out. There were two detectives on either side of him. Captain Fritz was leading the way. There were other detectives behind him. Detectives behind, both walls from the exit to the jail, the basement walls. Oswald came right past me, and I did as many of us did throughout those 2 days, I shouted a question at him. And then I noticed a black blur, and I noticed a bang--I heard a bang, rather, I recall a flash, and then pandemonium.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack Ruby say anything as he moved toward Oswald?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think if he had said something, that you would have heard it?

Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on how loudly he said it. If he whispered it, certainly I could not hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But if he had spoken in a normal voice?

Mr. PAPPAS. If he had spoken in a normal voice--that would be difficult for me to tell. I could not say if he spoke in a normal voice. If he shouted something at him, I would say that I could have heard it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you able to hear Oswald’s groan or response as he was hit?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the volume of that response compare to somebody speaking in a normal voice? Was it an extremely loud sound that he made, or don’t you have any recollection?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, an extremely loud sound--it is hard for me to estimate what is loud and what is not. It is very vague.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, describe it in your own words.

Mr. PAPPAS. It was like an expulsion of air, a gasp. It was audible from where I was. I heard him. If I said it was loud, I don’t know whether it would mean anything to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can make a statement like that and then maybe you can----

Mr. PAPPAS. It didn’t throw my head back or anything like that. I have been blasted by loud sounds. But this was an audible sound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other people speaking and shouting at the time?

Mr. PAPPAS. At the time of what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this gasp came out?

Mr. PAPPAS. No. There were people--I imagine there was a slight din. But I noticed distinctly that the shot went off, and there was a cold moment of silence, and then the gasp. It was a very quick split-second thing. But there were these two moans that I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I have not listened to the tape yet and that might answer many of the questions.

Mr. PAPPAS. I think that would help a lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order--of course, the tape is a result of a microphone, which may or may not pick up everything that the human ear picks up. Maybe we can work into this by my asking you, was this a directional mike or to what extent did the microphone itself that you were using limit the ability of the recording apparatus to pick up the kinds of sounds that the human ear would have heard?

Mr. PAPPAS. It didn’t limit it at all--from my knowledge of the instrument. It is nondirectional microphone. Its field travels in a slightly elliptical fashion. But it encompasses a greater area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here a number of pictures which I think you provided to the FBI.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do is to have you look at them. But I want to mark them first. And I would like to get some idea of what distances are really involved in these pictures. I am going to mark a single large photograph which shows a picture of Jack Ruby approaching Lee Oswald, and Oswald in this picture is not looking at Ruby--I am going to mark this Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964. Exhibit No. 1.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to look at it with me. Now, you are in this photograph, and I take it you are the person who someone has circled in ink.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far are you actually standing from Jack Ruby as you recall in that picture?

Mr. PAPPAS. From Ruby, I don’t know, because he was just a blur over to my left. I was approximately 5 feet--5 or 6 feet from Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I am going to mark the next picture in the same manner--Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a series of six photographs on one photographic sheet. It is a sequence of shots showing Lee Oswald approaching, and in each of the first four pictures, starting at the top, you appear, and your head is circled. In the first picture in the middle row, you can see you holding out a microphone. Do you have any recollection, or are you able to give us any identification at that point where the microphone is being held out in this first picture in the second row how far that microphone really was from Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was at this point that I was asking my question, and it was--maybe 4 feet, or 5 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the next picture, and that is the second picture in the second row, shows a figure which is Jack Ruby approaching toward Oswald, and the microphone appears to be between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea in that picture how far the microphone would be from Jack Ruby’s face?

Mr. PAPPAS. From Jack Ruby’s face?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I do not. I did not see Jack Ruby at that point. I could not estimate it, because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how far was the path that Jack Ruby traveled as he would have got directly in front of you--how far would he have been from you at that point? Do you have some recollection of his path?

Mr. PAPPAS. It was just a quick streak. I don’t want to mislead you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to. I don’t want to lead you into saying something which you cannot be accurate about.

Mr. PAPPAS. No. I was concentrating on Oswald. He was the person that we had to speak to. And--you notice I am watching Oswald throughout. Here is Ruby, apparently going right for him. And I suppose when he got up around forward of me, I saw this flash. And I really cannot judge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having to pull the microphone back as this flash went past you?

Mr. PAPPAS. No. I realized at a certain point that Oswald was not going to answer my question, and I still held it out. It was still out here. And--it was still projected forward at that point, still hoping that he might turn around and say something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again let me ask you--what is your best estimate of how far Oswald was from you, as you look at the second picture in the second row?

Mr. PAPPAS. The best estimate is 6 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way that you can describe at a distance of, say, 4 to 8 feet, the pickup ability of your microphone?

Mr. PAPPAS. Do you mean if the subject is 4 feet from my microphone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. Then what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then in terms of the volume of the sound, what ability does your microphone have to pick up sound at that point?

Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on the volume of the sound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can it pick up conversation in a normal tone of voice at 4 feet?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about at 8 feet?

Mr. PAPPAS. At 8 feet it would. It would pick up normal conversation. Naturally the volume of it would be less, but it would be audible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way you can think of that we can describe the ability of this microphone at these two distances, 4 and 8 feet, to pick up sounds which are of less volume than a normal speaking voice?

Mr. PAPPAS. I am not sure whether I understand your question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, trying to find out--you said that it would not pick up a whisper at one point. Now, somewhere between a whisper and normal speaking voice there are other conversational tones or ranges of loudness that you might be able to describe in your own words and from your own experience, that this microphone might pick up at those distances.

Mr. PAPPAS. I have had no experience with any volume of voice between a whisper and a normal speaking voice. I could not tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark a document for the purpose of identification as Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this document consists of two pages, numbered consecutively at the bottom 475 and 476. And it is a copy of an interview report prepared by two special agents of the FBI, Lower and Hester, as a result of speaking with you in New York City on July 2, 1964. I would like to ask you to look at this interview report, read it over, and tell us if that accurately reports your conversation with them on that date as best you can recall.

Mr. PAPPAS. I think it does; yes, basically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you, then, if you would sign the interview report on the first page and initial the second page.

Mr. PAPPAS. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it on the first page at a conspicuous spot at the top.

Mr. PAPPAS. This is an affidavit?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; this is just an interview report.

Mr. PAPPAS. Do I get a copy of this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can get a copy of the deposition that is being taken here. And we can then----

Mr. PAPPAS. Can I have this read?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to----

Mr. PAPPAS. No; it is all right.

All right. Where shall I sign it--right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top; yes, and just initial the next page.

Now, let me hand you also what I have marked as Icarus M. Pappas deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is another interview report prepared by two agents of the FBI, Eugene W. O’Neill, and James J. Rogers. It reports an interview that they had with you in New York City June 30, 1964, and it also consists of two pages. If you would read that, and also tell us if that accurately reflects what you told them at that time.

Mr. PAPPAS. This does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign that, then, on the first page, and initial the second? I might ask you one final question, which is a very general question. In your experience, reporting this event, the events of November 22, 23, and 24, do you feel that there were any--that any restrictions or precautions could have been taken, either to have provided more orderly distribution of information to the press, or to safeguard Lee Oswald, that in your estimation were not taken?

Mr. PAPPAS. I wonder if you could state that again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me state it as two questions. From the standpoint of a newspaper reporter, do you feel that the local authorities in Dallas could have or should have instituted procedures which would have provided a more orderly flow of news to the press, or more restricted flow than was permitted?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is hard to say for me. I think that we got the news from the police department. That is what I am concerned with. And how I get it, whether it is orderly or not, is really none of my concern. I think if that is the way they do it, holding interviews in a hallway, that is the way I have to get it. I think that if they had set up an auditorium somewhere and came in with reports, this would be orderly. But how productive it would have been, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have----

Mr. PAPPAS. I think ideally, as a reporter, as a newsman, I think ideally if there is an incident, a crash, or a homicide, or something, it would make our job a lot easier if we could have all of the witnesses and all of the interviews that we have to get brought in and placed in front of us in a large auditorium. This would be nice and orderly for us. But, unfortunately, that is not the way our business works.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you think it would have been proper for the police to have refused access--refused you people access to the third floor?

Mr. PAPPAS. As far as a newsman is concerned; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you the second question, on the protection of Lee Oswald. Did you observe any inadequacies in the manner in which Oswald was protected that you would be able to bring to our attention?

Mr. PAPPAS. I am not a police officer. I don’t know what is adequate and what is not. I could not tell you. I am not a law officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. I appreciate that. Do you have any other observations that you would want to make about your experiences in Dallas on those 3 days?

Mr. PAPPAS. Just that it was one of the saddest assignments that I have had to cover ever, and that it was professionally a challenge. That is all I could say generally about It.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any information that you think would be of significance for us?

Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no. I have just told the story so many times. I have just made every statement that I think could be made by me. That is what I know at this point. Unless you can think of something else specifically that you are puzzled about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t anything in mind. I think we have covered it pretty well as far as we are concerned. One final question, then. You and I have not had any off-the-record conversations, or prior conversations before we began taking your deposition, have we?

Mr. PAPPAS. Only when you wanted to finish your coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When I saw you out in the hallway and asked you to wait a few minutes?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But we did not discuss anything pertaining to your testimony at that point?

Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any further questions. I want to thank you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us. The tape recording and the photographs which you have provided in the past have been of considerable use to us.

Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you for having me here, and I hope I have been of some help in getting to the bottom of all of this.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. McCULLOUGH

The testimony of John G. McCullough was taken at 11 a.m., on July 29, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel, and Stuart Pollak, staff member, of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff to the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our normal practice before deposing a witness to explain a little bit about what the Commission is about. I think you will find most of what I have to say you are well aware of.

As you probably know, the Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts, the Commission was directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to President Johnson, to find out all the facts it is able to determine.

We have asked you to come here today in particular because you were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November, and because you did have occasion to see Jack Ruby on one of those days.

I might also indicate that under the rules and regulations that have been established by the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition.

Also under these rules, you are entitled to a 3-day notice in writing before you appear here. We did send you a letter, I believe. I don’t know when you received it.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I received the letter 3 days ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I might note for the record at this point Mr. Stuart Pollak has just walked in. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. None at all. I think I am familiar with the purpose of the Commission, and the reason for my being here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. John G. McCullough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. 6345 Woodbine Avenue, Philadelphia, Pa.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By whom are you employed?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The Philadelphia Bulletin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you employed by the Bulletin in November of 1963?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I was; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your employment with the Bulletin, did you go to Dallas after President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went to Dallas within an hour after President Kennedy was shot, and arrived in Dallas by plane about 7 p.m., Dallas time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas? Where did you go first?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Do you want me to just continue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went immediately to the Dallas Municipal Building, and to the police headquarters. I am uncertain now of exactly what floor this was on. I stayed at the police headquarters floor of the building for 6 or 7 hours, since this was the scene of the operations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on that floor continuously during that period, or were there times when you were off?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There were times when I was off the floor, to use the telephone, or to consult with other members of the Bulletin staff who were also on assignment in Dallas. But most of the time I was on the floor and in a narrow corridor outside the room in which principals in the assassination of the President and the subsequent events were being questioned by Dallas police officials. And I believe by members of the Federal agencies.

I was not alone. There were at least 50 other reporters along this narrow corridor. It was around midnight, to the best of my recollection, when they brought a man who police told us was Lee Harvey Oswald into an interrogation room. Trying to get a look at the physical setup inside this room. I stood briefly on a metal ashtray that was on the corridor. And coming down from this metal ashtray, I hit with my right elbow a man who was standing beside me. I apologized for bumping into the man and expressed the hope that I had not struck his notes, assuming he was another reporter. He explained to me that he was not a reporter, that he was a businessman in Dallas, and I noted then that he was carrying a box. I would guess it was about 8 inches to a foot square. And the reason I remember it is on one side, in white lettering, on a blue background, was the word “Alpacuna.” It struck me as odd, that a reporter would be carrying a box. And then, of course, when he explained he was a businessman I took a good look at him, because I think reporters get annoyed--because there were enough of us in the corridor without outsiders being there. I mentioned this to another member of the Bulletin staff later, and then discovered after the shooting of Oswald, the man I had bumped into that night was Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you some questions about this. You mentioned that you were trying to look into an interrogation room.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this meeting with the man you think was Ruby, did it occur on the third floor of the police department?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I am not certain--on whatever floor the police department offices are located. There is a whole string of them. There is a homicide squad, robbery, theft units. I believe it was on the third floor. It was not the upper floors. There were floors above. I am fairly certain it was the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was on the floor that the detective bureaus were on?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is correct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what particular detective bureau or interrogation room were you looking into at the time?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There, again, I have to go on the basis of recollection, but I believe it was the homicide squad. The officers immediately involved with the investigation had been moving in and out of that particular door for hours, bringing in, for instance, a bus driver, a taxicab driver--at least from the clothing they wore. At one point Oswald’s mother, at another point his wife were in and out of this room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Lee Oswald that you were trying to get a look at?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Actually, I knew I could not see him. I just was wondering whether it was one large room or a maze of partitioned offices, so I could describe it in the story I had planned to write.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I wanted to ask you is was the thing that prompted your getting up on this ashtray the fact that Lee Oswald had been taken into that room?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is correct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall a press conference that Henry Wade held down in the basement some time that evening?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this event which you are now describing, in which you climbed up on the ashtray--did that occur before or after the press conference?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The event that I described, stepping up on the ashtray momentarily, happened several hours prior to the press conference held by District Attorney Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you arrive at the conclusion that it was several hours?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, there, again, I have to go on recollection. But there was this much time ensued. In other words, after meeting the man that I believed to be Ruby, I stayed for a long period--I would estimate 2 hours, before the press conference was held.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Lee Oswald was brought down into that interrogation room again between the time you saw the man you think is Ruby, and the time that Henry Wade held his press conference in the basement?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. He was brought out of the interrogation room. I don’t recall that he was brought back into it before the press conference was held.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you up on the third floor at the time that--just shortly before the press conference was held?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall, were you there when Henry Wade and, I think, Captain Fritz, and perhaps Chief Curry, walked out of the homicide room, just before everybody went down into the basement? Do you recall that?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I do. I believe that I was in an opening, or at the main corridor, at the bay near the elevators, when the three officers you mentioned, the three officials you mentioned, walked along and said there would be a press conference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that at that time, or just before Chief Curry and Fritz and Wade came out, that Lee Oswald had been in the homicide office?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. In other words, Oswald had been in the homicide office before I again saw those three officials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is whether you recall that Fritz and Curry came out of that homicide office just after something had taken place in there with Oswald.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; this I do not recall--whether there was any immediacy involved there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this question, then: Are you clear in your mind that the occasion on which you saw Ruby was a substantial period of time before the occasion when Fritz and Curry came out?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. However, I might add that certainly Fritz, and I believe to a lesser extent Curry were in and out of that room many times. I mean it was not just one movement into the room, and then a long period of time, and a final movement out by those two officers. They were moving in and out at different times during the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe we can work at the time that you saw the man you think is Ruby from the other end. That is, focusing on your activities shortly after you arrived at the police station. You say you arrived in Dallas about 7, and you went directly to the police station. So I assume that you got there somewhere around 7:30. Did you check into a hotel first?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; we checked into a hotel immediately across the street from the police station, municipal building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up there in the police department, did anything occur between the time you arrived and the time you saw the man that you think was Ruby that is significant in your mind that we might use to pinpoint time here?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; except that there was, again, a period of time ensuing between my arrival at the police headquarters and my seeing Ruby, and that would have been occupied on my part by trying to talk to the police officials and trying to get, I believe, to see Wade and interviewing just everyone I could get ahold of who knew anything at all about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw the man you believed was Ruby, did he indicate to you what kind of business he was in?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; he didn’t say what kind of business. This is what made the box stay in my mind. I assumed he was a shirt merchant or something, or that it was a sweater. And there, again, the reason for my remembering him was a bit of annoyance on my part that there was outsiders in that row, when it was terribly crowded.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this look like the kind of box one would carry clothes or shirts or sweaters in?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Only because I in my own mind related the word Alpacuna to some sort of textile trade name. I had never seen the name before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what Alpacuna is. Have you subsequently learned?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; and the man at the time was wearing, I believe it is called, a porkpie hat, and he had a topcoat. This, I remembered, because most of the reporters were not wearing topcoats, and certainly were not wearing hats.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a topcoat did he have on?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. It was a dark blue topcoat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you rubbed elbows with this man, what was his response in the sense of--was it a polite gentlemanly response?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. It was a smile. And the explanation, as I said, that he was not a newspaperman, and that he was a businessman. In other words, he indicated there was no need to apologize, that I had not struck his notes or made him scribble. And he, as everyone along there, was starting into this door, waiting to see what would happen next.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not see him at the press conference at which Oswald appeared. However, the fact that he was there and wearing the same clothing was told me later by a police judge who was present at that press conference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Justice of the Peace David Johnston?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. I went to his office the following day in another part of--actually in a suburb of Dallas, to follow up the story. And--I am sorry, it was not the following day. It must have been Monday, when it was then clear that the man who shot Oswald was Ruby. And I mentioned to Johnston that I had bumped into this man. And the police judge said, that he, too, had seen him at the press conference, and that Ruby had approached him and handed him a card, a gray card, advertising the club that he operated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a clear recollection that Johnston said that Ruby was wearing an overcoat?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This I don’t--I have no clear recollection, but I did mention the clothing, the hat, and Johnston said that this was the same--the hat I did mention.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. But I don’t remember whether or not I mentioned the topcoat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see what sort of clothes the man you believe was Ruby had on under the topcoat?