Chapter XXIV: Front Matter (24)

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I am quite sure that she was there on the last time that I seen him. She would have had to be there--I am sure she was--because this was after I came back from the service and I don’t recall Mary ever taking a vacation or anything. She was always there, maybe once or twice I remember she was off sick but I am quite sure she was there. However, I don’t recall--yes; that is before, I was going to say the card tricks, I don’t recall her being there but then, of course, she wasn’t because he didn’t have the jewelry store then but the last time he was there. I am quite sure Mary would have had to have been there unless she was off sick or something. And now that was the time, like I say, that Jack was rather distant. He came in and he spoke, and that was about the length of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in with anybody at that time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he came in with Seymour and Charlotte at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this before or after you found the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was after I found the list but I can’t remember. It could have been before, too, I just could not say for sure whether it was before or after I found the list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a matter of a couple of days or a couple of weeks before or after?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly it would be right around very nearly the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It could have been after. I just can’t say for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any recollection, I take it, or do you, that Jack Rubenstein, that you saw Jack Rubenstein on the same day that the meeting took place on which you found this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t think that it was on the same day. I do remember when I seen Jack’s name on that list, it struck me as rather odd because, well not actually odd either, I don’t know, I just, even though that Jack came down with Seymour and he knew all the rest of them, I couldn’t place him. He was so much different than what the rest of them were, and I just never connected him with being a member of the party. But now that I think about it, by seeing his name on there it must have been after I turned that list in that I seen him again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after would be your best estimate. I don’t want you to guess, I want you to try to give an informed estimate if you can and if you can’t make any informed estimate then we should indicate it.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I just can’t remember. I just have no idea. Because it was just, like I say, he walked in, he came into the jewelry store that time, he came back through the office, poked his head around the corner and said, “Sam, how are you?” He said, “Hello, Bill,” everybody else started calling me George, but he called me Bill, he said, “Hello, Bill.” Seymour and Charlotte come in and Charlotte come over and spoke to me for a while and Seymour, this Jack Rubenstein, and Sam went into the other office, and Charlotte and I were talking for a little while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you a photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Would you look at that and tell me if you recognize either of the people in that photograph?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He is not familiar but she is. He is a little familiar but I couldn’t place the name on either one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could she be the blond girl that you recall being with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. If she is she is a lot older now than she was then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you that picture was taken in the 1940--in the 1940’s rather?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it couldn’t have been because this other girl was, unless that is a very poor photograph, the other girl was quite slender.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet anyone by the name of Benjamin Kanter?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that is not familiar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you another photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach Deposition, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, and tell me if you recognize anyone in that picture?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now these both are very familiar but I can’t actually place their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He is very familiar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like the man you remember as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like anybody you recall having seen with Seymour and Charlotte Jasson?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. To the best of my knowledge, as I say, I can’t place the name. He is very familiar but it seems to me he has been up there, it is not anybody that lived around Muncie that I remember of. But apparently it must have been one who came from Chicago. He is quite familiar. But she is not too familiar though, and yet it seems like I have seen her sometime, somewhere. But he is quite familiar but I can’t put a name on him. But it is definitely not the one I remember as Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a person by the name of Harold Sugerman?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a man by the name of Irwin Berkstead?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The name is familiar but I can’t associate it. I can’t remember ever meeting the man. It seems the name, like I say, it seems like I heard of it but I couldn’t say where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Sam Jaffe other than in connection with the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think possibly Sam was a little unhappy with me when I quit because I had quit and tried to start a shop of my own. Several of the jewelry stores around had asked me if I wouldn’t start a shop up and do their work for them because they were a little unhappy with Sam because he had started a retail store up and he was a competitor and Sam always seemed like he was always very friendly but it seemed he was not the same Mr. Jaffe I had worked with before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of anything other than taking that list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. And he never accused me of taking that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of taking a bracelet or any jewelry?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you left Mr. Jaffe, did you continue to work in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I went to work in a shop of my own and I was with Herb and Morton Pazol in their store in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked with the Pazols?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was working for myself but I was doing their work free for the rental of the space.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you rent the space in the Pazol store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say approximately about 6 months. It didn’t last very long because Herb and Morton and I just couldn’t get along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of your disagreement?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, they were too demanding. They thought I should do all of their work first and then do the other store’s work. I don’t know, I think Morton and I was the one that more or less couldn’t see eye-to-eye on many things. It seemed like it would take very little for us to get into an argument. One thing, I think Morton and I got into a row was he kept bringing all these here magazines and this was this newspaper that he kept bringing down there and he would leave them in my shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of magazines?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The magazines I can’t remember. I know I used to throw them in the waste basket when they were in there but this one newspaper, the Daily Worker or something to that effect, and I was always complaining about him coming down there and he would always come down and nibble around my bench, moving things around on me, whether he knew anything about a jeweler or not, this is just something we cannot tolerate because we know where everything is laying on our bench, and Morton had a very bad habit of coming down and moving things and then he would always bring these papers down and we was always constantly in it so I just got to the place where I couldn’t get along with him, so I just quit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you move to after that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, when I quit there I went to work for Warner Gear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for them as a jeweler?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that was Borg-Warner, as a machine operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you believe at the time you were working for Borg-Warner Gear or Warner Gear, that Morton Pazol was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I would assume he was. He was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now this newspaper that he was receiving, was that some sort of, did it appear to be a Communist newspaper?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It appeared to me because like I say I used to throw all the magazines in the waste basket and I threw a couple of the papers away and he gave me the devil. And I wondered what was so important, and I read one of them and here again this newspaper, it seemed to me like it was the Daily Worker and it was blasting the U.S. Government for this and for that and was running the President and everything down in the Government.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he was leaving these, he wasn’t leaving it for anybody to pick up? Was he leaving it for the trash collector?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he was leaving it for me because no outside people could come into my shop but I believe he was leaving them for me because he believed I would read them. They never said anything to me, after I came back from the service Herb or Morton never said anything to me about the party in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if I remember correctly, Herb and Morton treated me about as nice as any of them in Muncie, Ind., after I came back from the service. In fact, they were much friendlier than the rest of them were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of them meaning?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The rest of them, the other people, acquaintances that I knew through Sam before I went into the service. Then not only that, after I turned that list in, I think this is one reason why Morton and I couldn’t get along because it seemed like even Herb it didn’t take too much before they would find some reason, any reason, to start complaining, and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you took the list from them, they still rented out space in their store to you in the building?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they did. Like I say that blew over, and then on, I don’t know, I could say that list was forgotten about as far as I was concerned, I mean nothing ever had been said about it for sometime and Herb and Morton continued to be, they were a little cool for a while but then they become very friendly again, in fact, Herb and Morton actually lent me enough money to start this shop. I had some money of my own and they put up the rest of it, and then I can’t recall what happened or how it happened or anything about it. It was something about that list came up again after I had been with Pazols for about 3 or 4 months, it was shortly after I was there, and then, well, I know Lawson came down here, and he told me that he frankly thought I was a no-good bum because I had quit Sam and went to work for competitors and two or three stores had started sending me work that they used to send to Sam, and he said not only that, he says, “I happen to know for a fact you were the one who took that list or those papers at the meeting.” He said “papers” and he didn’t say “list.” Herb and Morton were both there and it was right after that that they become very cool. Herb stayed very social but Morton, like I said, it didn’t take very much for him to get started again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that bingo games were held up in that third floor?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they used to have bingo games up there, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Jaffes attend these bingo games?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Pazols attend?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any knowledge, would you know if they did?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe there would have been something said about it if they had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the bingo games usually start?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I couldn’t say because I never went to any of them myself but I would say somewhere around 7 o’clock, because it seems to me we had worked late a few evenings and I knew when they was going on up there, but after it did get started we usually quit because there was so much noise you couldn’t hear anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the union occupying that third floor after you got back from the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. All I remember they said it was a union hall, but I don’t remember ever a union meeting being up there and I don’t remember what union it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was really just a big hall. It wasn’t offices for any union or anything?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was just actually one great big hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you know, do you recall, that they made some arrests up there on the third floor in connection with some of those bingo games?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; unless it would have been done late at night and I just didn’t hear anything about it. I don’t recall anything being done up there. I recall, it seems to me, to the best of my knowledge, the best I can remember, I think they finally stopped it because the ministerial alliance there was going to complain about it. But whether there was ever any arrest made up there oh not, I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam Jaffe ever tell you that he had an aunt and uncle who were killed by the Communist in Poland?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember anything like that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t remember Sam ever talking about Poland. The only thing he ever talked to me about was the Russian people. He never told me how they lived or anything. I had always got the impression that he could have possibly at one time been an officer in the Russian Army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jaffe was Russian rather than Polish?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was definitely Russian.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Or at least he had always said that he was. He was Russian, like he told me on so many occasions, he was Russian-Jewish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you worked there for Jaffe in 1946 or 1947, were you working for him on a full-time basis?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him on a part-time basis?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I think whenever I worked for Sam it was always on a full-time basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller working for Jaffe on a full-time basis when you worked for him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service and went back to work for Sam it seems to me that somehow we did split up there. I think maybe Bill Miller worked a half day and I worked a half day but if we did it was for a very short period of time. It didn’t last very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, was Miller hired to replace you when you went into the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed he was; yes, he was there when I came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he continue to work there after you left Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he quit long before I did because after I came back from the service and went to work for Sam it was to the best of my knowledge Bill was only there 3 months at the very longest. And possibly not even that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we take a break here?

(Short recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that this fellow that you know as Jack Rubenstein had any nicknames of any sort?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t recall anybody calling him anything except Jack. It was either Jack or Mr. Rubenstein and I have never heard him called as Ruby.

There is one reason after we saw it on TV it said Jack Ruby and I believe it was the day after that they came out and said his name was Jack Rubenstein, and then when--of course, they didn’t have a real, I never got to see a good picture of that, until a day or so after the actual killing, that when it came out his name as Jack Rubenstein, I don’t remember if I heard the radio, TV, or saw in the paper or what, I mentioned it to my wife and I said I knew a Jack Rubenstein one time, she said maybe it is the same man and I said why, I don’t think so. That was in Texas and this was back in Indiana and he was from Chicago. Then when they had a picture of him on TV, it was a pretty good picture, it looked very familiar. Of course, he was a little balder then than what he was when I knew him. When I knew him he had a full head of hair, and like I say he was, he had a good muscular build. He wasn’t slender. He wasn’t what you would say fat but he had a good muscular build on him and a very handsome fellow. He looked like the same one I knew only considerably older.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from what you saw on television, can you be positive that that was the man that you recall?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no, this is what I told the boys there in Medford, Oreg. I cannot swear definitely it is the same man. He looks very similar to the one I knew only like I say somewhat older, and I actually didn’t think anything about it at the time, whether there could be any connection or not until after they said he was from Chicago, Ill., and then is when I said I should call them up, and tell them that I knew a Jack Rubenstein back down there. And that he was, as far as I can remember, and as far as I know, and to the best of my knowledge, he was a member of the Communist Party at that time, or at least he was certainly thickly associated with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Really, but you don’t know anything more about his association other than what you have told us here at this time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I did not. I never got to Chicago to see him or meet him or see his establishment; as he called it. So I don’t know anything about his Chicago activities. The only thing I know is that he did come down there and it seemed like every time they came to Muncie, Ind., they would have one of these meetings, either the day before or the same day, and that there was also quite a bit of talk about this meeting they was having.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were these meetings during the week or weekends?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Usually during the week. Because Sunday I wouldn’t have known anything about it. It could have been on a Sunday--no; it couldn’t have been because they were talking about the meeting that night and it couldn’t have been on a Saturday night, I am sure, because we would work until 9 o’clock unless they was quite late.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you sure that Jack Rubenstein and Charlotte and Seymour came down during the week and not on weekends?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, usually they came on the weekend. It was usually now, as near as I can remember, there was only one time that I remember they came that there was a meeting that night. Usually they came down and spent the weekend, I don’t know where they stayed, whether they stayed with Sam or Lawson or who they stayed with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You only remember one occasion that Seymour and Charlotte came that there was what you called these meetings at night?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour, that was the second time, that was the day that Jack and I went to dinner, Jack Rubenstein, and this was during the week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that there was a meeting that night?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they was talking, there had been several, I don’t know how many, up there during the day, they was talking about the meeting that night. They never referred to what the meeting was or where the meeting was going to be or anything about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that made you remember the meetings on this particular night?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. You mean the second time that I met this----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I take it----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a meeting that apparently had some significance because there were so many people coming in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t the meeting at which you found the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what makes you associate a meeting, a large meeting with Jack Ruby’s or Jack Rubenstein’s visit?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Jack, Seymour, and Charlotte came in that day, and then there was during the day, I don’t know how many others had come in, and some of them like I say were from Ohio, some of them from Chicago, Indianapolis, Indiana, and various parts, all over, and there was so many people, I was--people I had never seen before. I wasn’t introduced to anybody in any way, shape, or form that day but there was certainly a lot of them running in and out. And it seemed like everybody had to come in and say hello to Sam. This is why I say apparently it must have been a large meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know, where the meeting was held?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed that it was held upstairs but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have any information as to where it was held?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you don’t have any information that there was a meeting on this occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of what they was talking about I mean when they came in, they said, why there was one fellow, what made me know the meeting _was that night, they came in just as we was leaving_, Jack Rubenstein and I was leaving, and Jack said something to him about what are you doing here and he said, well he says, I came to the meeting tonight, and this is why I know there was definitely a meeting that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember your eating with him, your being with Jack Rubenstein after so many years, what makes you remember your being with him on this particular occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I don’t know. At the time he asked me to go to lunch with him, I was under the impression that he was something of a--I never really affiliated him with the Communist Party up until at that time, and what he was it was his business; it was none of mine. Like I say, I didn’t think too much about it at that time. But because he asked me to go to lunch with him, I felt pretty important, this is why I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point though did you associate him with the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I more or less, I suppose knew that he was because he was coming in with Seymour and all the rest of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you thought he was?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I thought he was but I wasn’t sure. I had no actual knowledge. I mean they never said he was or he never said in any way anything concerning the Communist Party in any way, shape, or form to me and the only way I do connect him with it is like I say when I picked up the list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Seymour about the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you talk with Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would assume almost every time that he came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with Seymour at least a dozen times?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t have any trouble picking out his picture, would you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don’t believe so. In fact, I think I have already identified his picture twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think Mr. Mullaney had some pictures of him. The only thing about it is I remember him as Charlotte’s husband but I couldn’t put his name on it, that Jasson was the one I couldn’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he showed you a single picture of Seymour were you able to identify that picture alone?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was one of them that I couldn’t identify. He had him in, it seems to me he was in a bathing suit. There was one of them I couldn’t identify and I couldn’t tell you which one it was. Anyway he told me it was the same man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think one reason why it was so easy for me to pick out this picture of Seymour the first time was because Charlotte was also with him. That was the first picture he showed me, Charlotte and Seymour both together, but then he showed me another one of Seymour that I picked out as the same man and then he showed me another one that I couldn’t identify. I think there were three pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 4. I want to hand it to you. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man in any way?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I know this man. I want to say that that is Jack Rubenstein but it doesn’t hardly look like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he is a little too heavy there, but he is muscular, heavy build, and it looks like----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about his features, looks like Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. His hair mainly and his eyes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his nose?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The nose is a little out of shape from the way I remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a nose did Jack Rubenstein have?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was, pardon the expression, an ordinary Jewish nose but it didn’t seem like it was that big.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. And I remember him being as something more handsomer than this fellow here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. More handsome?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, this fellow is too rugged looking and Jack Rubenstein, the one I knew, didn’t look like a rough character in any way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you then what I have marked as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5 and I will ask you--wait, I don’t want to show you that picture, let me show you a better picture. Here is a better one. I want to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach Exhibit No. 6, July 22, 1964.

Look at that picture and tell me if you recognize that man in any way?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now there again this looks like the Jack Rubenstein that I knew then but he is somewhat older here than when I knew him or at least according to the picture but he looks very nearly the same.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him is similar in that picture?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, I don’t know. His whole features are all about the same except he is something older. The hair is still about the same, although his hair is receding somewhat. It seems to me like I remember him he had more hair than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which picture looks more like the Rubenstein that you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think that other one you showed me looks more like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the two pictures?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say this one here putting them both together, this one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Exhibit No. 6 looking more like him than Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This one here looks more like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 6 looks more like him than Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Yes, it does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From looking at these photographs, do you have some doubts in your mind as to whether either or these--well, let’s take the man in Exhibit No. 6, this one here, do you have some doubt in your mind as to whether this man might be a man who is different from the Jack Rubenstein you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I don’t know when this picture was taken but like I say, it does look very familiar or he looks familiar to the same Jack Rubenstein I know only he does look older here than when I remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that, is there any doubt that you might have that these two people might be different people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this man, I can’t see the body of him too well but he looks like he may be just a little heavier--of course, I can’t tell by his height there but he does look like he might be a little heavier than the one I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.

Take a look at that man in that picture and tell me to what extent does he look like the Jack Rubenstein that you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. If this is Jack Rubenstein here he is much older now than when I knew him, much older.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The man here in this picture, does he look substantially different from the man that you remember as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, he does. There is a vague familiarness about his face, but I can’t--I wouldn’t want to say definitely that was the same Jack Rubenstein I know unless he had changed considerably with the years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 7. This is another photograph. Would you look at the man in that picture and tell me to what extent that man resembles the man that you recall as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it would be very hard to say because I never remember the features, like I say, it does look similar to the Jack Rubenstein that I knew only he is much older than then plus the fact he has got a hat on. I never remember seeing him with a hat, but--and somewhat heavier, much heavier, in fact than what he used to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I don’t know the certain way he is holding his mouth or is there some way that reminds me of the same one that I knew. He had a funny way of holding his mouth, kind of a--I don’t know just exactly how you would call it--a prissy look about his mouth, and that there picture there, the last one you showed me he is holding his mouth very nearly the way that he used to hold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, on the various occasions that you saw this man how much time would you say that you spent with him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time he came there when we had lunch, I would say I spent approximately 2 hours with him that day. We was at lunch. I remember this because I was somewhat afraid that Sam was going to give me a good bawling out for being late because we were over at the restaurant for about an hour and a half, and the first time I met him, I would say it could have been 2 hours because we was there in the office, that is when they were showing me all those tricks and things, and then the third time not over 15, 20 seconds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So a total of maybe 4 hours altogether?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you know on the occasions that you had seen Seymour Jasson about how many times would you say that you had been with him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. With Seymour, I would say maybe 6 hours out of the 12 out of the many times he was there. We didn’t spend too much time together. I think one reason why I remember the Jack Rubenstein, why this name sticks with me, and I think maybe I ought to explain this, when I worked for Sam I was young, 16, 17, and I was always given the understanding that I was a young fellow. Anybody my superior that I was to say “mister” to, I was never allowed to call anybody by the first name.

Jack Rubenstein was one of them who treated me like I was somebody. He treated me very decent and when I said Mr. Rubenstein he informed me that his name was Jack and that is the way I was supposed to address him and he was the only one of all of them that I can remember whoever told me this. In other words, he treated me very, very nicely. And also I was quite impressed when he asked me to go to dinner with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This time that you went to dinner with him; what did you talk about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, we mostly talked about the jewelry, if I remember, and, of course, at that time also something came up about this Mr. Levinson and it was my impression that he knew this Mr. Levinson, and he was talking about, he said, when I got there he said, why if I didn’t have a place to go, a hotel or anything to let him know and he could find me a real cheap apartment and a real nice one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about any political topics?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was never mentioned that I know of. The Communist Party was never mentioned in any way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Rubenstein talk about political topics?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to me personally, and I couldn’t, I wouldn’t want to say for sure that he ever did but I know there was one time when him and Seymour, Lawson Jaffe, and there was one or two others there, and they was in an argument about something, they was arguing about something about what Roosevelt was doing.

Anyway, they referred to him as everything but a President of the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Rubenstein’s attitude about it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He agreed with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was hostile to President Roosevelt?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he was--well, I don’t know if it was Mr. Roosevelt or not but it was the way the U.S. Government was doing in the war. What they was doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon--was this on the first meeting or the second meeting?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. I know there were several of them there on the second meeting, the second meeting I had with him when we went to dinner. When we came back, I believe it could have been on the second meeting because this is the meeting that there were so many of them came in the shop there and they was all arguing and talking about it and then they commenced to jump on Sam Jaffe and Sam carried, had a large map on the wall, and he used to keep pins in it. All the moves, every move the Russians made and every move the United States made. He had a red pin for the Russians and I don’t know, a green or blue for the United States, and then I think he had another, the black pins he was using for the German Army where they were at, and every time there was news he would always jump up and go ahead and change his pins so he would know where they was at. And they came in and looked at his pins and they was saying he had it all wrong, and so forth, and so on, and they was going to change it and Sam wouldn’t let them.

This was actually, if I remember correctly, this is what really brought on the argument because they got to arguing about the United States wasn’t doing what they were supposed to do, and that they was lagging behind, and if they had a President of the United States that knew what he was doing that they could get this thing over with, go in there and completely wipe Germany out and take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were criticizing Roosevelt because they didn’t think he knew how effectively to conduct the war, is that correct?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think this was mainly the drift of it. This is mainly what they was arguing about. But after they went into the other office while they was talking in there there were certainly things that came up about how the administration was being run, and there was, I remember something about some law that they had passed or a resolution or something, that they was all very concerned about, that they was all quite upset about but I can’t recall what it was they was talking about now.

It was something I don’t know now, what it was something Congress passed or what it was, and I don’t know if Jack Rubenstein entered into that conversation or not.

It seemed like I heard his voice once or twice, then like I say I am not sure. There were so many in there I couldn’t know who was talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Shuster ever associated with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I know of. I mean he could have known him and he could have been up there sometime when he was there, I don’t know. There was usually so many in and out that I never really--I couldn’t really say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Jasser talk with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser; yes, many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Standt talk with Mr. Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt usually came up. Bill Jasser, after Seymour and them would come in from Chicago, Lawson Jaffe was the first one to come up or usually he would come up with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you, Jack Rubenstein was only there on one occasion that you recall when they had a meeting?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And my question to you is, do you ever recall that Mr. Jasser talked with Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Phil Jasser used to come up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did he talk with Rubenstein on this one occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know as he actually came up and talked to Jack Rubenstein personally but he would come up and him and Seymour and Rubenstein and Sam Jaffe were always in the same office and Lawson Jaffe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say all would be, as if it happened a number of times but there was only one occasion when you mentioned that Rubenstein came in and you had any idea that there was a meeting afterward or there might have been a meeting afterward.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. What I mean is when they would come up there to the office shortly after they would get there the rest of them would come in on various occasions. Usually when they came in they would spend anywhere from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 hours or maybe all afternoon in Sam’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, the first time you tell me that Rubenstein came he was only there for a short while, a couple of minutes, and the next time that he came you think he was around for a couple of hours, and the next time----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The next time he came in he was there quite awhile in the afternoon. This was when so many of them were in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next time he came in he spent the 2 hours with you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time is when he spent the 2 hours, hour and a half with me when we went out to dinner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time. I see. The first time he came how much time did he spend?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time I can’t recall exactly how long he was there that first time. All I remember is I couldn’t actually say how long but there was several different ones came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. So he could have been there 15, 20 minutes, a half hour, maybe an hour, 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people who visited Sam Jaffe regularly from out of town?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. The only ones I actually recall out of town that used to come up there was just his son-in-law, Seymour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know anybody else who visited him from out of town?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There were others who came in but I can’t recall any of their names and they never came regularly, I mean never long enough for me to be introduced or anything like that that I could actually place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any salesmen who called on Sam Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, yes; we had salesmen coming in all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of their names?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t recall any of their names. I mean, this was strictly business and Sam took care of the ordering and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any customers who came in regularly?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of the jewelry store we were doing work for; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t have any business off the street?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I recall of. If he did, I mean it was something that I would know very little about, and as a matter of fact, he wouldn’t let me know because he wouldn’t want the other jewelry stores to know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you haven’t told us or we haven’t covered already that you think is pertinent to this matter?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think this is everything that I can remember to the best of my ability and knowledge right now. I know since I first told the FBI there in Medford about this that I thought it could possibly be the same man, the wife and I have talked it over on many occasions, and I have racked my brains trying to think of anything else that would be pertinent to it but I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the phrase that it possibly be the same man?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I told the FBI in Medford that I could not definitely swear it was the same man but his facial features and things leads me to believe that it could possibly be. And I didn’t really draw that conclusion until, and it is like I told them, I couldn’t actually draw that conclusion until after I had heard his name was Jack Rubenstein and he was from Chicago and then when I seen the picture of him, and it did very definitely look quite a bit like the Jack Rubenstein I knew, only somewhat older, because well I don’t know, the pictures I have seen of him since he shot this Oswald, he has always been rather sloppily dressed and when I knew him he was always very well dressed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your--go ahead.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of course, he is a lot paunchier now than he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a number of years, 18 years have passed. I want to thank you for coming here all the way from Oregon, and helping us with this. We appreciate any cooperation we can get in this matter. I don’t have any more questions, and if you don’t have any more, why, we can recess, adjourn.

TESTIMONY OF EVA L. GRANT

The testimony of Eva L. Grant was taken at 2 p.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Grant was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. Phil Burleson. Mr. Ernest Conner was also present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again for the record. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This is the second appearance, I believe, that Mrs. Grant has made before a staff member of the Commission, and I will not repeat for you the things that are routinely said at the beginning of each one, because I know you have heard them already.

I simply tell you that the primary purpose for coming back here again to talk to you is because we would like to get in a detailed form an orderly chronological formal statement of your activities on November 22, 23, and 24.

When we have completed that, I understand that you have a good many papers that you would like to present to us, and we will be happy to take whatever time is necessary to receive those.

I am hopeful we can get through the statements of your own activities in a fairly quick and orderly fashion.

So, if you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. GRANT. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state again for the record, your name?

Mrs. GRANT. My name is Mrs. Eva L. Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, where were you when you heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. GRANT. I was sitting in my living room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with you at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get word, over the radio or television?

Mrs. GRANT. Pauline Hall called me on the phone, and I believe it was shortly--Pauline Hall called shortly after 12:30, at least I believe it was that, and said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “Nothing.”

She said, “Turn on your television to channel 8,” and I did.

She said, “Do you know that the President has been shot?”

I thought it was a--wait a minute, well, I did remark about the fact that someone is passing it around to make it look bad like you do hear some things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you continue to watch television?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I had watched it earlier that morning. Wait--I knew he was going to be in town, and I watched him on television on channel 5. I think he was eating breakfast in that Texas Hotel, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you continue to watch television before you talked with anybody else after Pauline called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, I had it on, it seems, most all of the time. I think that I went into shock or something, but I had it on, I think. Even if I didn’t have it loud, I had it on. A lot of times I have the picture on and the voice real low.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, think back to this particular day after Pauline called you. Did you go about your housework, or did you watch television?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, if I remember, I had just been out of the hospital 9 days, and I wasn’t doing anything outside of trying to prepare myself some food if my friends downstairs didn’t bring me something up. Most days she saw that I had a hot biscuit every day. It was something else, whether it was dinner or breakfast, or if she thought I wanted something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think about what you did.

Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me ask you something. Do you want me to go back until the time I got up?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I simply want you to tell me everything after you hung up the telephone with Pauline. Did you sit in front of your television set until you next heard from somebody else, or did you do your housework, or what did you do?

Mrs. GRANT. This is what it seems to me. We talked about 5 or 6 minutes, and I kept on talking, and I may be confused about this minute, because I just couldn’t accept it, and it threw me off guard, and she said, “I will call you back.”

But we talked, and it seems to me he (meaning TV) kept talking about different things, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me a Federal man or security man--truthfully, I had not heard anything about the Governor. I don’t remember now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By “he,” you mean the person on television?

Mrs. GRANT. On channel 8. At the time, he wore glasses, it seems, and had black hair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pauline Hall called you, who did you next speak to?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me she was on three or four times. Wait a minute, Jack had called me, but it seemed he called me after 1 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk after Pauline called?

Mrs. GRANT. I talked again to her about three times. Either I called her or she called me. I wanted to see if she had news from another station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did all these telephone calls occur before Jack called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody else telephone you before your brother Jack called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, she may have called me--this girl’s name is Emma Collins, who worked for us as a waitress. I think she came in on weekends. I remember she wasn’t working for a couple of weeks, because I was in the hospital. It seems she may have called me during that afternoon. Whether she called me before Jack, or after, I wouldn’t put my life on that. But almost 1 o’clock I was listening the best I could to channel 8, and I heard this man say distinctly, “The President is dead.” I know I don’t want to even think of that. I don’t know what happened. I kept listening, and I don’t even know what he said. I don’t remember. Security, or the Governor, or I don’t remember anything more. I kept listening, and it seems to me another 3 minutes--even time didn’t mean anything, because, I don’t know, I just don’t know. He said, “It is not official.” So I kept hoping. I threw myself into a fit, and I have never done the crucifixion, and I don’t know which way is proper or correct, but I thought if it would help him, I would feel, well it would just help him. And he kept talking, and it seems to me he said, “The President is at Parkland Hospital.” And Pauline and I talked again, and she said, “I have to hang up.” She wanted to call some friends, or her daughter. And it seems to me I already heard--it might have been 20 minutes later this time, a fellow says, “The President is dead” [starts crying]. And it seems to me Jack called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant----

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain something. I have been very sick, and I was taking pills, which I showed Leon Hubert. No; someone came to my house recently, Clemmons--what is the name of that fellow? An FBI man and Hosty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hosty?