Chapter XIX: Front Matter (19)

I know of one or two little incidents where he would contribute to their welfare funds or what have you and I think then when they had him there at the city hall and they caught him after the shooting, and the remark was made, “You know me, I’m Jack Ruby”; it wasn’t that he wasn’t an important man, but I believe he was trying to say, “You know me, I am Jack Ruby. I am your friend, I don’t hate cops. I was doing this to help you because your hands were tied.”

And I had heard comments made to the effect that many more people said if they had a chance they would get Oswald. I had even heard this comment made in the coffee shops and down in the valley there, that the assassination was set up by Johnson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, as I say, this speculation which we really can’t indulge in but I appreciate your wanting to offer this to us.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I am offering it because I think I have studied it and looked at it and I know it and I feel like I know about it, but I don’t know---I may be completely 100 percent all wet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we will all be able to form a lot better impression of this after we have gathered all the facts and we are able to sit down and inform the people after we have evaluated it, and I know that from what you have said you will probably be very interested in knowing that we are developing these facts and we are going to publish it in--650 pages--we are working toward, but I want to thank you very much for coming here tonight, Mr. Rossi.

Mr. ROSSI. All right. I feel it is a privilege and if I have been of any help--fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It has been a pleasure to have you, and again, we appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

Mr. ROSSI. I guess everybody is sorry it happened--and I am not a Democrat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know there are a lot of people who are, are sorry that it happened.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, if I could go back and go three times and bring him back, because I think he was one of the finest young men we have had, at least, I felt that way, and I felt most of us felt that way and I think Ruby wanted to be somebody and he felt that way--he looked up to the President and thought that he was a fine President, and at any rate that’s all changed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Rossi, for coming down.

Mr. ROSSI. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF NORMAN EARL WRIGHT

The testimony of Norman Earl Wright was taken at 9:10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit before I administer the oath and start to ask you questions about the nature of the proceedings that we are going to have here for the next few minutes.

The Commission that I work for was set up by President Johnson under an Executive order which he issued on November 29 of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

We have been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the President on all the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission has been given authority to promulgate certain rules and regulations. Pursuant to those rules and regulations I have been designated to take your deposition. Our particular purpose in calling you here today, as you probably well would imagine, is to find out what you know about Jack Ruby. But if you have any information about the assassination of President Kennedy or any other matters that we are inquiring into, we would like to have any of that that you can give us.

Let me ask you if you received a letter from the Commission.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the letter is in St. Louis, but I didn’t receive it while I was there. I was on my way when it came to East St. Louis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I should tell you under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to receive written notice from us 3 days before you appear here, and I would ask you at this point if you are willing to go forward without actually having received the letter.

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I spent a lot of money on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about this proceeding before I administer the oath?

Mr. WRIGHT. None whatsoever, because I have been through this with the FBI quite a few times on the west coast, and I imagine it is along similar lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WRIGHT. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to the reporter your full name?

Mr. WRIGHT. My full name is Norman Earl Wright. My stage name is Earl Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?

Mr. WRIGHT. I live at 8820 Bermuda Street, Caseyville, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas in the fall of 1963?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. My family was here. I will explain that. I lived here, but the week of the Friday the President was killed, I opened at the Largo Club in California the night he was killed, on that day, which would be November 22.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you been working in Dallas previous to that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Previously I worked for Jack for over a year. I worked for Abe at the Colony Club. I don’t remember exactly how long. I worked for Barney at the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately before you went to California, who were you working for?

Mr. WRIGHT. Barney Weinstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Theatre Lounge?

Mr. WRIGHT. Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You ceased working for Barney when?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was the Sunday. I don’t know the date, but it was the Sunday before I opened the following Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been the 17th of November? Friday was the 22d.

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I closed on a Sunday and opened out there on a Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have then 4 days in which you were unemployed before Sunday to Friday?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I had left here. I stayed here until Tuesday and left Tuesday and arrived in California Wednesday afternoon, because I was directed by my agent to be there by Wednesday night, which the club only requested that I be in 2 days before opening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back somewhat in time and ask you when it was that you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. WRIGHT. It was in June of 1961 when I came to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to become employed by him?

Mr. WRIGHT. I was employed by an agent out of St. Louis. I got a contract from an agent, Mike Riaff in St. Louis, to come to work for Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, and it was the first time I had met Jack, or the first time I had been in Dallas in about 11 years, I imagine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What actually is it that you do?

Mr. WRIGHT. I am a comic, MC, and I sing and do comedy, and run the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that line of business?

Mr. WRIGHT. Since 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are you now?

Mr. WRIGHT. Thirty-nine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Jack when you started in June of 1961?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was approximately about 13 or 14 months. I don’t really remember the exact length of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to terminate your employment with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the first time I got very ill because I was working 7 days a week consistently, for approximately 6 months, and I lost the hearing in one of my ears and practically lost my voice. He didn’t want to let me go, so I just quit and went back to St. Louis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you work for him again?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I went to Biloxi, Miss., and Jack called me down there and asked me to come back to work for him, and I came back again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it approximately that you came back to work for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was, I would say, approximately 8 weeks after I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Still would have been the latter part of 1962?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him on that occasion?

Mr. WRIGHT. About 5 or 6 months. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him again after that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Off and on. Sometimes as a relief for the MC there, or maybe a week at a time, or 2 weeks at a time, but no more than 2 weeks at a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like you to tell us something about Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the kind of jokes that he permitted to be told in his club.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack--first of all, the first thing he told any MC, including myself or anyone else, was that he did not want anyone to tell any Jewish stories. Later on I realized the fact that he was very self-conscious about many things about him personally, and I imagine that is why I came to this conclusion. But most of the material would be standard material for burlesque houses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what sort of personal things Jack was sensitive about?

Mr. WRIGHT. His hair. His speech.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about his speech?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had a small impediment in his speech that he was quite conscious of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a lisp?

Mr. WRIGHT. Sort of a lisp, and he wore a hat practically all the time outside of the club. He was very conscious of that. And he was very conscious of his weight. He was always going on a diet, or weightlifting, or something, and he was always conscious of the fact that a lot of people thought he was sort of a gay boy. Whether he was, I don’t know personally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there--I take it by “gay boy,” you mean that he was a homosexual?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about him that gave that impression?

Mr. WRIGHT. I don’t know. He never impressed me that way, but he himself thought that people thought he was that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard anyone say that they thought he was a homosexual?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not personally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Jack mention this to you?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, in a joking manner. As I remember, one time someone gave him a cigar or something, and he put it in his mouth and lit it and said to me, “I don’t look gay now, do I?” It was Jack’s attitude toward people that I imagine some people might have thought he was that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more explicit about his attitude toward people?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he seemed, and I imagine in the eyes of most people, to go out generally with more men than women. But there were more women that came to the club to see Jack than men. George Senator is about the only guy that I know that he ran around with who was his roommate, and Ralph Paul, who was one of his partners. But other than that----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Carousel Club frequented, to your knowledge, by homosexuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there clubs in Dallas which are hangouts for homosexuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack object to any sort of religious jokes other than Jewish jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge. He specifically made a statement that he didn’t want any Jewish stories at all told, whether or not they were jokes or just stories or anything about Jewish people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in his conversation with you or his behavior that suggested other things concerning his attitude about being a Jew?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to my knowledge, because I worked for just about every club. He was a typical club owner, but an odd one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had worked for the two Weinsteins, and I take it they are both Jewish?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have the same attitude toward Jewish jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; very few Jewish people do have. In fact, I worked for a lot of Jewish people, and Jack is the only Jewish owner of any club that ever told me that or has ever told any MC that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you every been in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was over there once. George fixed dinner, and I don’t know, there were a bunch of kids from the club, and we all went over one night after closing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing any books in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall talking with him about any books that he had been reading?

Mr. WRIGHT. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did he ever mention to you that he was reading any books about the Jewish people such as Exodus by Uris?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate that he didn’t approve of Catholic jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any limitation on the sexual jokes that might be told?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, yes. There is a standard that I think all MC’s with quality carry, and Jack, operating as an operator here in Dallas, realized that you can only go so far, and if you go over further, you only end up hurting yourself anyway. He maintained as good an operation as anyone else in town, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever express any views on the political jokes that you might have told?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you have any occasion to talk with him about President Kennedy?

Mr. WRIGHT. I imagine once or twice he mentioned the fact that he admired President Kennedy quite a bit and had a great deal of admiration for him and what he was trying to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any specific recollection of such a conversation?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not specifically; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationships did he have with his employees?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, with Jack, it was an off and on relationship. He could be smiling and joking with you one moment, and then be mad and ready to throw you out of his club the next. He was a very unpredictable man when it came to relationship between employees and boss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was his employee turnover? What success did he have in keeping people?

Mr. WRIGHT. He had very good success in keeping people. Jack was the type of person that you liked and disliked, and how you can analyze this, I don’t know. But with all his faults, the way he did things, you still liked the man, and at the same time he could make you dislike him just like that [snapping fingers], you know, on the spur of the moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your experience that once he hired somebody, that that person stayed with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Pretty much so. I know the length of time I worked with Jack, and even after I left Jack, most of the employees that were there when I came there and came there after I was there, were still there when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this include the dancers?

Mr. WRIGHT. Most of the dancers, and the band was there for the year and a half after I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude toward his competitors, the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. He thought they were out to close him up. Neither Abe nor Barney were worried too much about Jack, but Jack worried all the time about them. He tried to outdo them or capitalize on any publicity that might bring people from their club to his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that they did which indicated to Jack that they were trying to close him up?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing. Just Jack’s own mind and the way he thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did he attempt to do to attract people from their club to his club?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, trying to put in different ads. In fact, he had a billboard made about his club and some of the pictures of the acts in the club put in the cleaners underneath Abe’s club and things of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Enquire Shine & Press Shop?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is right below Abe’s club and each night the guy would stick it in the window and it advertised Jack’s club, which was down on the other side of the parking lot from Abe’s club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack use amateur strippers in his shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; they all do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall that there came a time when Jack felt that he wasn’t being permitted to use the amateurs and the Weinsteins were?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack fought the battle. First of all, Jack didn’t like to put out the money that Abe and Barney were putting out, because Abe and Barney would use on their amateur shows, which is held once a week in each club, they would use on the average, if they had the girls, maybe five or six girls, which would cost them anywhere from $10 to $15 a girl. Jack felt that that was too much money to put out, so he would, therefore, use three or four girls. But in the meantime, he was trying to get the union to stop amateur shows altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the union have any sort of rule against amateur shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. They did and they didn’t. We never actually found out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was ambiguous about the rules which they had in this respect?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, our constitution says that no professional entertainer is to work with an amateur entertainer. This was the primary rule that Jack was basing his complaint on, which I and most of the entertainers at the time agreed upon. But you must work in this business, and therefore, Barney and Abe, well, especially Barney, started the amateur shows, I think about 13 years ago, and he has put a lot of people in business as far as dancers go, and he has put a lot of people to work. I was on the local board at the time, and we had memos from the west coast and New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this the local board of the American Guild of Variety Artists?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is the local executive board. We were sent memos to the branch managers that at one time the amateur shows were to cease, or these people were to join the union and then they could work. Well, this was complied with, and then not long after that, the people that were head of the various regional offices were fired and we had new memos. So actually, we never found out whether the whole thing is still legal or illegal, but a lot of the kids that were amateurs joined the union, and some of them still belong to the union.

But I imagine some of them don’t. I don’t know for sure, because I quit the board because of the fact that we got one memo that said one thing, and another memo that would contradict the memo before, so it got to be a confusing situation altogether. When I got out in California, I went to see Mazzie, who, when I left Dallas, was the west coast regional director of AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. M-a-z-z-i-e?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well he was west regional director. But when I got to California, I went up to see him to talk to him about what was going on in Dallas. He had been fired and Bobby Faye in New York had been fired. They went into an interim committee that took care of the union until recently. I understand they had elections, and I forget the gentleman, I don’t even know the guy that is head of the thing. I haven’t bothered to look to see.

See, our union is not run like most unions. AGVA is run by the secretary of the union, and then you take people like Joey Adams who was president. It is an honorary thing. Then you have the vice presidents and so forth. But the main part of the union is run by the members of the national board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you quit the local board here in Dallas?

Mr. WRIGHT. It was about a month before I left town, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the local board, did Jack come to you about his problems with the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. He went to everybody on the board about his problems.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come to you?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that you were helping him or not?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, when I left town--in fact, the main reason, one of the reasons that I resigned from the board was the fact Jack thought after I had gone to work for Barney and Abe after leaving him, that I was against him, and whatever happened to the board, I was doing for the benefit of Barney and Abe. In fact, last time I saw Jack before I left town, he refused to let me in his club because he said I was with his competitors against him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that particular incident. How did you happen to go to Jack’s club that night?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I was working at the Theatre Lounge, and the Theatre Lounge only does three shows a night, and Jack was doing a continuous show. I had about a 20- or 25-minute break, so I walked over to see Wally Weston, who was working there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t come over to see Jack?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I went over to see Jack or Wally, whoever was there. No one specifically. All three clubs are within half a block of each other, and you walk around between shows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you get into the club?

Mr. WRIGHT. I got to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he asked me to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not he had a gun with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he asked anybody to go get a gun when you came up, or when he saw you coming up?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten you in any way?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just asked me to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an argument with him there?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just said, “I don’t want you in my club. You are against me.” I said, “Fine.” So I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever asked you to do anything for him in connection with his complaint about the amateur strippers?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had asked to bring up at board meetings the reason why it hadn’t been cut out, because of his complaint. In fact, I believe he called Bobby Faye in New York several times, and called Mazzie in California several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was any effort made by the people who were in charge of AGVA to get the Weinsteins to stop using the amateurs in their shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said, we got memos to one effect that they were either to stop or the kids were to join the union, and then most of the kids joined the union, and in that way it went from $10 or $15 per girl to $35; which is our minimum that any act can receive as long as they are carrying a card. $35 per performance or per show, which would be one performance of the amateurs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack continuing to use amateur dancers during this period that he was complaining about the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. Oh, yes; he wasn’t about to cut it out. Sometimes he would use one or two girls instead of using four or five on something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise also that he was using amateurs?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Ruby discuss any political idea or political movements?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you ever hear him talk about H. L. Hunt?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby with any political literature of any sort?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about what his aspirations were?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some people have mentioned that Jack sort of admired what he called “class.” Do you ever recall that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Jack always wanted to be Mr. Big. He felt that he should be the top nightclub owner and the top boss in town, and he tried to capitalize on any type of publicity he could to promote his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider it unusual that Jack Ruby should not have attended the Presidential motorcade, and yet at the same time was very upset over the assassination?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said before, Jack was a peculiar man. To analyze his thinking within a period of an hour, would take a mass of brains to do so, because he never actually--Jack did things like this, where other people would think them out [snapping fingers].

I have seen him argue and get mad with somebody for no reason at all, just because of what they said or the way they acted just hit him the wrong way. And to say why he would do this and not do this, I couldn’t say. As long as I knew him, he still mystified me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever with Jack when he had a gun with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; he carried a gun in a bank bag on the seat of his car when he went to the bank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it his custom to carry the gun in his pocket?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to drive Jack’s automobile?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack had any particular practice concerning where he kept his car keys?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I imagine in his pocket because I know he kept a lot of his money from the night’s receipts. He put his money--a lot of the time I have seen him put his money in the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay working for Jack Ruby when you worked for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; in fact, we started her off as a professional entertainer when I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time that you worked for him that she started?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well, she did a couple of amateur shows, and then he put her to work as a regular dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But she had worked for him then, I take it, since sometime in 1961?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True, was she working for Jack when you worked for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, she came later on. I worked with Tammi, I don’t know exactly what month, but I have worked with her. I worked there with Millie Perelle, and worked there with Lee Sharon. I was trying to think of the girl that was there when I first came there. She is quite a good dancer. I can’t remember her name. But Kathy Kay, Jack put into the business, as far as a professional dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time the President was shot, was Kathy Kay a dancer who had worked for Jack the longest of any of the ones he had?

Mr. WRIGHT. I believe so, to my best knowledge, because you got to understand I was in and out of town a lot of times, too, and I don’t know whether the girls were there. I know she was there most of the time when I came back into Dallas, so I just assumed that she had been there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how Little Lynn happened to leave the employ of the Weinsteins and go to work for Jack?

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no idea; because I was not working for Jack at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn working for the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was working for Barney when she came to work for Barney, and I believe, I am not quite sure, I know she didn’t show up for 2 or 3 nights or something, or didn’t come to work, and didn’t call or anything, and Barney fired her. I assume that is the reason she went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for identification as Norman E. Wright Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This is a document that consists of three pages numbered at the bottom as 556, 557, and 558. It purports to be a copy of an interview report which was prepared by FBI Agent Lloyd D. Johnson, and Agent Aldo A. Giannechhini, after they had an interview with you on November 26.

Look this over and read it carefully and tell me if it accurately records what you told them on the 26th of November.

Mr. WRIGHT (after reading). I think that is pretty much what I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are satisfied that this is an accurate report of what you said?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me ask you to sign it on the first page near where I have marked it.

Mr. WRIGHT (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a final question, let me ask you, Mr. Wright, is there anything that you can think of that you know about Jack Ruby or know about the activities of November 22, 23, and 24, that might be helpful to the Commission that we haven’t covered?

Mr. WRIGHT. If I did, I would be glad to tell you, but being in Los Angeles during the whole time and not getting back to Dallas until after the middle of January, I have no more knowledge than what I have already stated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any information or heard anything which you think might be reliable about how Jack Ruby got into the basement of the police department on the 24th?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t. But I do believe that the way the--where the source came from, I have no idea, but I did hear that Sheriff Decker sent a car and a wagon, I believe, to pick Oswald up at 2 o’clock in the morning, and Chief Curry said that he had promised the news media that he would bring Oswald down at 11 that morning. Actually, this is hearsay, as far as I am concerned, but I have heard that.

The only other thing that I believe, in my own opinion, the police department is just as much to blame as Jack in a roundabout way, because there was no reason in the world, with all the police they had, for Jack to walk directly straight through that many people and walk up to a man and shoot him. I personally believe that they shared at least 50 percent of the blame.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I appreciate your frankness.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, that’s the only way I can be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right and I appreciate your coming here today. You have indicated previously that this did interfere with a prospect for a job that you had, so the Commission appreciates anybody who is willing to give us the time under circumstances like that. I have no more questions, and if you have no more questions----

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no more questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL LEE MOORE (KNIGHT)

The testimony of Russell Lee Moore was taken on July 23, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Generally our practice, before we swear the witness in and begin to take testimony, is to give you a little explanation of what we are trying to do here, give you some background on the investigation.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, issued on November 29, and a subsequent joint resolution of Congress.

Now, under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission is instructed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We are particularly interested in your testimony today because of your acquaintanceship with Jack Ruby. My questions will be directed along that line.

If you have any information at all that would bear on the assassination of President Kennedy, why, we would like to have that also.

Now, the Commission has promulgated a series of rules and regulations, and under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I am designated to take your testimony.

There is also a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to have a 3-day written notice before he appears for testimony. I think the first thing I will ask you, you did get a letter from us 3 days before you showed up here?

Mr. MOORE. Well, it was Tuesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I will ask you if you are willing to waive the written notice of the deposition.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the general nature of the testimony that will be taken here this afternoon before I get started?

Mr. MOORE. No. I have some things that I can add after your questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Very good. Let me ask you then if you will raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOORE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. MOORE. Russell Moore, known as Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a middle name?

Mr. MOORE. Lee, Russell Lee Moore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you prefer to have this deposition designated? Shall I address you as Mr. Moore or shall I call you Mr. Knight?

Mr. MOORE. I think Mr. Knight because this is my air name, Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Knight?

Mr. KNIGHT. Auburn Heights, Mich.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And will you give us your full address?

Mr. KNIGHT. 645 Auburn Heights, Mich.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in Michigan?

Mr. KNIGHT. Just about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in Dallas before that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?

Mr. KNIGHT. Two boys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to work in Dallas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. The last of February 1960.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your occupation then?

Mr. KNIGHT. Radio announcer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you work for?

Mr. KNIGHT. KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. From that time until about a month ago which would be 1964, first of June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you now employed as a radio announcer?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you with in Detroit?

Mr. KNIGHT. WXYZ, ABC.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in a general way what your duties were as a radio announcer at KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Personality and playing records. In other words, a personality radio show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the news department?

Mr. KNIGHT. I helped out occasionally in the news department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a staff of reporters employed by KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was in charge of the news department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Joe Long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many reporters did he have under him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. Sometimes four but at the present time three.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall who those people were on November 22?

Mr. KNIGHT. November 22? One was Glenn Duncan, Gary DeLaune, and Roy Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working in Dallas, did you have occasion to meet Jack Ruby before November 22, 1963?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us your best recollection of when it was that you first met Ruby.

Mr. KNIGHT. I would say, I can’t pinpoint the date, but about, I guess about a year or so before the assassination. I met him at a place called the Cotton Bowling Palace. It’s a place where people congregate that work late, and I worked till midnight. I would stop there on the way home for a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that episode.

Mr. KNIGHT. We were just all sitting around the table as far as I remember, and somebody mentioned Jack Ruby’s name, the owner of the Carousel. And there were other friends of Ruby with him at the time but I don’t recall their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. But it was of such a menial nature I wouldn’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him from time to time after that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I saw him at this establishment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw him between the time you first met him and November 22?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, no way again of being sure. I would say probably 7, 8, 9, 10 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever visit any of his clubs?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was down at his Carousel Club with my wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, let’s see. At least 9, 8 months; 8 or 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to talk with him in connection with your duties at KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he had, he was up at the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times did you see him at the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Only about twice. He had some commercials advertising his club that run on my show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he run these commercials to your recollection?

Mr. KNIGHT. About a week; just about a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was that before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. It was in that same area, about 9 or 10 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of conversation did you have with him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing other than he had the usual pitch, do a good job on these commercials, so forth and so on, and he at times would call me at the station at night, asking how we are coming along, to add this or put this in here. Of course, I couldn’t do that but he did call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise on any other radio stations that you know of?

Mr. KNIGHT. I am sure he did but not at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it unusual for a nightclub operator such as Ruby who is running a striptease club to be advertising on the radio?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, not if it’s--no. No. Because several other places of the same nature advertise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about promoting his twistboards over the radio?

Mr. KNIGHT. Twistboards?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotion other than his clubs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you at any time a membership card or say that he was going to make you a member of the Carousel Club?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; because it was an open club anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time that President Kennedy was killed?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was home, asleep, at my address on Barnsbridge Road in Dallas, taking a nap that afternoon, and my wife was in Corpus Christi. And she heard about it before I did and she called me on the phone and told me the original news. That’s the way I heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that the President had been shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the first thing I did was turn on the radio. Then I finished with--what would you do? I paced the floor and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to trace where you went.

Mr. KNIGHT. I didn’t go to any place at that time because I didn’t have to go to work till 7. My shift was 7 till midnight. My wife and kids were down in Corpus Christi visiting her mother. I was there by myself. So I just stayed there at my home on Barnsbridge until I went to work that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the hours that you were to work that particular night?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as every night, 7 to midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack Ruby between 7 and midnight?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some occasion to have contact with him afterward?

Mr. KNIGHT. I talked to him after midnight; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you first had occasion to talk with him.

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. May I do it my own----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I got through my shift at midnight. We were trying to get an interview with District Attorney Wade for the following morning’s newscast. By that time the newsmen had been up all day and it was 1 a.m. in the morning and they had gone home with the exception of Glenn Duncan who was covering the news from the post at the station and could not leave the radio station. So he told me to go to the courthouse and if I could get a hold of Wade--Wade had called and said he had granted his last interview of the evening--but he said if you get over there right fast you might get him. And the courthouse was only three blocks from our radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan told you a call had been made?

Mr. KNIGHT. Duncan I think had actually talked to Wade on the air about 20 minutes or so but didn’t get what he wanted and didn’t get it on tape for the early morning newscast. In other words, he wanted me to go over and get another interview with a special little tape recorder for the early morning newscast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you went over there, did Duncan tell you anything about having talked to Jack Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Ruby had called but this is later on in the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead. Then tell us what happened.

Mr. KNIGHT. I went over to the courthouse, arriving there approximately 1 a.m. It could be 10 before, 10 after, 15 after. I didn’t get to see Wade. I looked for him and I couldn’t find him, went to the second floor, came back, down to the main floor. There on the main floor I encountered Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was he on the main floor?

Mr. KNIGHT. He was near the entrance and I was getting ready to leave and he was hanging around the entrance talking to other people, and he saw me and recognized me. And I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you and ask you, by the main floor do you mean the floor on which the assembly room and records room are located, or do you mean the floor above that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I mean the main entrance, right near the entrance right off the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. As you walk in off the street you can either walk up or down but you can’t walk straight into the police department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Where you walk up the steps and walk in. And he was about 10 feet up, 10 feet back up the steps or so, talking to some people just generally milling around that I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. KNIGHT. I think, I am sure this is it. He overheard me ask where Wade was and then he said, “I’ll show you.” So I said, “Okay.” Then we went down in the basement. Now, I had never met Henry Wade before. Of course, I had heard of him. We went to the basement. Jack Ruby pointed out Henry Wade. Wade at that time was standing by himself, had just got through with an interview with another reporter. Wade pointed out, or Ruby pointed out Wade, and he told Henry Wade who I was and Wade’s reaction was, “Oh, the Weird Beard,” which I am known on radio. “The Weird Beard, my kids listen to you,” or something to that effect all the time. Ruby again spoke up before I had a chance to say anything and asked if he would grant an interview with me. Wade said, “Of course.” Now, a point that I don’t think I--on the phone they told me to make some notes, from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. And I don’t think I have told this point to the FBI or anybody before. I don’t think. I’m not sure. Ruby was insistent that I ask Wade if Oswald were insane. And he asked that, he told me to ask him that question at least twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you this? When you were up on the main floor or----

Mr. KNIGHT. On the way down. On the way down because I told him I wanted an interview and so forth and this slipped out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response to Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. At the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Negative. I wondered what he was doing there but it wasn’t, I couldn’t question, I mean I didn’t know because there were a lot of people milling around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I had in mind, when Ruby said to you “Ask him if Oswald is insane,” did you have any response to Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. “Okay,” I said, “That’s a point well taken,” or something to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby have any other things he wanted you to ask?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; that was the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you saw Wade, had Ruby said anything to you about the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not at that time; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had any discussion with him about anything other than the interview with Henry Wade up to that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing of significance; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had closed his clubs at that point, that you recall?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t mention his clubs at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw Ruby up on the main floor, do you recall who he was with?

Mr. KNIGHT. He was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing, actually standing alone some place?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, I had the impression he had been talking because there were other people around, but at the time I did see him, on the first visual contact, he was standing by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how he was dressed on that day?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I--it’s silly. It’s either a brown suit or a blue coat and I couldn’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead then, pick it up from where you were.

Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I did interview Wade. I did ask him a question about insanity and he said--I have the tape some place but I don’t know where it is. I looked for it, the interview itself, and I couldn’t find it. But the essence of the interview, he said that Oswald, he was a, he was not insane, something like it was premeditated or so forth and so on. That was the gist of the interview.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby stand by while that interview took place?

Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know, if he were in listening distance or not, because I wasn’t paying any attention to Ruby while Wade and I had the interview. But when I got through with the interview he was over say 15, 20 feet. He must have been talking to other reporters and so forth in the vicinity.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your interview with Wade last?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, about 30 seconds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished interviewing Wade?

Mr. KNIGHT. It took, the interview, either 30 seconds or a minute. I took the interview on the tape recorder, started out of the courthouse building. As I say, Ruby cornered me again, saying that he--and we walked up to the best of my knowledge, we walked up back to the main entrance. He said he had sandwiches and soft drinks for the personnel over at our station, KLIF, and offered me a ride back to the station. But since it was so close I did not ride back to the station with him. And I walked back to the station and evidently he went to his car from this point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, three or four blocks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what direction?

Mr. KNIGHT. As you go out of the courthouse, the station would be to the left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be south?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Across Commerce Street?

Mr. KNIGHT. It would be toward the Central Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Away from downtown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What intersection would it be?

Mr. KNIGHT. Jackson at Central Expressway. Now, I guess Ruby’s car was down this way or some place because he went over in a different direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you point that way you can’t tell.

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I went left and he went right. Is that all right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. That would be--you walked off onto Commerce Street and you turned left towards Central Expressway, and your recollection is that Ruby turned right toward the center of town?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. KNIGHT. I got back to the station. I was there giving the interview to Duncan who listened to it, we decided to use it on the morning’s newscast, when Ruby--I guess this must have been, by this time, a quarter till two, approximately--showed up again at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk to the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Four minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later did you next hear from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, I guess 20 minutes, time elapsed, 15, 20 minutes. It wasn’t too long but at least that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you when you first heard from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was again, to the best of my knowledge it was out in the hall from the newsroom. I was standing with Glenn Duncan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody walk back with you to the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I didn’t. But Ruby had called Duncan earlier asking if it would be all right if he did deliver sandwiches and soft drinks to the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you say the next thing you heard from Ruby. Now, how did you hear from him? Did he proceed to walk right in?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the door was evidently open and it had been open because we had newsmen going in and out. We had, there was a guy from New York City that phoned in his reports from the radio station, a station called WNEW.