Chapter XLIV: Front Matter (44)

Mr. SAUNDERS. I was alone; yes. I was headed to the building, to my office, at the time I stopped there.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take to go from the place you were parked there to your office building?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I took the cloverleaf off of Stemmons, which was another 200 yards south and turned back up Commerce Street and went through the triple underpass up to Young Street and turned--I mean--to Houston Street, and turned right on Houston Street down to Young Street, and my office is at that corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car in the street?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I parked it in our parking stall at the rear of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked up to your office?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us now an estimate of the time it took you from the time the Presidential car passed by you with everybody stooped down in it until you got to your office on the second floor?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Approximately 10 minutes--I would estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked whether that can be done in 10 minutes?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, yes; it can be done in much less than 10 minutes; however, with the general confusion around the area, the traffic was somewhat stacked up and after waiting for a couple of lights to get to the office, which I had to pass by--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to your office, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I went directly to my office and as I walked into the office there were several salesmen in the office at the time, as is normal for noon deadlines on Friday, and I walked over to my desk and at that time Jack Ruby was standing beside my desk, or standing at my desk. He was not seated there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you engage him in conversation in any way?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I spoke to him--this is a rather heated time of day any Friday in our business, particularly in my own instance, and I was dubious as to where we might stand as far as publication of the paper, due to the events that had just transpired, and I spoke to Jack--I had called on him previously. I had known him for 6 or 7 years, and I spoke to him, and each of us in the office were conversing to one another, and when I spoke to Jack he was very obviously shaken, and an ashen color--just very pale--he nodded in reply, if he replied anything--it was just in agreement, so to speak. We were making statements like “Well, this is terrible,” and things like that, and he just agreed and nodded, and with that I sat down at my desk and finished some work which I was working on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him thereafter?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, he was wandering around in the office. After I finished some immediate work--he was talking to various people around the office and there was a small television at an adjoining desk and we were over there watching it at the time--just generally milling around in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. This was Mr. Jeffery’s office?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first came in, was Mr. Newnam there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Newnam has previously drawn for us and identified as Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of John Newnam, a chart showing the general layout of the second floor, the rectangular upper right-hand corner with No. 1 in it, being Mr. Jeffery’s desk, and this dot with the circle being the television set.

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m giving you this as a bit of orientation--this squiggly line is a glass partition?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course you see this is the promotion department?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. He has numbered here the various desks in the advertising department?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at this and tell us which is your desk?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No. 5.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that desk that you spoke to Ruby, as you indicated a while ago?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he with reference to No. 5?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Between 5 and 3--there are 4 desks there.

Mr. HUBERT. Your seat actually is also between 5 and 3, isn’t it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he on the Young Street side of your chair or the opposite side?

Mr. SAUNDERS. On the opposite side.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I’m going to mark a place--would you say he was here--or would you show me where he was?

Mr. SAUNDERS. May I?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, indeed. Just mark an “X” to show where he was.

Mr. SAUNDERS [the witness so marked the exhibit].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will draw a little line out from here and say, “Ruby position when Saunders saw him”; is that correct?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were on the Young Street side of Ruby, right?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we enter from this area here.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, you came from the other way?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right. This is nothing but a blank wall with windows on this side--the front of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark a place called “Y” and ask you if that’s when you saw him?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. This is where you were--“Saunders’ position.” How long did you talk to him--about?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just momentarily; just to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter have any further conversation with him?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you described him as being “shook up and ashen white,” and of course by “ashen white” I think you probably mean pale?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other manifestations which led up to what is really an intellectual conclusion of being “shook up”?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack is a very nervous individual and always has been. Having called on him in previous years and having known him from a business association over a period of approximately 6 years, you get to know an individual and their reactions to a certain degree. He was virtually speechless, which is quite unusual for Jack Ruby. He usually has a lot to say and will talk to you at very great lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. That was immediately after you came in?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--this was upon my entering the office there--I went directly to my desk and spoke to him, and he just had a very dazed staring look on his face. To describe it further is a little bit hard to do.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say anything?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not to my knowledge. Due to the fact that each of us were speaking to one another in tones of remorse and he was certainly replying just like any of the others, in agreement, that it was a terrible event.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time, was it known that the President had been shot?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not known, I take it, that the President had died?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No. There was some--there were rumors around, possibly 30 or 45 minutes later, that he was dead, but it was not officially noted possibly for another hour or possibly an hour and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps you had better go over some of the other question marks you have--returning to the third paragraph?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in this sentence, “When Saunders first saw him, Saunders felt that Ruby was probably more shook up than any of the other people in the office at that time.” I don’t feel that he was necessarily “more shook up” than anyone else, but he was very obviously shaken by the events and the news of the President’s being shot.

Mr. HUBERT. You comment therefore is that this report indicating that you had said to the FBI people that he was more shook up or probably more shook up than any of the other people, is not an accurate statement of what you expressed?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I feel not.

Mr. HUBERT. And the accurate statement is that he was shook up like everybody else?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But not more so?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to the second page of Exhibit No. 1, I notice that in the fifth line you have a question as to a sentence reading as follows: “He never doubted Jack Ruby’s word at any time and Ruby never turned out to be a bad credit risk but always paid off exactly as he agreed.”

Mr. SAUNDERS. In our business association Jack Ruby’s club, the Vegas Club, was not extended credit by the Dallas News, but it was what we term a “cash with copy” account. He was advertising with us steadily, as he always did thereafter. At the time I was calling on him, quite often he would place advertising copy very close to deadlines over the telephone, which was not convenient to run 10 miles out to his club and try and get cash, where we had a 5-minute deadline or 10-minute deadline. I, in my own workings at the paper quite often work with accounts, and if they tell me “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” I’ll say “fine,” and I’ll go ahead and put the ad in the paper and go get the money the next day. This is what I would do.

I will not say I never doubted Jack Ruby’s word at any time. I think that is a misquote. It is a fact that he did do what he told me he would do on each instance, but any time in any business when you’re dealing with someone who is on a credit basis where there is no credit that has been established, you can’t help but take a tongue-in-cheek attitude, and certainly the statement makes it sound like I am trying to whitewash him, which I certainly do not mean to do.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s too broad--all you mean to say is that you would extend him credit on the terms you just described?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--on a personal basis.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice in apparently the 9th or 10th lines you have a question.

Mr. SAUNDERS. “Ruby never carried a gun on his person except on occasions when Ruby would be carrying money.”

I have never seen Jack or known of him to be carrying a gun on his person, but as stated further on, I have seen him counting money in his club and place that money into a paper sack and at the time place a gun that was in or on the desk, into that paper sack and walk out with it, but never to be carrying a gun on his person, in such a manner as to be concealed within a coat or pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your comment is that you don’t know whether he ever carried a gun, except as you have just described?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; as I have just described it, that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second paragraph--you have a little question mark there--“Ruby was known as being a woman chaser”--what about that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. “And to be particularly interested in the strippers that worked for him.”

Jack had related to me on occasion from time to time about that he might have dates with this stripper or that stripper, but not necessarily more so than any other girl that he might come in contact with. The point of being particularly interested in his strippers is somewhat misleading.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think that the word “particularly” doesn’t represent the thought that you meant to convey in the interview?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the next paragraph--there is a little question mark on the left-hand margin and I ask you what you have in mind there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, this was just conjecture on my part, just as any other person following the various news medias that Jack Ruby had previously to the shooting of Oswald been down to the Western Union office and wired money to a girl in Houston, I believe it was, and then it was reported that he had a large sum of money on his person at the time of the shooting of Oswald. My conjecture was he might have had a gun with him for those reasons, strictly from past experiences where I knew he had a gun about his person or in a paper sack when he had extra large sums of money with him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it’s conjecture on your part?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think the way the statement reads it indicates it is conjecture?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, that’s fine, but I did want that brought out that it is not a positive statement.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s not based on any facts you know about, but it’s your estimate of the situation from what you knew of him and of his operations?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see your question mark as to the last paragraph too?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, this is just my question here in regards to his telling me he had an injunction against another club advertising amateur nights of strippers. His point which he was attempting to show me one day--the injunction, which at the moment I was busy and didn’t have time to wait for him and excused myself--I did not see an injunction and this was just his word, and it was just the fact that these amateur nights as such--my understanding of the law reads--you can’t work as an entertainer unless you are licensed to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all the statement says is that some time before Ruby had told you that, and is it true, that he did tell you that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right “* * * only a short time before the assassination.” Now, this was misleading--it was several days before. It wasn’t in terms of minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see no other questions, so I take it that otherwise this statement represents a fair and correct report of the interview with you, as amended and as clarified, or is there anything else?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I believe that will clarify any questions in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby at any time about the Weissman ad?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that ad at all?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I am.

Mr. HUBERT. He never spoke to you about that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He never complained to you or made any comment to you whatsoever?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, he did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to anyone else within your hearing?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the Weissman ad in this sense--did you have anything to do with placing it, or do you know who placed it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. You know nothing about how it got into the paper or who placed it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Jack Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. When Jack Ruby left that day, when he left the offices?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, to ascertain a time, I would not try and hazard a guess, because his appearance there at the paper was a very commonplace thing, and to pay any particular attention as to when he comes and goes, we didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any independent recollection of having seen him after the first time you saw him when you first came in?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I’d say I saw him in and about the office for approximately 30 minutes afterward.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t particularly notice his departure because there was no particular reason why you should?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do think he was there for 30 minutes after you first arrived--and after you first saw him?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talking to Mr. Newnam?

Mr. SAUNDERS. He was over in the area of Mr. Newnam’s desk, where he was normally placing his ads--where he would normally be placing his ads--through Mr. Newnam. In my own recollection as to whether it was Mr. Newnam or another salesman taking care of him at the time, I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to lunch with Mr. Newnam that day?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, if you know, whether Ruby was still there when the announcement that an officer had been shot, came over the news?

Mr. SAUNDERS. The announcement of an officer having been shot was made at approximately the same time as I entered, that there was conjecture at that time as to whether there was an officer--now, the officer you’re speaking of being Tippit?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I would say he was not there at that time. There was conjecture that there might have been a Secret Service agent shot along with Kennedy at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That was when I first came in--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But the Tippit matter was considerably later, wasn’t it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--it was considerably later, and to my knowledge Jack Ruby had departed at that time. Now, he might have been in another area of the building, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe he had departed?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I don’t recall having seen him. As I say, I can remember him being around for approximately 30 minutes and it was considerably longer than that before the report on the Tippit shooting came through.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact, of course, that the report on the President’s death came after the report of the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would think that Ruby was gone when the announcement of the President’s death was made?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed that in your statement which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, you have made some remarks concerning your knowledge of Jack Ruby and his striving for recognition and his desire to do the right things and his respect for authority, and so forth. Can you give us some examples that would illustrate these characteristics?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack was always hovering around people in the newspaper business for some reason.

If myself or another salesman showed up at one of his clubs, it was almost the red-carpet treatment, which as advertising salesmen, we have no way to help him. We felt it was possibly a case of just wanting to be around newspaper people.

I know for a fact that Ruby quite often talked of knowing this police officer or that official in a bragging type manner.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a name-dropping situation?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Sort of a name-dropping situation.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was consistent, and for a long time?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--as long as I knew him, and at any time that he could be around anyone that had a name, regardless of what position, whether it be in the entertainment business, whether it be a columnist, or whether it be a city official.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a specific example of that? If you could give us some specific examples, it would be helpful.

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just quoting a specific example, with names--it’s been so long ago that I would hate to hazard a guess. It would just be a guess on my part.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his desire to do the right thing, which you recognize as a characteristic of this man, can you give me any examples of that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, from the time I first knew him, he always wanted to, and in conversations with him about his business, which was normal in our contact, he would want to strive to make his club better than the next club, so to speak, and he would constantly point out areas where if there was any rowdiness or loud, drunkenness-type parties in his club, he would throw them out.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it happen?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I’ve seen it happen, and not 3 weeks before the assassination--a Mr. Donald Campbell and myself, another advertising salesman, had visited for the first time his club.

Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel Club?

Mr. SAUNDERS. His Club Carousel, and at the time we were there, again it was very much the red-carpet treatment, wanting to know our opinions on his acts, and apologizing if the emcee had corny jokes, but he was working hard, and he had nothing but good things to say about most people, and the evening we were there there was a customer who had gotten a little out of hand, certainly nothing that you won’t see in any nightclub, and right away Jack Ruby took offense at it and told the person to leave and threw him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he use force to do so?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; he just went over and very pointedly told the man “This is not allowed in this club. Will you get up and leave right now--out. We don’t want you around.”

Mr. HUBERT. And the man left?

Mr. SAUNDERS. And the man left. As far as seeing him use force, I have never seen him use force. I have heard that he did on occasion use force, however, it was surprising to me because I never thought of Jack Ruby as being one who could physically or being physically capable of using force. However, I was evidently mistaken on that point.

Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned as a characteristic of him that he seemed to have respect for authority?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in the word “authority” is taken possibly out of context I should say--well, it’s almost the name dropping--anyone with any degree of notoriety.

Mr. HUBERT. And that would include of course people who had actual authority?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything concerning any underworld associations he might have had?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he express any opinion with regard to them?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no name dropping there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or in that area?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express to you any sensitivity or consciousness about his Jewish background or the position of the Jew in society?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not that I recall. Many people that I call on are Jewish, in my particular phase of business, and this area is very commonplace with me and never taken offense at or was there any reason to bring it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express any sensitivity in that area, or did you observe any?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, by way of closing this interview, I will ask you first of all if you have anything else you want to say?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Not that I can recall. I feel the statement pretty well covers any pertinent facts that I might be aware of.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been a very slight bit of conversation between us prior to the time this interview began, but I want to ask you whether in that slight conversation there was anything covered or mentioned that has not been recorded during the course of the interview?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. SAUNDERS. Thank you. I appreciate your time.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, and I’m sorry to have kept you waiting.

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s all right. Thank you again.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF THAYER WALDO

The testimony of Thayer Waldo was taken at 12:50 p.m., on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Thayer Waldo.

Mr. Waldo, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Waldo, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his movements and operations and associates and so forth.

I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. WALDO. On, as nearly as I can recall, Tuesday last.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and take the oath, please?

Mr. WALDO. Surely.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALDO. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please?

Mr. WALDO. Thayer Waldo. There is no middle initial.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. WALDO. 200 Burnett Street in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Apartment 520?

Mr. WALDO. No; I’ve moved from that. It’s now 926.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Fort Worth?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Waldo?

Mr. WALDO. I am a newspaper reporter.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been such?

Mr. WALDO. You mean in the profession?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. WALDO. Approximately 24 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?

Mr. WALDO. Just a year.

Mr. HUBERT. With what newspaper were you prior to joining the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?

Mr. WALDO. Well, for several years before joining the Star-Telegram I was abroad as a foreign correspondent in Mexico, Cuba until it was no longer possible to remain in Cuba, and then in the Dominican Republic.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Waldo, I have just a moment ago handed you a document consisting of five pages which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Joseph L. Scott and Tom Carter on November 30, 1963, which I have marked for the purpose of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of Thayer Waldo” and “Leon D. Hubert” which I have placed on the margin of the first page of that document, the right-hand margin, and on all four pages I have identified them by placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on those pages. Have you had an opportunity to read this, sir?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether this document correctly reflects the interview and the truth as far as you know it. If you have any place, at which you would like to make a comment, point it out so that I may get into the record just what you are talking about, then you can make your comment.

Mr. WALDO. The report of the transcription here is substantially correct. I have pointed out to you previously two minor discrepancies.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, one of them is on page 3, the second paragraph--the fifth and sixth lines reading as follows, to wit: “Waldo identified himself over the telephone by name and by newspaper and asked the Sergeant if Oswald had been moved. Waldo said the Sergeant said ‘No, he would be moved in one-half or two hours’”. Now, I think you want to address yourself to those two sentences?

Mr. WALDO. That’s right. The circumstance was that we had remained, I say “we”, that is a colleague of mine with the same newspaper, Ed Johnson and I, who were forming the team. We had remained at police headquarters until about 1:30 a.m. on the morning of the 24th of November. Then, having made arrangements with the Associated Press man, who was to be on duty throughout the night, to give us a call immediately if there was any indication that Oswald was going to be moved in the small hours of the morning, we retired and left word at the Hilton Hotel desk and if no other call came through, they were to ring us at 7 a.m.

We were awakened by that call and I was so convinced that the approximate pinpointing by police officials on the day before of the time of Oswald’s transfer was a ruse, that my first thought on awakening or on being awakened was that there had been some slip-up in notifying us. Therefore, I immediately tried to call the pressroom at police headquarters. The telephone rang half a dozen times, there was no answer, I got the police department switchboard operator back and asked to be transferred to the homicide department. That call was answered by a man who identified himself quickly as Sergeant so-and-so. I do not recall the name--I’m not even sure I caught it at the time, and in my anxiety to learn the facts, I did not even think to identify myself either by name or organization but simply asked, “Have they moved Oswald yet?” Without asking me who I was, the sergeant replied, “No, sir; that will be in about 2 hours from now.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. WALDO. That was within 7 minutes--say, 7:05.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you had an arrangement with the Associated Press man to call you if there was any sign of moving him. May I ask whether that was an individual arrangement that you made or was that made for all newspaper people?

Mr. WALDO. No; at the time we made this--you see, after Chief Curry and Capt. Will Fritz of homicide division had both repeated several times that there would be no further movement or interviewing of the prisoner that day, and they themselves had left the building and all the offices were locked up, only a few of us still thought that there might be something going to take place and remained behind in the pressroom, so that about 1:30 a.m. when the janitors had moved in, and we finally decided for the moment at least, nothing was going to happen, the Associated Press man who was one of us--I’d say there were perhaps six of us at that time in the pressroom, and I’m trying to think of his name--Ray Holcomb [spelling] H-o-l-c-o-m-b.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the Associated Press?

Mr. WALDO. Of the Associated Press, who was then going off duty, volunteered to Johnson and myself, because we had expressed reluctance to leave the pressroom and yet were pretty “bushed” by that time, having had no sleep the night before, he said, “We’ll have a man on duty throughout the night and we’ll be checking in here regularly. I can let you know the minute anything happens, if you like,” and that was the arrangement.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this made with all the people in the pressroom or just made with you two?

Mr. WALDO. I don’t recall that anybody else requested such an arrangement or had it made with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether all the other people who left before you did had similar arrangements to be called in the event there was a sudden move?

Mr. WALDO. I do not--I did not specifically hear anybody make such arrangements.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said there was one other place in this report which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1 that you wish to comment upon, and I think it’s the last paragraph on page 5. What do you wish to say about that?

Mr. WALDO. Well, it mentions here that “Waldo stated he did not recall seeing Ruby while on the third floor on the night of November 23, 1963, talk to anyone except when handing out his cards.” The occasion was not at night. That was in the mid- or late afternoon of that date, November 23. I am not positive of the time but recall it as being approximately 4 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. But the point is that you did not see him on the night of the 23d?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I do not recall seeing Ruby after, oh, let’s say, 4:30 to 5 p.m. on Saturday until the events of the following morning.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did see him on the 23d or around 4 o’clock or whatever time it was, you did not see him talk to anyone except when he was handing out cards?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not see him myself talk to anyone. I was told a number of things later by people, fragments of conversation, but of my own knowledge, I cannot testify to that.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time that you did see him on the afternoon of the 23d?

Mr. WALDO. Only in fact and in truth by recalling that it was 6 or minutes before 6, I believe, about 3 to 4 minutes of 6 when Chief Curry made his announcement that Oswald would be transferred to the county jail by 10 a.m. the following morning, and then thinking back on the time lapse, I would say there was roughly a 2-hour time lapse, remembering the things I did in between the two events, which is close.

Mr. HUBERT. So that it would be fair to say that the last time you saw Ruby up on the third floor of the police building on the 23d was around 4 o’clock in the afternoon?

Mr. WALDO. Well, certainly no later than 5. I saw him--I glimpsed him also apparently passing out cards and giving the same brief line of chatter to several people after myself, and it might have been half an hour afterwards and it might even have been 45 minutes, but no later certainly than 5 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. And I see that you fixed it by relating it to Chief Curry’s announcement and then backing off from that time?

Mr. WALDO. That’s correct, sir. I did look at the clock as soon as we received Chief Curry’s announcement to know who would be on my desk of the newspaper to receive it and recall that it was 3 to 4 minutes of 6.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing Ruby at the jail on Friday afternoon or night?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I do not. It is stated in there that I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby at all, sir?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him or meet the man you now know to be Ruby?

Mr. WALDO. Well, if it can be called a meeting, it would be at approximately 2 p.m., Sunday, November the 24th when he was brought down from his seventh floor, I believe it’s the seventh floor jail cell to homicide offices on the third floor of Dallas Police Headquarters for interrogation and was led down the corridor from the jail elevator to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. I had reference really to a meeting on the 23d, the day before--Saturday--but apparently you don’t classify that as a meeting. I think you saw the man that you ultimately identified as Ruby on the third floor or in the police building on Saturday?

Mr. WALDO. That is correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see him?

Mr. WALDO. I would say 5 or 10 minutes before he came up and gave me a card. I noticed he was passing out cards and saying something to people. There was such bedlam in the corridor of the third floor with the television apparatus that’s in there--unless someone was less than 10 feet from you, you could not hear what was being said.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you observed Ruby about 10 minutes before you had any further contact with him?

Mr. WALDO. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that called your attention to him especially?

Mr. WALDO. Only, I might say, a somewhat aggressive manner. I noticed that he was plucking at somebody’s sleeve to turn them around, and a few minutes later, seeing him give that man a card, and then a few minutes--2 or 3 minutes later--seeing him moving closer to where I was, giving out another card--as he gave out the card, giving the man a hearty slap on the arm--although I could not catch the words, I could catch the rather strident tone of his voice, and when he came up to me, although he did not behave in as gratuitously familiar a way in the sense of either clutching at my clothing or patting me, there was still a sort of overdone ingratiating manner as he gave out this card and said, and I’ll have to paraphrase it--I cannot remember the exact words--but it was something to this effect, “You’re one of the boys, aren’t you? Here’s my card with both my clubs on it. Everybody around here knows me. Ask anybody who Jack Ruby is. As soon as you get a chance, I want all of you boys to come over to my place, the one downtown here is more convenient, and have a drink on me. I’ll be seeing you.” That’s approximately it.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. WALDO. Approximately 4 o’clock, I would say, again basing it on my memory. I did not have a clock, I did not look at a watch or have a clock in vision at that moment.

Mr. HUBERT. It could have been as late as 5, you think?

Mr. WALDO. It could have been; yes. Time telescoped itself remarkably that day.

Mr. HUBERT. What leeway can you give on the 4 o’clock time the other way, that is, toward 3 p.m.?

Mr. WALDO. Let me think about that a moment. It’s very, very difficult to be even semi-exact about it at this distance. However, I would certainly have to say in all honesty that there could be half to three-quarters of an hour--I could be off--either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, I just noticed that on page 4 of the report to the FBI, the very last sentence on that page, the last line, that’s Exhibit No. 1, there is also a reference to the night of November 23, and since you have changed it previously to the afternoon, I would say that that applies to that, too, doesn’t it?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the last line on page 4 of Exhibit No. 1, where it says “night of November 23” should read “afternoon of November 23” where it’s there and the times would be as we have been discussing?

Mr. WALDO. Exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby at any time prior to this occasion you have just described?

Mr. WALDO. Not to recall him; no.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are quite certain that the man who did hand you this card and the man you ultimately came to know as Jack Ruby were the same person?

Mr. WALDO. To the very best of my belief and knowledge. At the time he handed me a card, he was wearing a hat, and when I saw him in the corridor on Sunday the 24th after his arrest he was not wearing a hat, but the man looked to be the same, and as I have stated, when he handed me the card, he identified himself verbally as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have the card today?

Mr. WALDO. No; unfortunately that seems to have been among several things that have disappeared.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know then you would say that Jack Ruby was at the police department approximately an hour or an hour and a half on that afternoon--you can’t tell whether it was more than that, but you would say it was not less?

Mr. WALDO. Yes; that’s true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us anything about the security arrangements or identification arrangements that were in effect throughout the whole period, that is, from the time of the President’s assassination on forward--in the jail, I’m talking about?

Mr. WALDO. In the jail--no, I went directly, as is stated in this transcript, the report, I went directly from the Trade Mart to Dallas Police Headquarters on the afternoon of November 22 within a matter of 30 minutes after we had learned that the President was shot. In fact, I was on the Stemmons Freeway passing the resort motel called “La Cabana” at the moment that the car radio reported the President is dead.

When I arrived at Dallas Police Headquarters, I was the first reporter of any medium, so far as I know, certainly there was no other in evidence--to reach the third floor. No one attempted to stop me or ask for any identification at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any identification on your person?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir; I had a badge--I have it with me in this book, if it’s of any interest to see it, merely identifying “Dallas, November 22, President Kennedy’s Visit,” which I was wearing on my lapel.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a press identification card in connection with the visit?

Mr. WALDO. That’s right, and the offices of the hierarchy of the Dallas Police Department are located on the third floor, were almost deserted, since Chief Curry, Deputy Chief Stevenson and others of the staff had either been assigned to the Presidential motorcade or to the Trade Mart, or in the case of Chief Curry, were invited guests or to have been invited guests at that luncheon. The man who was in the building in the offices, the highest ranking officer to whom I was directed by one of the secretaries, was Capt. Glenn King, who has subsequently been identified to me as in charge of public relations of the Dallas Police Department. I walked into Captain King’s office--is this of interest?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. WALDO. I walked into Captain King’s office and identified myself by name and newspaper and immediately noticed a fleeting expression on his face, which sometimes we who work in Fort Worth and have dealings with Dallas officials, have come to recognize, most particularly when something has taken place in Dallas which may give unfavorable publicity to that city, and before I could finish my question, Captain King interrupted and very courteously said, “Mr. Waldo, we know absolutely nothing here. We have heard rumors that there were some shots. We do not know where the shots came from or who they were aimed at, if anybody, or if anybody was hit. We don’t know anything.”

I could not help but assume that this was what in the vernacular might be called a brushoff, since in several open unoccupied offices and within hearing distance as I was speaking to him, there were police radio receivers turned on. Therefore, I had to assume that he sitting there must have been informed of the events.

Mr. HUBERT. And this was approximately at 1:35 or 1:40, wasn’t it?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you said you heard the announcement of the President’s death en route to the police department, and that was at 1:30?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The announcement of the President’s death was at 1:30, was it not?

Mr. WALDO. I thought, and I could be mistaken and I’m sure you’re in a better position after all your investigation, I was under the impression that it was earlier than that, that it was approximately 1:25--yes, about 1:30 or 1:35.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, it had been broadcast over the public radio that the President was dead, at the time you spoke to Captain King and he told you what you just stated?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir. I don’t believe anything of significance happened between that and the time that I noticed a little flurry of activity. I should say, incidentally, that in the interim, which would be approximately 35 to 40 minutes during which time I was talking to my desk, I might add that the girls in the office were extremely cooperative. One of the girls even said, “Well, you’ll want to be in here,” the pressroom being at the far end of the third floor corridor from there, “Just use my desk. I’ll move away. Use my telephone.”

I had talked to my desk at the Star-Telegram, and then I noticed a little flurry of activity, and as I say, during this time several of the high ranking officers, none of whom I knew by name at that time, had come in, and I asked a girl who had been standing with them in Captain King’s office, as I recall, just a few minutes, and then came out, “What’s going on?” and her answer was, “They found a rifle.” I asked, “Where?” and she said, “On the roof of the School Book Depository Building.” Of course, I stress this is secondhand information. She is giving it from what she heard from a high ranking official who undoubtedly was told by somebody else. In any case, that information was telephoned to my newspaper and I believe was used in at least one edition. Later it was officially stated, of course, that the rifle had been found on the sixth floor.

I think it is probably worth mentioning that I was present at the time that Officer McDonald and the other detectives brought the man who was subsequently identified to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in. In fact, by then there were two Dallas radio reporters and I cannot tell you who they were or what they represented. We were moving too fast at that time. Those were the only others. The three of us interviewed Officer McDonald in the hall immediately after he had delivered Oswald into the hands of the people in homicide. In fact, blood was still trickling down McDonald’s chin from the cut lip where he said he had been struck by Oswald, and at that time he gave us a version of the capture of Oswald, which was substantially in all details but one as it has subsequently been repeated on numerous occasions, including the sworn testimony at Jack Ruby’s murder trial.

The one difference was that at the trial and in other accounts that I have heard, it has been stated that when the house lights in the Texas Theatre were turned up and the officers approached Oswald, that he jumped to his feet, crying, “This is it!” and reached for the gun in his belt. Officer McDonald, at the time of that interview in the hall, moments after he had delivered Oswald into custody, was that what Oswald said when he jumped up was, “It’s all over!” That’s the only difference.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume that shortly after that the press began to crowd up into the third floor?

Mr. WALDO. They did indeed, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Not merely the press, but other news media?

Mr. WALDO. And people who were not news media. Access to that third floor for a number of hours thereafter appeared to be enormously easy.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you describe that--I know that you are describing it in that way--a negative way--but to put it this way, were there no guards on the elevators or the other means of access to the third floor for a number of hours?

Mr. WALDO. That’s correct, sir; there were not.

Mr. HUBERT. Subsequently there were?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did the guards do by way of maintaining security?

Mr. WALDO. The elevators in the Dallas Police Department open into a fairly large square area--I say “large” in comparison to the width of the corridor that runs out, and eventually two uniformed, I believed, motorcycle patrolmen were placed in that open space facing the elevators and at least theoretically, and I will explain that in a moment, required identification, meaning press credentials of some sort from anyone who attempted to get off that elevator and into the hall, unless it was naturally someone accompanied by an officer, as in the case of the wife and mother of Lee Oswald and so on.

I personally as late as 8 p.m. that night, and again this is approximate, but I would say about 8 p.m. saw two men get off the elevator and walk right past the guards, neither of them having any badge on and not be challenged or stopped. I believe but I’m not certain that it was one of these two men, who 5 to 10 minutes later, came up where I was standing talking to a European reporter from the “Agence France Press,” and asked “What’s the latest, what’s going on?”, which I might add is just not the way a newsman would ask a colleague. In fact, he wouldn’t do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Your impression is that those two men were not newspapermen?

Mr. WALDO. My impression is that they were not, and I am certain from my own visual evidence in any case, that they walked out of the elevator past the two guards without being challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they went?

Mr. WALDO. It was impossible to tell. By that time there were 250, probably, people jammed into that corridor.

Mr. HUBERT. What were the circumstances under which the viewing of Oswald in the assembly room on Friday were held?

Mr. WALDO. Well, at what I would judge to be approximately 10 to 10:30 p.m., Captain Fritz and District Attorney Wade came out of the homicide office into the third floor corridor and Captain Fritz, whose voice never carries--he speaks in a hoarse whisper most of the time--tried to say something, and there were immediate shouts of “We can’t hear you, we can’t hear you” from people only 15 feet away. So then Mr. Wade took over and I was close enough to hear him say that Oswald had been formally charged with the assassination of President Kennedy, but immediately there were cries from people two or three rows, if that’s the word, behind me in this jammed, packed mass, “Henry, we can’t hear you. We can’t hear you. Can’t we hold this someplace else?”

He then conferred with Captain Fritz and by then Chief Curry had moved in, maybe Chief Curry was there all the time--I didn’t notice him--but the three conferred and then Chief Curry, who can on occasion speak with considerable force and volume, called out and everybody heard this, “All right, we’ll set it up in the Police Assembly Hall in the basement for Mr. Wade to make his announcement, if that’s what you want?” Or--approximately those words, and then there was another momentary conference between the district attorney and the two police officials, and Chief Curry added, and I am almost certain that no one requested this--it was a voluntary statement on his part, “And I’ll have the prisoner brought down for you, too, if you like.”

So, immediately there was movement, because the TV people had to start getting their equipment down, all of which of course took a considerable time. I might add first that Curry said, “We can do it in about 20 minutes,” but while waiting for the TV cameras to be transferred down and set up properly, it took more than an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. What security measures or identification measures were used to start security as to the assembly room, as to who would go in it?

Mr. WALDO. None whatever that I observed. I myself walked down the stairs, which faced the elevators on the third floor, to the basement. The basement is also the site of the police booking office. People were being brought in or coming in to inquire about relatives, I presume. That seemed to be the general tenor of it, and were not being kept away, and peering curiously into this police assembly room where everything was being set up.

Mr. HUBERT. There were no guards at the entrance of the assembly room?

Mr. WALDO. None that I saw, sir; no.

Mr. HUBERT. So that everybody got into the assembly room who wanted to get in, and Oswald was brought down shortly thereafter?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that the interview was of very short duration?

Mr. WALDO. It was, and it was preceded by a very stern warning from Chief Curry--that any undue movement to crowd in on the prisoner or shove cameras forward or to clamor on furniture, would immediately cause the interview to be cut short and he said, “The prisoner will be taken away and will not be brought back; is that clear?” He said, “I want everybody to stay where he is.”