Chapter XIII: Introduction (12)

_Department of Foreign Affairs._

The engrossed bill "for establishing an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs," was read the third time.

Mr. SUMTER.--This bill appears to my mind so subversive of the constitution, and in its consequences so destructive to the liberties of the people, that I cannot consent to let it pass without expressing my detestation of the principle it contains. I do it in this public manner, in order to fulfil what I think to be my duty to my country, and to discharge myself of any concern in a matter that I do not approve.

Mr. PAGE discovered the fate of the bill; he knew it must pass, but, nevertheless, he would decidedly give it his negative, and he hoped the respectable minority which he had the honor of voting with hitherto on the question of removability, would unite with him firmly in their opposition; and in order to record to their constituents the sentiments they maintained, he moved to take the question by the yeas and nays.

One-fifth of the members present joined in requiring the yeas and nays; whereupon they were taken, and are,

YEAS.--Messrs. Ames, Benson, Boudinot, Brown, Burke,
Cadwalader, Carroll, Clymer, Contee, Fitzsimons, Gilman,
Goodhue, Griffin, Hartley, Heister, Huger, Lawrence, Lee,
Madison, Moore, Muhlenberg, Schureman, Scott, Sedgwick,
Seney, Sinnickson, Sylvester, Trumbull, and Vining.--29.

NAYS.--Messrs. Coles, Gerry, Grout, Hathorn, Huntington,
Jackson, Leonard, Livermore, Matthews, Page, Parker,
Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Sherman, Smith, of Maryland,
Smith, of South Carolina, Stone, Sturgis, Sumter, Thatcher,
Tucker, and White.--22.

So the question was determined in the affirmative, and the clerk directed to carry the bill to the Senate, and desire their concurrence.

_Department of War._

The House then went into a committee on the bill for establishing the Department of War. Mr. TRUMBULL in the chair.

Mr. BENSON proposed, with respect to the Secretary's being removable by the President, a similar amendment to that which had been obtained in the bill establishing the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Mr. SHERMAN thought it unnecessary to load this bill with any words on that subject; he conceived the gentleman ought to be satisfied with having had the principle established in the other bill.

Mr. PAGE was of the same opinion, but further thought it argued a doubt, even in the mind of the majority, of the truth of their principles, and they wanted, by repetition, to force that upon the mind which was not impressed by right reason. The question on the amendment was taken without further debate, and carried in the affirmative, twenty-four to twenty-two.

Some other small alterations being made, the committee rose, and reported the bill as amended; which being partly considered, the House adjourned.

THURSDAY, June 25.

_Department of War._

The House resumed the consideration of the amendments reported by the Committee of the Whole to the bill for establishing the War Department; which being agreed to, the bill was ordered to be engrossed.

_Treasury Department._

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for establishing the Treasury Department, Mr. TRUMBULL in the chair. The second clause being under consideration,

Mr. PAGE objected to the words making it the duty of the Secretary to "digest and report plans for the improvement and management of the revenue, and the support of the public credit;" observing that it might be well enough to enjoin upon him the duty of making out and preparing estimates; but to go any further would be a dangerous innovation upon the constitutional privilege of this House; it would create an undue influence within these walls, because members might be led, by the deference commonly paid to men of abilities, who give an opinion in a case they have thoroughly studied, to support the minister's plan, even against their own judgment. Nor would the mischief stop here; it would establish a precedent which might be extended, until we admitted all the ministers of the Government on the floor, to explain and support the plans they have digested and reported: thus laying a foundation for an aristocracy or a detestable monarchy.

Mr. TUCKER.--The objection made by the gentleman near me is, undoubtedly, well founded. I think it proper to strike out all the words alluded to, because the following are sufficient to answer every valuable purpose, namely, "to prepare and report estimates of the public revenue and public expenditures." If we authorize him to prepare and report plans, it will create an interference of the executive with the legislative powers; it will abridge the particular privilege of this House; for the constitution expressly declares, that all bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives. How can the business originate in this House, if we have it reported to us by the Minister of Finance? All the information that can be required, may be called for, without adopting a clause that may undermine the authority of this House, and the security of the people. The constitution has pointed out the proper method of communication between the executive and legislative departments; it is made the duty of the President to give, from time to time, information to Congress of the state of the Union, and to recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient. If revenue plans are to be prepared and reported to Congress, here is the proper person to do it; he is responsible to the people for what he recommends, and will be more cautious than any other person to whom a less degree of responsibility is attached. Under this clause, you give the Secretary of the Treasury a right to obtrude upon you plans, not only undigested, but even improper to be taken up.

I hope the House is not already weary of executing and sustaining the powers vested in them by the constitution; and yet it would argue that we thought ourselves less adequate to determine than any individual what burthens our constituents are equal to bear. This is not answering the high expectations that were formed of our exertions for the general good, or of our vigilance in guarding our own and the people's rights. In short, Mr. Chairman, I can never agree to have money bills originated and forced upon this House by a man destitute of legislative authority, while the constitution gives such power solely to the House of Representatives; for this reason, I cheerfully second the motion for striking out the words.

Mr. BENSON.--If the proposed amendment prevail, the bill will be nearly nugatory. The most important service that can be rendered by a gentleman who is at the head of the Department of Finance, is that of digesting and reporting plans for the improvement of the revenue, and supporting public credit; and, for my part, I shall despair of ever seeing your revenue improved, or the national credit supported, unless the business is submitted into the hands of an able individual. I thought this subject was well understood, from the debate on the original motion. It was then insisted upon by an honorable gentleman, Mr. GERRY, who opposed the appointment of a Secretary of the Treasury, that his important duties ought to be "to consider of the means of improving the revenue, and introducing economy into the expenditures, and to recommend general systems of revenue." Now, what more than this is required by the clause?

For my part, I am at a loss to see how the privilege of the House is infringed. Can any of the Secretary's plans be called bills? Will they be reported in such a form even? But admitting they were, they do not become bills, unless they are sanctioned by the House; much less is the danger that they will pass into laws without full examination by both Houses and the President. From this view of the subject, so far is the clause from appearing dangerous, that I believe it discovers itself to be not only perfectly safe, but essentially necessary; and without it is retained, the great object of the bill will be defeated.

Mr. GOODHUE.--We certainly carry our dignity to the extreme, when we refuse to receive information from any but ourselves. It must be admitted, that the Secretary of the Treasury will, from the nature of his office, be better acquainted with the subject of improving the revenue or curtailing expense, than any other person; if he is thus capable of affording useful information, shall we reckon it hazardous to receive it? For my part, when I want to attain a particular object, I never shut my ears against information likely to enable me to secure it.

Mr. PAGE.--I can never consent to establish, by law, this interference of an executive officer in business of legislation; it may be well enough in an absolute monarchy, for a minister to come to a Parliament with his plans in his hands, and order them to be enregistered or enacted; but this practice does not obtain even in a limited monarchy like Britain. The minister there, who introduces his plans, must be a member of the House of Commons. The man would be treated with indignation, who should attempt in that country to bring his schemes before Parliament in any other way. Now, why we, in the free republic of the United States, should introduce such a novelty in legislation, I am at a loss to conceive. The constitution expressly delegates to us the business of the revenue; our constituents have confidence in us, because they suppose us acquainted with their circumstances; they expect, in consequence of this knowledge, we will not attempt to load them with injudicious or oppressive taxes; but they have no such security, if we are blindly to follow perhaps an unskilful minister. It does not answer me, Mr. Chairman, to say the House has a right of deliberating and deciding upon these plans, because we may be told, if you prune away this part or that part of the system, you destroy its efficiency. Therefore we must act with caution; we must either take or reject the whole; but if we reject the whole, sir, we are to depend upon ourselves for a substitute. How are we to form one? For my part, I should not despair, that the united wisdom of this House could procure one; but if we are to do this in the second instance, why cannot we attempt it in the first? I have no objection to our calling upon this or any other officer for information; but it is certainly improper to have him authorized by law to intrude upon us whatever he may think proper. I presume, sir, it is not supposed by the worthy gentleman from New York (Mr. BENSON) that we shall be at a loss to conceive what information would be useful or proper for us to require, that we must have this officer to present us with what he chooses. When the President requires an opinion of him, the constitution demands him to give it; so under the law, let him send his opinion in here when it is asked for. If any further power is given him, it will come to this at last: we, like the Parliament of Paris, shall meet to register what he dictates. Either these reports of the Secretary are to have weight, or they are not; if they are to have weight, the House acts under a foreign influence, which is altogether improper and impolitic; if they are to have no weight, we impose a useless duty upon the officer, and such as is no mark of our wisdom.

Mr. AMES hoped the subject might be treated with candor and liberality; he supposed the objections were made on those principles, and therefore required a serious answer. The worthy gentleman who first expressed his aversion to the clause seemed to be apprehensive that the power of reporting plans by the Secretary would be improper, because it appeared to him to interfere with the legislative duty of the House, which the House ought not to relinquish.

Whenever it is a question, Mr. Speaker, said he, whether this House ought, or ought not, to establish offices to exercise a part of the power of either branch of the Government, there are two points which I take into consideration, in order to lead my mind to a just decision; first, whether the proposed disposition is useful; and, second, whether it can be safely guarded from abuse. Now I take it, sir, that the House by their order for bringing in a bill to establish the Treasury Department in this way, have determined the point of utility; or, have they erred in adopting that opinion, I will slightly make an inquiry, How does it tend to general utility? The Secretary is presumed to acquire the best knowledge of the subject of finance of any member of the community. Now, if this House is to act on the best knowledge of circumstances, it seems to follow logically that the House must obtain evidence from that officer; the best way of doing this will be publicly from the officer himself, by making it his duty to furnish us with it. It will not be denied, sir, that this officer will be better acquainted with his business than other people can be. It lies within his department to have a comprehensive view of the state of the public revenues and expenditures. He will, by his superintending power over the collection, be able to discover abuses, if any, in that department, and to form the most eligible plan to remedy or prevent the evil. From his information respecting money transactions, he may be able to point out the best mode for supporting the public credit; indeed, these seem to me to be the great objects of his appointment.

Mr. LIVERMORE.--I shall vote for striking out the clause, because I conceive it essentially necessary so to do. The power of originating money bills within these walls, I look upon as a sacred deposit which we may neither violate nor divest ourselves of, although at first view it may appear of little importance who shall form a plan for the improvement of the revenue. Although every information tending to effect this great object may be gratefully received by this House, yet it behoves us to consider to what this clause may lead, and where it may terminate. Might it not, by construction, be said that the Secretary of the Treasury has the sole right of digesting and reporting plans for the improvement of the revenue? This construction may appear a little extraordinary, but it is not more so than some constructions heretofore put upon other words; but however extraordinary it may be, it may take place, and I think the best way to avoid it, will be to leave out the words altogether. It is certainly improper that any person, not expressly intrusted by our constituents with the privilege of taking their money, should direct the quantum and the manner in which to take it.

Mr. SEDGWICK.--If the principle prevails for curtailing this part of the Secretary's duty, we shall lose the advantages which the proposed system was intended to acquire. The improvement and management of the revenue is a subject that must be investigated by a man of abilities and indefatigable industry, if we mean to have our business advantageously done. If honorable gentlemen will for a moment consider the peculiar circumstances of this country, the means of information attainable by the individual members of this House, and compare them with the object they have to pursue, they will plainly perceive the necessity of calling to their aid the advantages resulting from an establishment like the one contemplated in the bill; if they weigh these circumstances carefully, their objections, I trust, will vanish.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--A proper jealousy for the liberty of the people is commendable in those who are appointed and sworn to be its faithful guardians; but when this spirit is carried so far as to lose sight of its object, and instead of leading to avoid, urges on to the precipice of ruin, we ought to be careful how we receive its impressions. So far is the present measure from being injurious to liberty, that it is consistent with the true interest and prosperity of the community. Are gentlemen apprehensive we shall be led by this officer to adopt plans we should otherwise reject? For my part, I have a better opinion of the penetration of the representation of the people than to dread any such visionary phantom.

Let us consider whether this power is essentially necessary to the Government. I take it to be conceded by the gentlemen, that it is absolutely so. They say they are willing to receive the information because it may be serviceable, but do not choose to have it communicated in this way. If the Secretary of the Treasury is the proper person to give the information, I can see no other mode of obtaining it that would be so useful. Do gentlemen mean that he shall give it piecemeal, by way of question and answer? This will tend more to mislead than to inform us. If we would judge upon any subject, it would be better to have it in one clear and complete view, than to inspect it by detachments; we should lose the great whole in the minutiæ, and, instead of a system, should present our constituents with a structure composed of discordant parts, counteracting and defeating the operation of each other's properties.

Mr. HARTLEY rose to express his sentiments, as he did on every occasion, with diffidence in his own abilities; but he looked upon the clause as both unsafe and inconsistent with the constitution. He thought the gentleman last up proved too much by his arguments; he proved that the House of Representatives was, in fact, unnecessary and useless; that one person could be a better judge of the means to improve and manage the revenue, and support the national credit, than the whole body of Congress. This kind of doctrine, Mr. Chairman, is indelicate in a republic, and strikes at the root of all legislation founded upon the great democratic principle of representation. It is true, mistakes, and very injurious ones, have been made on the subject of finance by some State Legislatures; but I would rather submit to this evil, than, by my voice, establish tenets subversive of the liberties of my country.

Notwithstanding what I have said, I am clearly of opinion it is necessary and useful to take measures for obtaining other information than what members can acquire in their characters as citizens; therefore, I am in favor of the present bill; but I think these words too strong. If it was modified so as to oblige him to have his plans ready for this House when they are asked for, I should be satisfied; but to establish a legal right in an officer to obtrude his sentiments perpetually on this body is disagreeable, and it is dangerous, inasmuch as the right is conveyed in words of doubtful import, and conveying powers exclusively vested by the constitution in this House.

Mr. GERRY expressed himself in favor of the object of the clause; that was, to get all the information possible for the purpose of improving the revenue, because he thought this information would be much required, if he judged from the load of public debt, and the present inability of the people to contribute largely towards its reduction.

He could not help observing, however, the great degree of importance they were giving this, and the other executive officers. If the doctrine of having prime and great ministers of state was once well established, he did not doubt but we should soon see them distinguished by a green or red ribbon, or other insignia of court favor and patronage. He wished gentlemen were aware of what consequences these things lead to, that they might exert a greater degree of caution.

The practice of Parliament in Britain is first to determine the sum they will grant, and then refer the subject to a Committee of Ways and Means: this might be a proper mode to be pursued in this House.

Do gentlemen, said he, consider the importance of the power they give the officer by the clause? Is it not part of our legislative authority? And does not the constitution expressly declare that the House solely shall exercise the power of originating revenue bills? Now, what is meant by reporting plans? It surely includes the idea of originating money bills, that is, a bill for improving the revenue, or, in other words, for bringing revenue into the treasury. For if he is to report plans, they ought to be reported in a proper form, and complete. This is giving an indirect voice in legislative business to an executive officer. If this be not the meaning of the clause, let gentlemen say what is, and to what extent it shall go; but if my construction is true, we are giving up the most essential privilege vested in us by the constitution. But what does this signify? The officer is responsible, and we are secure. This responsibility is made an argument in favor of every extension of power. I should be glad to understand the term. Gentlemen say the Secretary of the Treasury is responsible for the information he gives the House--in what manner does this responsibility act? Suppose he reports a plan for improving the revenue, by a tax which he thinks judicious, and one that will be agreeable to the people of the United States; but he happens to be deceived in his opinion, that his tax is obnoxious, and excites a popular clamor against the minister--what is the advantage of his responsibility? Nothing. Few men deserve punishment for the error of opinion; all that could be done would be to repeal the law, and be more cautious in future in depending implicitly on the judgment of a man who had led us into an impolitic measure. Suppose the revenue should fall short of his estimate, is he responsible for the balance? This will be carrying the idea further than any Government hitherto has done. What then is the officer to be responsible for, which should induce the House to vest in him such extraordinary powers?

Mr. LAWRENCE.--I do not see consequences so dangerous as some gentlemen seem to apprehend; nor did they appear to them, I believe, when the subject was last under consideration. I recollect, Mr. Chairman, that some difficulty was made about establishing this office, because it was feared we could not find men of sufficient abilities to fill it. The duties were then properly deemed of a high and important nature, and enumerated as those proposed in the bill. It was supposed by an honorable gentleman, that the powers here expressed might be lodged in a board, because an individual was incompetent to undertake the whole. But now we have the wonderful sagacity of discovering, that if an individual is appointed, he will have capacity to form plans for improving the revenue in such an advantageous manner, as to supersede the necessity of having the representatives of the people consulted on the business: he will not only perform the usual duties of a Treasury Board, but be adequate to all purposes of legislation. I appeal to the gentleman for his usual candor on this occasion, which will assure us that he has wire-drawn his arguments.

Mr. MADISON.--After hearing and weighing the various observations of gentlemen, I am at a loss to see where the danger lies. These are precisely the words used by the former Congress, on two occasions, one in 1783, the other in a subsequent ordinance, which established the Revenue Board. The same power was also annexed to the office of Superintendent of Finance, but I never yet heard that any inconvenience or danger was experienced from the regulation; perhaps, if the power had been more fully and frequently exercised, it might have contributed more to the public good.

There is a small probability, though it is but small, that an officer may derive a weight from this circumstance, and have some degree of influence upon the deliberations of the Legislature; but compare the danger likely to result from this clause, with the danger and inconvenience of not having well-formed and digested plans, and we shall find infinitely more to apprehend. Inconsistent, unproductive, and expensive schemes, will be more injurious to our constituents than the undue influence which the well-digested plans of a well-informed officer can have. From a bad administration of the Government, more detriment will arise than from any other source. The want of information has occasioned much inconvenience and unnecessary burthens under some of the State Governments. Let it be our care to avoid those rocks and shoals in our political voyage, which have injured, and nearly proved fatal to, many of our cotemporary navigators.

A gentleman has asked, what is meant by responsibility? I will answer him. There will be responsibility in point of reputation, at least a responsibility to the public opinion with respect to his abilities; and supposing there is no personal responsibility, yet we know that men of talents and ability take as much care for the preservation of their reputation as any other species of property of which they are possessed. If a superior degree of wisdom is expected to be displayed by them, they take pains to give proofs that they possess it in the most unequivocal manner; this of itself will ensure us no small degree of exertion.

With respect to originating money bills, the House has the sole right to do it; but if the power of reporting plans can be construed to imply the power of originating revenue bills, the constitution is inconsistent with itself, in giving the President authority to recommend such measures as he may think expedient or necessary; but the construction is too unnatural to require further investigation.

I have admitted there is a small probability of a small inconvenience, but I do not think it any more an argument against the clause, than it would be an argument against having windows in a house, that it is possible the wind and the rain may get in through the crevices.

Mr. STONE was not afraid of giving the officer the power of reporting plans, because he was sure Congress would, in every case, decide upon their own judgment. A future Congress would not pay such a deference, even to their predecessors, as to follow in their footsteps, unless they were convinced of the good policy of their measures. He thought if the House wanted to make use of the information acquired by the Secretary, they ought to give him notice of their intention; consequently, something of this kind was proper in the bill.

Mr. SHERMAN thought the principle held up by the clause, was absolutely necessary to be received. It was of such a nature as to force itself upon them; therefore it was in vain to attempt to elude it by subterfuge. It was owing to the great abilities of a financier, that France had been able to make the exertions we were witnesses of a few years ago, without embarrassing the nation. This able man, after considerably improving the national revenue, was displaced; but such was the importance of the officer, that he has been restored again.

Mr. _Baldwin_.--I do not see what we are guarding against by striking out the words, unless gentlemen mean to go so far as to introduce a prohibitory clause, and declare that the Secretary of the Treasury shall be restrained from digesting or preparing plans for the improvement of the revenue. If there is any evil in having him attend to this branch of the business, I cannot see how to avoid it. Suppose the officer is a bad man, and there are others like him in this House, (for this must be what the gentlemen are afraid of;) and suppose he has prepared a scheme for peculation, which he hopes to get adopted by making dupes of the honest part; how are you to hinder it from being brought forward? Cannot his friends introduce it as their own, by making and seconding a motion for that purpose? Will you restrain him from having access to the members out of doors? And cannot he infuse his dangerous and specious arguments and information into them as well in the closet, as by a public and official communication? But, Mr. Chairman, can this House, or if it can, will it prevent any of their constituents from bringing before them plans for the relief of grievances or oppressions? Every individual of the community can bring business before us by petition, memorial, or remonstrance, provided it be done in a decent manner. How then do you propose to restrain the Secretary of the Treasury?

I think the clause is very well as it stands, and shall therefore be against the amendment.

Mr. PAGE'S motion for striking out the clause being put and negatived:

The question on Mr. FITZSIMON'S motion to amend the bill, by striking out the word report, and inserting prepare, was taken and carried by a great majority.

After which the House adjourned.

FRIDAY, June 26.

A number of the members attending the interesting conference which to-day took place with the Senate on the impost and tonnage bills, no business was done in this House.

_Saturday_, June 27.

_Revenue Bill._

Mr. _Boudinot_, from the managers on the part of this House in the conference with the Senate on the subject of the amendments to the Impost Bill, reported that the conference had agreed to pass the bill as amended by the Senate, with some additional amendments, viz: the duty on distilled spirits of Jamaica proof, to be reduced from fifteen cents to ten cents per gallon. The duty on all other spirits, to be reduced from twelve to eight cents per gallon. The duty on beer, ale, porter, or cider, imported in casks, from eight to five cents per gallon. The duty on beer imported in bottles, from twenty-five to twenty cents per gallon. The duty on coal, from three to two cents per bushel.

MONDAY, July 13.

_Western Lands._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair.

Mr. SCOTT requested that the report of the committee on the Western Territory might be read, which was read accordingly, as follows:

_Resolved_, That it is the opinion of this committee, that
an act of Congress should pass for establishing a Land
Office, and to regulate the terms of granting vacant and
unappropriated lands in the Western Territory.

Mr. SCOTT.--In endeavoring, sir, to open the interesting subject now before you, I shall avoid the repetition of those ideas which I threw out on a former occasion, as far as my memory will serve me, and the nature of the subject will permit.

This subject, sir, will appear of great magnitude in point of interest, if we consider the extent of the territory; I think I shall not be far beyond the mark, if I say it is one thousand miles long by five hundred broad; nor if I say it is sufficient to contain two millions of farms; nevertheless, for greater caution, say it will contain one million, (which is notoriously and greatly within the real contents,) and that each of these farms may be peopled by six souls, they will amount to six millions of inhabitants, double the number of the present inhabitants of the United States. From this view, it is an object of great concern. It will appear also an object of concern, if we contemplate the climate, the soil, and the waters of that country; consider that it lies in the heart of the temperate zone; its soil infinitely more rich and more fertile than any in the Atlantic States; its waters pure and good--in a word, it is such a territory as must command inhabitants, and will be peopled. Its situation in the middle of our continent, gives the climate a salubrity that accommodates it to the emigrants from both Northern and Southern States. It is meeting them on a middle ground, softening the harsh restrictions of the rugged North, and breathing bland the zephyr grateful to the sun-scorched South. In short, it is such as gives to all who have seen it the utmost satisfaction--it is both healthy and agreeable.

It may perhaps be objected, that the measure now proposed will lead or tend to a depopulation of the Atlantic States, and therefore ought not to be adopted. This is a circumstance I by no means wish. I am as far from desiring a depopulation of the Atlantic shores, as I am from fearing it on this ground. I am confident it will not operate in any considerable degree to bring about that event; but if it should be thought it would, that could be no solid objection against the measure. Whilst the desire of emigration continues, and lands are to be procured, settlers will find their way into that territory; nor is it in the power of Congress to withhold lands altogether, because they are to be got of others on better terms. There is superior encouragement held out to the people settling on the other side of the river Mississippi, where the soil is fertile, and the climate equally agreeable. In proof of this assertion, I will read to the committee the translation of a kind of proclamation issued by the Governor of the Spanish posts at the Illinois. [This paper contains an invitation to all persons inclined to settle in the Western country, offering as inducements, lands without charge, exemptions from taxes, protection in civil and religious liberties, besides provision and the implements of husbandry.] After this, Mr. S. proceeded: Now, sir, if Congress fear to sell their lands lest it tend to depopulate the Atlantic States, what must they apprehend from propositions like these? They will certainly have all the effect which encouragement from this quarter can have. It may be said, that Americans will not venture to live under the Spanish Government, or settle a Spanish colony. To this it may be replied, that when people, from their necessities or inclinations, are determined to emigrate, in order to mitigate their distresses, they think little of the form of government; all they care for is relief from their present or approaching wants and troubles.

Nobody will emigrate from the Atlantic States but a certain description of men, and they will go whether you hold out this encouragement to them or not; they will pay little regard to Congressional restrictions. And here let me make one remark, drawn from my own observation. The forming settlements in a wilderness upon the frontiers, between the savages and the least populated of the civilized parts of the United States, requires men of enterprising, violent, nay, discontented and turbulent spirits. Such always are our first settlers in the ruthless and savage wild; they serve as pioneers to clear the way for the more laborious and careful farmer. These characters are already in that country by thousands, and their number is daily increasing, and will continue to increase; for congenial spirits will assimilate maugre all our endeavors to the contrary. But how will you prevent them? I should be glad to see a plan for hemming in the emigration to that territory; I think the thing wholly impracticable, therefore it becomes the immediate interest of Congress, to direct the emigration to a proper point; direct it to their own territory, rather than be inactive spectators of its silent, though rapid course to the Spanish and British dependencies; rather sell your lands and get something for them, than let your citizens leave your dominions. By improving a part, you add to the value of the remainder; their population will produce a hardy race of husbandmen and warriors, always at the command of the United States, to support and defend your liberty and property. These being facts, I leave it to the wisdom of the House to draw the inference.

I will make one further remark, with respect to the encouragement or discouragement of emigration. Suppose it was in the power of Congress to stop the course of the impetuous current, which has already won its way through insuperable obstructions, and spread itself over the fertile lands of the Ohio. I ask, with perfect security, if it is not such an act of contumacy, and inconsistency with the fundamental principles of the Government, that Congress could not adopt it? Consider that many of your citizens are destitute of the comforts, nay, the common necessaries of life, without a prospect of providing for the subsistence of themselves and families: I ask, would Congress prevent the emigration of such persons if they could? I think not; they would not act as kind protecting fathers to their people if they did. I presume this would be too serious an objection for any man to face, with a restraining proposition. I question if any man would be hardy enough to point out a class of citizens by name, that ought to be the servants of the community; yet, unless that is done, to what class of the people could you direct such a law? But if you passed such an act, it would be tantamount to saying that there is some class which must remain here, and by law must be obliged to serve the others, for such wages as they please to give.

This being the case, let us make the best of liberty, our people, and our land. Your citizens, I tell you, are already there by thousands; they are going by thousands more, and are every hour growing up into consequence. They never expect to return into the Atlantic States; plant them in your soil, add this wealth of population to your own, and form an empire illustrious as it is extended. Remember, ye sages of my country, an historic truth recorded for your instruction, that empire has been slowly, but invariably, moving from East to West; emigration has uniformly receded in that direction, from the time that our common parents quitted the garden of Eden, till the present hour; nor doubt but it will continue to pursue that course, as long as there are lands to be inhabited.

Much will depend upon the energy and force of the Government established in that country; it ought to be such as will furnish sufficient power for its own internal purposes, and also to secure it to the Union. But that is not the only tie by which its union is held. That country is attached to the Atlantic States by its natural situation. To be convinced of this truth, nothing more is necessary than to look upon the chart: all the commerce of that country must come through the States upon the sea-coast. We know, at Pittsburg, that we are a thousand miles nearer to the market than settlers at the mouth of the Ohio river. When we export our produce by that and the Mississippi, we know we can get easier home with our returns by the way of Philadelphia, than the others can by turning up and stemming the current of the Mississippi. Therefore, the imports for all that territory must come through the United States. From these considerations, I conclude it would be madness in the extreme for them to think of a separation, unless they were driven to it by a fatal necessity; they will be too sensible of its ill effects ever to attempt it.

But suppose, for a moment, that they break off from the Union, and even become our enemies, it would be good policy in us to get as much as we can from them first, especially as they are disposed to give it us; let us make them extinguish part of our national debt before they leave us. The soil and climate of that country, as I said before, will be great inducements for emigrants to settle there. If they were to break off, they would know how to get money enough from the sale of the territory to support their Government, without any other resource whatever. If I, as a resident in that country, had the remotest view of a separation from the Atlantic States, I should be sorry to see Congress sell an acre of that land; for selling it, in that case, would be neither more nor less than preventing us from putting the money into our pockets when we became independent. If they meditate independency, the most likely way to make them so, will be to let their lands alone, in order to supply them with funds sufficient to support them in the measure. If they are sold, it will not be in their power.

I apprehend it will be found that a Land Office will effect these objects better than any other plan that can be devised. If this should be effectual, and no doubt can be entertained but it will, the inhabitants of the United States cannot, with a good grace, be called upon for heavy taxes in order to pay the interest on a debt which can be so easily and properly extinguished. Every individual who contemplates the subject, will see how much it is his interest to buy a few dollars in certificates, and purchase a piece of land with them, which will annihilate the debt, and prevent the demand for taxes to pay the interest; besides, it will remain as a security to reimburse the principal to the proprietor, as the population of the country extends; but, at all events, it would be but advancing four or five years' interest, and the whole debt would be absorbed.

If we mean to sell our lands for ready money, or mean to trust, we have a superior advantage. It is more probable that the necessitous person who wants the land for the subsistence of himself and family, will labor harder to procure a property of this kind, and secure it for himself, than the speculator who never means to pay a farthing until he has received it from the sale of the land; besides, the necessitous person is better able to buy of Government than of the speculator, because he can get it cheaper. The purchasers of large tracts retail out their land to this class of men, and certainly charge them something for their trouble. But if we sell on credit, as under the Proprietary Government was the practice in Pennsylvania, those who take out small quantities get their land surveyed, and set themselves down; they cultivate the ground, and erect buildings for their own accommodation. Land, in this improved state, furnishes a better security to Government for any arrearage of purchase money, than a large tract sold on speculation, and which lies in the same state of nature as it did when it was disposed of, perhaps adding thereto the expense of making the survey. If the land must revert to Congress at last for default of payment, we get nothing in the latter case; whereas, when sold in lots, if a man has settled himself down, and paid for his warrant and survey, which costs the Union nothing, but for the first price and interest thereon, it must strike every gentleman's mind that it would be disagreeable, after a man had made a settlement for three or four years, to have to turn out. Rather than do this, he would make every exertion to discharge the price: if his situation was so wretched as not to furnish the means, some of his neighbors, on such security, might befriend him; but at any rate Government would be secure. By this argument, I do not mean to insist that Congress should sell their lands on trust; they may do so, or sell for ready pay, as their wisdom may think eligible. I shall be satisfied either way.

I think the convenience of the people is a subject not unworthy of being taken into view. My plan proposes that they should be able to perfect their titles on the spot. I fear not the objection which has been raised. It may be said, the titles ought not to be completed until it was done immediately under the eye of Congress. Let this be as it may, I will make one remark: can we not have every tie, every check, and security upon these officers that we have upon the collectors of the revenue? I think there is as much room for confidence in the one case as in the other. We can take care that the Secretary of the Land Office shall send in his accounts of patents and warrants. I think we may depend here upon a true return.

The Receiver of the office shall take nothing but public securities, which are not quite so great a temptation to embezzlement or illicit practices as money. The Surveyor will be a check upon both. I think the gentlemen employed in this business cannot be of very trifling character. In short, this department may be as well checked and balanced as any other; the expense of it will be nothing, because the officer may be supported out of the fees. This being the case, I shall conclude with moving that the committee adopt the resolution reported by the committee, and recommend it to the House to appoint a select committee to bring in a bill accordingly.

Mr. FITZSIMONS asked if it would not be better to settle all the principles of the bill first, that the select committee might not lose their labor, as had been once or twice experienced, for want of this precaution.

He was in favor of some measure of this kind, though he had some doubts of the necessity there was supposed to be of establishing a Land Office.

The question was now taken on the resolution, and agreed to.

_Compensation of the President, &c._

Mr. VINING wished to call the attention of the House to a business he apprehended not very lengthy; it was the report of a committee on the subject of compensation to be made to the President, Vice President, the members of the Senate and House of Representatives, for their services; he wished gentlemen to consider the situation of every one concerned in this business, themselves, and the continent at large. He hoped they would consent to take it up, and he flattered himself the discussion would not last longer than a day.

Mr. WHITE wished to go into a Committee of the Whole on the business.

Mr. FITZSIMONS did not like to enter upon a lengthy discussion of a point that was incapable of much elucidation by reasoning; he therefore was against going into a committee at this stage of the business. He observed, that the committee had reported something, and the members had been pretty generally consulted on the same. He hoped the House would despatch the business without delay or loss of time, if they were at all inclined to take it up.

Mr. WHITE thought it necessary to go into a committee, because there were a number of things mentioned, the reasons for which appeared to him very uncertain.

Mr. VINING said it was a subject of considerable delicacy, and he supposed very few gentlemen would be inclined to speak three or four times on a point; yet this was all the advantage gained by going into a committee. He was no more interested than others; every gentleman might judge of his own case, but after it had been before a committee of twelve, in order to get the fullest sense of the House upon the subject, he was inclined to receive it without so much circumlocution. He observed, that the business had originated in a Committee of the Whole, and it was unusual to recommit it without showing some reasons why.

Mr. WHITE gave up his motion for a Committee of the Whole, and said, before he consented to the report, he should be glad to know in what style it was expected that the President would live. He observed there was provision for the expenses of a house, furniture, secretaries, clerks, carriages and horses. Perhaps the sum proposed might be too much or too little. He should like to see an estimate of how much was necessary for keeping the table, the equipage, &c. before he decided. He hoped the committee would elucidate this subject.

There was another thing he wished to inquire of them. The Vice President's salary was charged at five thousand dollars; he could not conceive upon what principle that sum was reported. Did it bear a proportion to his services, or was it in proportion to what the members of the Senate and this House were to be allowed? There is nothing which obliges him to be attentive to his business. No doubt but the gentleman who holds that office at present will be regardful and diligent in executing the business assigned him; yet there is nothing to prevent the Vice President from residing at home and receiving his salary, without coming within the walls of the Senate room. The Union is obliged to support him; but I, said he, would make that support conditional; he should have a liberal provision while in public life, but no longer. As to delicacy, I know of none, sir, that ought to be used while we are in pursuit of the public good. I speak therefore with candor what are my sentiments on this subject. Other gentlemen, no doubt, do the same; but I am clearly for examining into the principles before I agree to the conclusion.

Mr. PAGE was sorry to see gentlemen spinning out the time to little purpose; certainly, after having the subject under consideration for nearly three months, they might be able to decide.

If this business was fixed, and gentlemen knew they were to have but moderate salaries, it might perhaps tend to make them more expeditious; but at all events, they ought to know the rate at which they attend, in order to regulate their expenses. To some it might be a matter of no concern, because they could bear every thing of this kind for a twelvemonth, without inconvenience; but they ought to consider the situation of others. We are, said he, keeping the President here without any provision for his support; but in this we may think ourselves right, because, in his patriotic ardor, his love for his country, he told us he was willing to pursue that illustrious example which he set during the period of our calamity; he refused compensation for his services. But the constitution requires that he shall receive a compensation, and it is our duty to provide it. We must also provide something for our own expenses, or it may reduce gentlemen not better prepared than I am to depend upon a friend for what the public ought to furnish.

Mr. VINING had said the subject was delicate, but he did not conceive there was any indelicacy in asking or answering questions on this or any other occasion, where the good of his country was concerned.

Mr. LAWRENCE did not know, whether the sum proposed was enough for the President or not; but according to the terms of the constitution, it ought to be granted as one sum, because he is to receive no other emolument whatever from the United States, or either of them. Now, if it is declared he shall receive twenty thousand dollars, and, exclusive of that sum, we make him an allowance for furniture, horses, carriages, &c., such an allowance is an emolument beyond the compensation contemplated in the constitution; but I have no objection to blend these sums together, declaring the whole to be the compensation required by the constitution. Besides, if we establish salaries for his secretaries and clerks, we establish them officers of the Government; this will be improper, because it infringes his right to employ a confidential person in the management of those concerns, for which the constitution has made him responsible. For these reasons, Mr. L. moved to strike out all that related to horses, carriages, furniture, &c.

Mr. SHERMAN thought it much better to give a net sum, because the President would then have no accounts to settle with the United States.

Mr. SEDGWICK considered this a constitutional question, and therefore thought it deserved serious investigation. The provision made in the report, for paying the expenses of enumerated articles, does not leave the President in the situation intended by the constitution, which was, that he should be independent of the Legislature, during his continuance in office; that he should have a compensation for his services, not to be increased or diminished during that period; but there is nothing that will prevent us from making further allowances, provided that the twenty thousand dollars is all that is given as a compensation. By this construction, one of the most salutary clauses in the constitution will be rendered nugatory. From these considerations, he was led to believe that the report was founded on unconstitutional principles.