Chapter XVIII: Introduction (17)

Mr. STONE proceeded. I feel myself unhappy to be obliged to address gentlemen, who are not disposed to attend to any thing I may say; but as gentlemen have chosen this time for discussing the subject, they will not think it improper in me to persist in detailing my ideas. When I was interrupted by the call to order, I was about to show the importance of the Potomac to the United States. Its waters afford a practical, safe, and short communication with the Ohio and Mississippi, beyond comparison preferable to the Susquehanna. If it is intended that the people settled upon those great rivers should communicate with the General Government, after ascending the former they must proceed a vast distance northward, up the Alleghany, against a rapid stream, before they can reach the Susquehanna. I am inclined to believe a land-carriage would be better than such a laborious round-about water communication. Now the Potomac, as I am informed, connects with the Youghiogheny, a river less rapid than the Alleghany, and is itself communicable with the Atlantic. In this case, the Potomac will be the highway for such vast quantities of wealth as to give every superiority; and, however we may determine at this day, it will not be long before the seat of Government must be carried thither. The vast population that is extending itself through the Western country requires that the Government should take a position favorable to its convenience; because new settlements at a vast distance from the old are more exposed to temptation than others; but in the present case, it is proper for us to guard against the operation of a foreign country, which seems to be forming settlements near our frontiers to rival ours. It may be the more necessary, inasmuch as we ought to keep the boundary line distinct between the Spaniards and savages, as I fear, do what we will, we run the greatest risk of entering into a quarrel with them; for, it is well known, that emigrants, in forming new settlements, are not much concerned about an ascertainment of jurisdiction; they are generally bold, enterprising spirits, who feel some aversion to strict government; it is therefore necessary that the Government should approach toward them, and be placed in such situation as would give it the greatest possible influence over them. Beside their contiguity to a rival nation, they are independent in their condition; they want hardly any thing this country can give; their soil is rich and fertile; their exports will furnish them with every foreign article from the southward which they can require. Their interests are more strongly connected with the Southern States than the Southern States are with the Eastern. The advantages of this Government are felt, in a peculiar manner, by the mercantile and commercial States; the agricultural States have not the same strong reasons for maintaining the Union. Hence we may apprehend that the Western country may be inclined, as it advances its importance, to drop off. The Susquehanna is no bond by which to hold them; its direction is more northern than westerly. Upon the whole, I am inclined to believe that it would not give general satisfaction at the present day; and the inequality would daily grow more striking, until we should be compelled to remove again to where there was a probability of finding a centre of territory as well as population. I have thrown out these ideas in a crude manner, but gentlemen have forced me to it by their urgency to take the question; I could wish to be allowed time for further discussion, and I believe it would be no ill sacrifice of a day, if we were to put off the determination till to-morrow.

Mr. LEE observed, that since gentlemen would not admit of a moment's delay; since they seemed to declare, that they had settled the matter without giving an opportunity for full discussion; since the House were hurried to a decision on a point that involved the welfare of the community, duty to his country, duty to the better half of the territory of the United States, called on him to come forward with another proposition.

He then moved to strike out the words "east bank of the Susquehanna," and to insert a clause to this effect; that, whereas the banks of the Potomac united all the aforesaid advantages, with fertility of soil, salubrity of climate, &c. Resolved, That the permanent seat of Government ought to be fixed somewhere on the banks of the said river.

He flattered himself that these two rival places would be considered with an attention that would do honor to the House; that their several advantages would be fully compared, and that such a decision would result as would be for the lasting benefit of the United States.

He then stated at large the comparative advantages of the Potomac; its great and increasing improvements; the extent of its navigation; its direct communication with the Western country, and its easy communication with the Eastern and Southern States.

The House, he said, were now to determine whether regard was to be had to the people of the Western Territory, to the greater portion of the territory of the Union; in point of climate, it was extremely salubrious; in fertility of soil, it was exceeded by no country on earth. Thither would emigrants flock from all quarters.

He asked whether this Government was intended for a temporary or a lasting one? Whether it was to be a fleeting vision, or to continue for ages? He hoped the result would proclaim that the Government was calculated for perpetuity; and that the common interests of the country had been consulted. If that was done, the Government would be removed to the Potomac; if not, we should stop short of it; and what would be the consequence? He said he was averse to sound alarms, or introduce terrors into the House; but if they were well founded, he thought it his duty. It was well known with what difficulty the constitution was adopted by the State of Virginia. It was then said, that there would be confederacies of the States east of Pennsylvania, which would destroy the Southern States; that they would unite their councils in discussing questions relative to their particular interests, and the Southern States would be disregarded. To these suspicions, it was answered, no! It was contended that the magnanimous policy, arising from mutual interests and common dangers would unite all the States, and make them pursue objects of general good. But if it should be found that there were such confederacies as were predicted, that the Northern States did consult their partial interests, and form combinations to support them, without regarding their Southern brethren, they would be alarmed, and the faith of all south of the Potomac would be shaken. It would be shown to them, that what had been predicted by the enemies to the constitution had come to pass; that the Northern States had not waited till the Government was organized before they sacrificed the Southern people to their own interests.

Let the seat of Government be fixed where it may, Virginia had not solicited Congress to place the seat of Government in her State. She only contended, that the interests of the Southern and Western country should be consulted; and he declared that these interests would be sacrificed, if Congress fixed upon any place but the Potomac. The greater part of Virginia was distant from that river. Many parts were not nearer than New Jersey. She wished not to have the seat on the Potomac but for the general good; it was not for the benefit of that State, but for the benefit of the Union.

Mr. LAWRENCE said, it was improper and unnecessary to hold out terrors to the fancy of members. The true way to convince them, was to address their understandings. He was certain there was no dangerous confederacy which the gentleman had talked of; and believed the conduct of the Northern States would bear the strictest scrutiny; that, if probed to the bottom, it would be found fair and candid. He remembered in the debate upon the Tonnage bill, a gentleman from Virginia observed, that could the moderate and equal policy of that day's proceedings have been foreseen in the convention of Virginia, many objections that were there produced against the constitution would have been thereby obviated.

He trusted, that, in conducting the business before them, gentlemen could find no cause, eventually, to entertain different sentiments from what he then delivered.

Mr. MADISON.--I acknowledge, that, on a former day, I made the observation alluded to with singular complacency. I said, I had found a moderation and liberality prevailing here, which I sincerely believed, if foreseen in the convention of Virginia, would have obviated a very powerful objection to the adoption of the Federal constitution. But, give me leave now to say, that if a Prophet had risen in that body, and brought the declarations and proceedings of this day into view, that I as firmly believe Virginia might not have been a part of the Union at this moment.

A motion was now made for the committee to rise, and several gentlemen said, they wished it to prevail, in order that an opportunity might be afforded for a fuller discussion.

Mr. SEDGWICK hoped the committee would not rise. Will it be contended, that the majority shall not govern; and shall the minority, because they cannot carry their points, accuse the House of want of candor? Are we to be told, that an important State would not have joined the Union, had they known what would have been the proceedings of this House. Gentlemen have brought forward this business themselves; they have precipitated the House into it. We prayed, we supplicated for time; and now gentlemen, from some causes not explained, wish to postpone the matter, in order to have time to deliberate. He believed that a deliberation of six weeks would not alter a single opinion, and therefore it was not proper to consume the public time uselessly.

Mr. MADISON.--When I alluded to the proceedings of this day, I contemplated the manner in which the business was conducted; and though I acknowledge that a majority ought to govern, yet they have no authority to deprive the minority of a constitutional right; they have no authority to debar us the right of free debate. An important and interesting question being under consideration, we ought to have time allowed for its discussion. Facts have been stated on one side, and members ought to be indulged on the other with an opportunity of collecting and ascertaining other facts. We have a right to bring forward all the arguments which we think can, and ought to have an influence on the decision. It is unusual, on a partial discussion, even of questions of inferior magnitude, to decide in the course of a single day. How, then, can gentlemen reconcile their conduct of this day to the liberality they have hitherto shown? This manner of proceeding would mark a genius in this body which will contradict the expectations of its warmest friends. I hope nothing will be fixed by a hasty determination. I said before, and repeat it again, that I wish to make some observations on what has been advanced, for which at present there is not time. But, if there was, I do not wish to address a determined and silent majority. No, sir, if this be the temper of to-day, let me appeal to a more favorable temper to-morrow. If gentlemen refuse this appeal, I must submit; but I will, to the last moment, assert my right, and remonstrate against a precipitate decision.

Mr. BURKE observed, that the Northern States had had a fortnight to manage this matter, and would not now allow the Southern States a day. What was the conduct of gentlemen? A league has been formed between the Northern States and Pennsylvania.

Mr. FITZSIMONS interrupted Mr. BURKE, and denied the assertion, as it respected Pennsylvania.

Mr. BURKE then proceeded, and said that the Eastern members had combined with some other States, he could not positively say which, but the first information that was furnished was given this morning, every gentleman had heard it as well as himself, but that had nothing to do with his object; he wanted time to get information; and called on gentlemen, for the honor of the House, to comply with this request.

Mr. WADSWORTH said, he rejoiced to hear the gentlemen calling for time, and crying out fair play. He remembered when he entreated the gentleman who spoke last, and others, not to precipitate themselves into this situation; his entreaties had been of no avail. Knowing that the pride of a majority was one of those things to which he had to submit, he, with all the New England members, solicited for time. With respect to bargaining, he believed that it would reflect no honor on either side of the House. He said he must either give his vote now, or submit to more bargaining. He was willing that the whole business of bargaining should be exposed; he would not excuse himself; he did not dare to go to the Potomac. He feared that the whole of New England would consider the Union as destroyed. Since the matter had been so prematurely brought on, since members had been forced, and, as it were, dragged by the throat to this business, he hoped it was now finished.

The question was now put, on the rising of the committee, and carried: Whereupon the committee rose and reported progress, and then the House adjourned.

THURSDAY, September 4.

_Seat of Government._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the Resolution for establishing a permanent Seat of Government, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair.

Mr. STONE wished to hear the sentiments of the gentleman who first brought forward this business: he expected to derive some advantage from that gentleman's knowledge of the country, which, he presumed, was pretty accurate, as it was derived from actual observation.

After waiting some time,

Mr. STONE repeated his request, under an apprehension that he had not the honor of being heard by the worthy gentleman.

Mr. GOODHUE rose and said, he had given his sentiments yesterday, but, if the gentleman desired it, he was ready to repeat them.

Mr. STONE said, he addressed his request to the gentleman from Pennsylvania.

Mr. SCOTT.--I understood the gentleman so, and I have no objection to giving my sentiments on the occasion. The resolution I laid on the table has been honored with the vote of a majority of the committee. It contains such principles as, I believe, ought to govern in the settlement of the grand question: they have declared, that they mean to be governed by these principles, and this is a declaration to the world that their hearts are good. What may follow in consequence of that resolution, cannot impeach the motive, it can only prove, that our heads are uninformed; an error of the head is pardonable, but an error of the heart is not easily forgiven.

Whether the spot which has been moved is the right spot or not, seems to be the matter under inquiry. I had prepared myself with documents, which I should have produced had they been needed, to prove, that the State I have the honor to represent involves, within its limits the centre of wealth and population of the United States, taking the sea-coast for a guide; for all that has been said of the importance of the Western country, has not prevailed on me to imagine, that all the vacant territory should be taken into view, the same as the settled and cultivated parts; my resolution had no other idea but that the Atlantic States should consent to go as near that territory as their convenience would allow. I am convinced that going further than would suit the Atlantic States would injure the Western country itself.

Mr. MADISON said, if this delay should not have produced any alteration in the sentiments of the gentlemen, it will at least soften that hard decision which seems to threaten the friends of the Potomac. He hoped that all would concur in the great principle on which they ought to conduct and decide this business; an equal attention to the rights of the community. No government, he said, not even the most despotic, could, beyond a certain point, violate that idea of justice and equal right which prevailed in the mind of the community. In Republican Governments, justice and equality form the basis of the system; and perhaps the structure can rest on no other that the wisdom of man can devise. In a Federal Republic, give me leave to say, it is even more necessary and proper, that a sacred regard should be paid to these considerations. For beyond the sense of the community at large, which has its full agency in such a system, no such Government can act with safety. The Federal ingredient involves local distinctions, which not only produce local jealousies, but give, at the same time, a greater local capacity to support, and insist upon equitable demands. In a Confederacy of States, in which the people operate, in one respect as citizens, and in another as forming political communities, the local Governments will ever possess a keener sense and capacity, to take advantage of those powers, on which the protection of local rights depends. If these great rights be the basis of republics, and if there be a double necessity of attending to them in a Federal Republic, it is further to be considered, that there is no one right, of which the people can judge with more ease and certainty, and of which they will judge with more jealousy, than of the establishment of the permanent seat of Government; and I am persuaded, that however often this subject may be discussed in the representative body, or however the attention of the committee may be drawn to it, the observations I have made will be more and more verified. We see the operation of this sentiment fully exemplified in what has taken place in the several States. In every instance where the seat of Government has been placed in an uncentral position, we have seen the people struggling to place it where it ought to be. In some instances they have not yet succeeded, but I believe they will succeed in all. In many they have actually gained their point.

With respect, however, to the Federal Government, there is one consideration that shows, in a peculiar manner, the necessity and policy of paying a strict attention to this principle. One of the greatest objections which has been made by the opponents of the system, which has been allowed most weight by its friends, is the extent of the United States. It has been asserted by some, and almost feared by others, that within so great a space, no free Government can exist. I hope and trust, that the opinion is erroneous; but, at the same time, I acknowledge it to have a certain degree of force, and it is incumbent on those who wish well to the Union, to diminish this inconvenience as much as possible. The way to diminish it, is to place the Government in that spot which will be least removed from every part of the empire. Carry it to a remote position, and it will be equivalent to an extension of our limits; and if our limits are already extended so far as warrants, in any degree, the apprehension before mentioned, we ought to take care not to extend them further.

The seat of Government is of great importance, if you consider the diffusion of wealth that proceeds from this source. I presume that the expenditures which will take place, where the Government will be established by those who are immediately concerned in its administration, and by others who may resort to it, will not be less than half a million dollars a year. It is to be regretted that those who may be most convenient to the centre should enjoy this advantage to a higher degree than others; but the inequality is an evil imposed by necessity; we diminish it as we place the source from which those emanations of wealth are to proceed as near the centre as possible.

If we consider, sir, the effects of Legislative power on the aggregate community, we must feel equal inducements to look for the centre, in order to find the proper seat of Government. Those who are most adjacent to the seat of Legislation will always possess advantages over others. An earlier knowledge of the laws, a greater influence in enacting them, better opportunities for anticipating them, and a thousand other circumstances, will give a superiority to those who are thus situated. If it were possible to promulgate our laws, by some instantaneous operation, it would be of less consequence in that point of view where the Government might be placed; but if, on the contrary, time is necessary for this purpose, we ought, as far as possible, to put every part of the community on a level.

If we consider the influence of the Government in its Executive Department, there is no less reason to conclude that it ought to be placed in the centre of the Union. It ought to be in a situation to command information relative to every part of the Union, to watch every conjuncture, to seize every circumstance that can be improved. The Executive eye ought to be placed where it can best see the dangers which may threaten, and the Executive arm, whence it may be extended most effectually to the protection of every part. Perhaps it is peculiarly necessary, that, in looking for the position, we should keep our eye as much as possible towards our Western borders; for a long time dangers will be most apt to assail that quarter of the Union.

He was sure, that if justice required us to take any one position in preference to another, we had every inducement, both of interest and of prudence to fix on the Potomac, as most satisfactory to our Western brethren. It is impossible to reflect a moment on the possible severance of that branch of the Union without seeing the mischiefs which such an event must create. The area of the United States divided into two equal parts, will leave, perhaps, one half on the west side of the Alleghany Mountains. From the fertility of the soil, the fineness of the climate, and every thing that can favor a growing population, we may suppose the settlement will go on with every degree of rapidity which our imagination can conceive.

If the calculation be just, that we double in twenty-five years, we shall speedily behold an astonishing mass of people on the Western waters. Whether this great mass will form a permanent part of the confederacy, or whether it will be separated into an alien, a jealous and a hostile people, may depend on the system of measures that is shortly to be taken. The difference, he observed, between considering them in the light of fellow-citizens, bound to us by a common affection, obeying common laws, pursuing a common good, and considering them in the other light, presents one of the most interesting questions that can occupy an American mind. Instead of peace and friendship, we shall have rivalship and enmity; instead of being a great people, invulnerable on all sides, and without the necessity of those military establishments which other nations require, we shall be driven into the same expensive and dangerous means of defence. We shall be obliged to lay burthens on the people, to support establishments which, sooner or later, may prove fatal to their liberties. It is incumbent on us, if we wish to act the part of magnanimous legislators, or patriotic citizens, to consider well, when we are about to take a step of such vast importance, that it be directed by the views he had described; we must consider what is just, what is equal, and what is satisfactory.

On a candid view of the two rivers, he flattered himself that the seat which would most correspond with the public interest would be found on the banks of the Potomac. It was proper that we should have some regard to the centre of territory; if that was to have weight, he begged leave to say, that there was no comparison between the two rivers. He defied any gentleman to cast his eye in the most cursory manner over a map and say that the Potomac is not much nearer this centre than any part of the Susquehanna. If we measure from the banks of the Potomac to the most eastern parts of the United States, it is less distant than to the most southern. If we measure this great area diagonally, the Potomac will have the advantage. If you draw a line perpendicularly to the direction of the Atlantic coast, we shall find that it will run more equally through the Potomac than through any part of the Union; or, if there be any difference between one side and the other, there will be a greater space on the south-west than on the north-east. All the maps of the United States show the truth of this. From the Atlantic coast to that line which separates the British possessions from the United States, the average distance is not more than one hundred and fifty miles. If you take the average breadth of the other great division of the United States, it will be found to be six, seven, and eight hundred miles.

From this view of the subject, which is not easy to describe by words, but which will strike every eye that looks on a map, I am sure that if the Potomac is not the geographical centre, it is because the Susquehanna is less so.

Mr. CLYMER begged to set the gentleman right; his colleague, if he understood him, had only related the communication by the north-western branches, but there was a communication by the Juniata, a branch of the Susquehanna, about fifteen miles above Harrisburg, tending westerly, and navigable eighty miles, from whence to the Connemagh was a portage, with a road actually laid out of about forty miles, hence you descend the Kisskaminetas to the Alleghany, and from thence to Pittsburg is thirty miles.

Mr. SCOTT knew this communication pretty well, but we who live in that country never take it into consideration, as the waters are too small to afford a certainty of communication, but even here the portage was greater than between the Potomac and Youghiogheny.

Mr. CLYMER said, with respect to the navigation of the Juniata, that it was in evidence before the House of Assembly of Pennsylvania, when they were considering the means of uniting that navigation with the western waters, that produce to the amount of fourteen hundred bushels had been brought down it to Middletown.

Mr. MADISON proceeded and said, he wished every fact to be ascertained that could throw any light upon the subject. Taking the Susquehanna, as it was practicable for navigation, it would be found, that through that route of communication, Fort Pitt would be four or five hundred miles from the proposed seat on its banks, and that the distance by land was not less than two hundred and fifty miles; whereas, through the Potomac the distance from the proposed spot on its banks to Fort Pitt was not calculated at more than two hundred and fifty miles, and he believed the distance by land would be found not to exceed one hundred and sixty or one hundred and seventy miles.

Whether we measure the distance by land or water, then, the result is in favor of the Potomac. If we consider the progress already made in opening this great channel, its title becomes still stronger. Let me add, that it has been found, on accurate research, that the waters communicating with the Ohio are not more than two or three miles distant from the sources of the Potomac. This is a fact of peculiar importance.

The gentleman from Massachusetts yesterday raised great objections against the Potomac, because it was, as he supposed, subject to periodical maladies, from which the other river was free. I am not authorized, from personal experience, or very particular information, to draw a comparison between them; but there are some general facts that may serve to show, that if there is any difference, it is more likely to be in favor of the Potomac than of the Susquehanna. The position contemplated on the banks of the former is considerably further from tide water than the place proposed on the latter. On this account, therefore, we have little reason to suppose that the Potomac is more unhealthy. If we regard their comparative situations, westwardly, the spot on the Potomac is almost as much further to the west, as it is distant from the proposed spot on the Susquehanna; and he well knew that, generally speaking, as were tire towards the Western and upper country, we are generally removed from the causes of those diseases to which southern situations are exposed. As the two places are moreover in the same latitude, the objection advanced, with respect to that point, cannot apply to one more than the other. It is only their western or eastern position, their remoteness from, or their proximity to the lower country, and to fresh or stagnant waters, that can possibly affect the question. It is not because we advance so much to the south that we advance to the centre, it is because we go more to the west. I do not know that there is a difference of more than a degree and five or six minutes between the latitude of New York and the place proposed on the Potomac.

Mr. AMES never intended that this question should be carried through the committee by the strength of a silent majority; he had confidence in the weight of the arguments to be urged in favor of the Susquehanna, and he was willing to put the decision of the question on that ground. He would now come forward, and give the reasons of his opinion, especially as gentlemen had entered fully into the reasons which guided their own to a different conclusion. He did not conceive it would be necessary for him, coming from the part of the United States from which he did, to disclaim the local views and narrow prejudices with which the subject teemed. He had feared, when the question was first brought forward, that the minds of gentlemen would be highly fermented, indeed so much, that he almost despaired of coming to a proper decision, nor did he think these apprehensions were illusive, if he judged from what had already taken place. He had observed that some gentlemen, whose discernments were clear and who were generally guided by the straight line of rectitude, had been most surprisingly warped on the present occasion; he was fearful that their wishes had misled them from a due regard of the real object of their pursuit, viz: the public interest and convenience. He was sensible, that he himself was liable to some improper impressions; but he trusted he did not feel them in that degree which he thought he saw in others.

He was willing to be led by the great principles which other gentlemen had laid down as the rule of their decision; but he thought they would lead to a different conclusion from what had been drawn from them; he admitted that a central situation is to be taken, and in considering this centre, the centre of a sea-coast line ought to be regarded, because it is more conveniently accessible, has more wealth, and more people than an equal area of inland country. Being more liable to invasion, government should be near to protect it. It is the interest of the back country to have the Government near the sea, to inspect and encourage trade, by which their abundant produce will find an export. And lastly, he said, the contingency of the separation of the Western country was a reason for preferring the sea-coast.

He proceeded next to say, there will not be any contest where this centre of the sea-coast line is to be found: it falls between the rivers Potomac and Susquehanna. It will be found that there are good reasons why we should rather move east than south.

If the sea-coast line is to be preferred, it will follow that the back lands, west of the Ohio, which the gentleman from Virginia has so often taken into his calculations, will be excluded; they are not peopled; they do not affect the sea-coast line; and that line has already been voted to be the proper one by the committee. As it is true that the sea-coast has more wealth and more people than the inland country in proportion to the extent, it is equally true that the eastern half of the sea-coast has more of both than the southern. If we reckon Maryland, which will be as well accommodated by the Susquehanna as by the Potomac, we shall find the population of the eastern part nearly two millions, and that of the southern only one million, and the population of free inhabitants still less in favor of the latter.

But, sir, instead of seeking a centre geographically, we should consider the centre of common convenience. The place is the proper one where the greatest number of persons will be best accommodated. I will endeavor to show that that will be on the Susquehanna. Is the zeal of gentlemen, who oppose this design, influenced by their despair of removing the seat of Government afterwards? I believe the people of America will not complain of it. If fixed there, I think it will be found convenient and will remain there.

The Susquehanna is the centre of the common convenience. At this moment there are more wealth and more inhabitants east than south of it. But the future population of America is calculated, and it is pretended that the balance of population is receding from the East. Surely the present inhabitants may be allowed principally to consult their own convenience. West of the Ohio is an almost immeasurable wilderness; when it will be settled, or how it will be possible to govern it, is past calculation. Gentlemen will pardon me if I think it perfectly romantic to make this decision depend upon that circumstance. Probably it will be near a century before those people will be considerable; if we fix the national seat in the proper place now, it would give me no inquietude to know that a hundred years hence it may be liable to be removed; but, in fact, the principle which is assumed by the committee, and which I have attempted to justify, of taking the centre of the sea-coast line, will, even in the event of that vast tract being settled, furnish abundant reasons for its remaining on the Susquehanna. I will not recapitulate those reasons. We must take some principle to guide us; and though some inequalities will appear, yet let gentlemen remember, that in so vast a country great inconveniences will attend the communications of the people with Government, be the seat of it where it may; and by taking the centre of the sea-coast line there will be less than any other principle. It will be found best to accommodate the greatest number; or, in other words, to be the centre of common convenience: indeed, this is not denied to be true at this moment; but the case is said to be changing. On the one hand, I think it is Utopian to calculate upon the population of the United States a century hence; and, on the other hand, I admit that it is impolitic at least, perhaps unjust, to confine our attention to the present population; a quarter of a century may be a medium. Will gentlemen deny that trade and manufactures will accumulate people in the Eastern States, in proportion of five to three, compared with the Southern? The disproportion will, doubtless, continue to be much greater than I have calculated. It is actually greater at present; for the climate and negro slavery are acknowledged to be unfavorable to population: so that husbandry, as well as commerce and manufactures, will give more people in the Eastern than in the Southern States. The very circumstance that gentlemen found their reasonings upon is pretty strongly against their calculations. They tell us of the vast quantities of good land still unsettled in their States; that will produce a thin population; for the old lands will not be crowded, so long as new ones are to be had.

Mr. CARROLL begged leave to give the Committee some information respecting the distance from tide-water to Fort Cumberland; from the tide-water to the Little Falls was three miles, to the Great Falls six more, from thence to the Seneca Falls was also six more, and from thence to Old Town one hundred and seventeen; which last place was fifteen miles from Fort Cumberland, making in all one hundred and forty-five miles, instead of two hundred, as stated by the gentleman.

Mr. AMES imagined his statement to be nearly right, and he found Mr. JEFFERSON stated in his Notes, that the Falls of the Potomac were fifteen miles in extent, and a navigation extremely difficult to be made.

Mr. CARROLL said, it was not near that distance; in the fifteen miles there were three falls: the Seneca, the Great and Little Falls, but they occupy but a small part of the fifteen miles; he could certainly form some judgment of a place which he might say was almost at his door, and did not expect that Mr. JEFFERSON'S Notes would have been adduced as an authority to contradict information he had given in his place. As to the difficulty of the navigation, he had to observe that many of the obstacles were already so far removed as to render the transportation down to the Great Falls practicable; that there the canal was nearly finished, and ready to sink the lock-seats and insert the frames, so that in a little time there was a probability that no impediment whatever would obstruct the descent of produce to the tide-water.

The question, on Mr. Lee's motion for striking out Susquehanna, and inserting Potomac, was put and lost; for it 21, against it 29.

Mr. MADISON then moved, to add, after "Susquehanna" the words "or Potomac;" this would furnish an opportunity to examine and compare the two situations. It was so favorable to a discovery of the truth, that he did not doubt but gentlemen who were desirous of grounding their decision upon a full understanding of the subject would agree to the motion.

Mr. BOUDINOT seconded this motion, and supported it, by observing the necessity there appeared to be, of obtaining a more accurate knowledge of the two rivers, as gentlemen seemed to differ materially with respect to the matter of fact.

Mr. SHERMAN contended, upon the principles adopted yesterday by the committee, that they could not think of going to the Potomac; he said, that taking the population, even allowing the slaves in the Southern States, there was the greatest weight of population north-east of the Susquehanna; but upon the ratio of representation, at a member for forty thousand inhabitants, there were but one million two hundred thousand south of Pennsylvania, one million four hundred thousand north, including Pennsylvania; but if the calculation was made from the Potomac, the South would contain nine hundred and sixty thousand inhabitants, and the North one million six hundred and eighty thousand. Now, he would ask, if gentlemen could expect that the northern people would incline to go so far south? He apprehended they would not.

The question being taken on inserting "or Potomac," it passed in the negative.

On motion of Mr. PAGE, the committee rose and reported progress, and then the House adjourned.

SATURDAY, September 5.

_Permanent Seat of Government._

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on establishing the permanent residence of Congress; when

Mr. FITZSIMONS presented the following resolution:

_Resolved_, As the opinion of this committee, that the
President of the United States be authorized to appoint
---- commissioners, to examine, and report to him, the most
eligible situation on the east bank of the Susquehanna, for
the permanent seat of Government of the United States. That
the said commissioners be authorized, by and with the
advice of the President, to purchase such quantity of lands
as may be thought necessary, and to erect thereon, within
---- years, suitable buildings for the accommodation of the
Congress, and of the officers of the United States. That
the Secretary of the Treasury, together with the
commissioners so to be appointed, be authorized to borrow a
sum not exceeding ---- dollars, to be paid in ---- years,
with interest, at the rate of ---- per cent. per annum,
payable out of the duties on impost and tonnage, to be
applied to the purchase of the land, and the erection of
the buildings aforesaid. And that a bill ought to pass, in
the present session, in conformity with the aforegoing
resolutions.

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) doubted the propriety of the resolution, because he conceived the declaration in the constitution required a cession of territory as well as jurisdiction. If he was joined in this sentiment by the committee, he would move that the President be empowered to appoint commissioners to examine and report a proper place on the banks of the Susquehanna for a federal town, and that, whenever the State of Pennsylvania shall cede to the United States a certain district or territory, not exceeding ten miles square, Congress would accept thereof for the above purpose.

Mr. LAWRENCE would inquire for what purpose the cession, mentioned in the constitution, was required? It was, in the words of that instrument, to exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever; now, did this consequence involve in it a territorial possession? It certainly did not. It involved nothing more than the power of making laws independent of the State jurisdiction. The gentleman might have carried his idea further, for as the cession is to be made by particular States, it seems to infer that two States, at least, should be concerned in the cession; but would objections, from such forced constructions, have any weight in the judgment of the committee? He trusted they would not. He supposed it more rational to attend to the plain literal meaning of the constitution than to engage in the discussion of the refined speculations of ingenious men.

Mr. VINING observed, that Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, had offered to cede territory, as well as jurisdiction, and there would be a great impropriety in expending the federal treasure, in purchasing the soil, when they might have it without expense.

Mr. AMES endeavored to show that such a cession, as was contemplated in the constitution, might be made by one State to another, without giving a property to a foot of land, by comparing it with the cession of Silesia to Prussia, where not a single acre of soil was conveyed, but of jurisdiction to the whole province; so, when territory changes its government, by being the sacrifice of a treaty of peace. He supposed that Congress were to purchase the soil necessary to erect buildings for the accommodation of the Government, and was satisfied the cession might be made subsequent to their election of a particular spot.

Mr. SENEY.--The gentleman from Delaware has said, that Maryland proposed a cession of soil; but I believe, sir, there is not such a word as soil mentioned in the law.

Mr. CARROLL agreed with his colleague, and supposed that a cession of soil could not have been contemplated, because the State of Maryland had offered any part of the State, not excepting the town of Baltimore. He believed if Congress were disposed to fix in that town, it would be agreeable to the State; but he did not imagine they would agree to give the General Government a property to the whole town, and the surrounding country. The other parts of the State had never contemplated making the inhabitants of Baltimore a compensation for such an immense property.

Mr. GOODHUE believed, if the House had agreed to go to the Potomac, there would have been none of these constitutional difficulties stated. It was well known, he said, that the gentlemen from the eastward had no desire to take up the subject; but those from the southward were sanguine in their expectations that they should get the Government to the Potomac; and were, therefore, for pressing the business, and not allowing it to be postponed as was contended for on the other hand.

Mr. MADISON said, the business was not brought on by their original motion, though they gave it their support. It was true, that a proposition for postponement was made, but what was the extent of that postponement? Till December or January next. Was there any reason to suppose that those gentlemen, who were, at this day, opposed to the Potomac, would give in to such a change of opinion by that time, as to induce us to agree to their proposition. We saw no reason to expect such a change. And, as in fact, we find a predetermined majority ready to dispose of us, the sooner we know our destiny the better; for it can be of little consequence, if we are to be disposed of, whether we are disposed of in September or December.

Mr. WADSWORTH.--The reiteration of being disposed of by bargaining, induces me to rise and make one remark. It is a notorious fact to the members within these walls, that the New England members, to a man, were opposed to a decision at present; and that they were disposed to accommodate the Southern States. They refused all bargaining, till they were assured there was a bargaining set on foot to carry them to the Potomac; why, then, are we reproached with this? Whatever bargaining there has been, we were the last to come into it; we never thought of it, till we were told that we were a property, and should be disposed of, unless we took care of ourselves. I hope, as we have gone so far, we shall settle the subject in dispute, by granting the money and erecting the necessary buildings.

Mr. JACKSON denied being concerned in any bargaining whatever, and defied any gentleman to say he knew any thing of one, till he heard it mentioned on this floor; he was determined to keep himself disengaged, and to vote according as his judgment should lead him, after hearing the subject coolly and thoroughly discussed.

Mr. MADISON hoped, if he travelled a little out of order, he should be justified, after what had taken place; but he could not withhold this public declaration of his wish, that every thing that had passed on the subject alluded to by the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. WADSWORTH,) were to be fully understood, and were reduced to writing. Every thing he knew of it he was willing, on his part, to put into that form; and he was well persuaded that it would be found, on examination, that the opposition of the Southern gentlemen was of a defensive nature, and that they had not listened to a proposition, until they had reason to think it necessary to prevent a sudden and improper decision of this very important question.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, begged gentlemen to remember, that all the Southern members had not been in favor of bringing forward the business at the present session; he had opposed it as well as some others.

Mr. LEE conceived it to be his duty to present once more the preamble, which had been rejected in committee. He flattered himself, after the discussion which had taken place, that gentlemen were prepared to decide on liberal and national principles, and therefore they would adopt those he presented.

Mr. SENEY approved of the Susquehanna in preference to the Potomac, on every principle which had been brought into view, as proper to guide the House in deciding the present question. He treated the alarm which gentlemen apprehended would be given by fixing on the Susquehanna as merely ideal, and existing nowhere but in the imagination of gentlemen; so far from exciting jealousy, or disturbing the public mind, he contemplated it as tending to allay uneasiness, and to give general satisfaction.

On motion, the House now adjourned.

MONDAY, September 7.

_Permanent seat of Government._

The House resumed the consideration of the resolutions reported by the Committee of the Whole for establishing the permanent residence of Congress.

Whereupon, the first resolution was agreed to, and the second, to wit:

_Resolved_, That the permanent seat of the Government of
the United States ought to be at some convenient place on
the east bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of
Pennsylvania; and that, until the necessary buildings be
erected for the purpose, the seat of Government ought to
continue at the city of New York,

Being under consideration,

Mr. LEE withdrew his proposition offered yesterday, and moved to amend the said resolution, by striking out the words "East Bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania," and inserting, in lieu thereof; the "North Bank of the river Potomac, in the State of Maryland."

And, on the question that the House do agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays were demanded, and are

AYES.--Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Brown, Burke, Carroll,
Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison,
Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Smith, (of South Carolina,)
Stone, Sumter, Tucker and Vining--21.

NAYS.--Messrs. Benson, Boudinot, Cadwalader, Clymer,
Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout,
Hartley, Hathorn, Lawrence, Livermore, P. Muhlenberg,
Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman,
Sylvester, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Thatcher,
Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop--29.

So it was determined in the negative.

Mr. VINING said, it now became his duty, after having sacrificed a prejudice, if he had one, by giving his vote for the Potomac, to bring before the House the humble claim of Delaware. He apprehended that her claim to centrality, as it respected wealth and population, was superior to that of the Susquehanna; and that, if a sea-coast line was to be a criterion, she was near the centre of territory. He supposed that this was the line upon which the Committee was to decide for the present. It was not supposed necessary, at this time, to take into consideration the vacant and extensive Western Territory, or why refuse the Potomac, which offered itself under the greatest advantages of an easy intercourse with that quarter? Add to the reasons he had mentioned, that the United States would consult their interest by fixing on the Delaware, as they would not incur the heavy expense of purchasing territory, and erecting magnificent palaces and hotels for the Government, and he thought gentlemen would not hesitate to agree with him.

The place he meant to offer was possessed of eminent superiority, as to salubrity of air and fertility of soil; it also united the advantages of the Atlantic and inland navigation; inasmuch as, by cutting a canal from the waters of the Chesapeake to the Delaware, a communication would be opened from Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland, to New Jersey, Pennsylvania and the midland counties of New York. The spot that he proposed for their acceptance was Wilmington in the State of Delaware; round which they might have a district for exclusive legislation, if it was thought proper to accept it. Under these impressions, he would frame his motions in such a way, as to enable Congress, when they did adjourn, to adjourn to meet at that borough. It was made in this form: To strike out the word "permanent," and all the remainder of the clause, after the words "ought to be at," and to insert in lieu of the last "the borough of Wilmington, in the State of Delaware."

On the question that the House do agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays were demanded, and are

AYES.--Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Burke, Cadwalader,
Coles, Contee, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews,
Moore, Page, Parker, Sinnickson, Smith, (of South
Carolina,) Sumter, and Vining--19.

NAYS.--Messrs. Ames, Benson, Brown, Carroll, Clymer,
Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue,
Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, P.
Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney,
Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Stone, Thatcher,
Trumbull, Tucker, Wadsworth and Wynkoop--32.