Chapter XLIV: Introduction (43)

Mr. GERRY said it appeared to him that the only question seemed to be, whether the House or the select committee shall establish the facts. If these facts are established by the committee, would it give equal satisfaction as if they were established by the House? He conceived it would not; but, should the result be a conviction on the part of the House that some of the officers are culpable, will the House rest an impeachment on the report of the committee? He conceived the House ought to found their decisions on facts ascertained by themselves. It has been said there is no difference between the House and the committee. If this is the case, does it not imply a censure by the House on certain characters? He thought it did. It therefore becomes the House to discuss the report, that it may be determined on what footing it stands. If, in the case of a contested election, the House revolted from the idea of submitting their judgment to facts substantiated by a committee, the case before us is of unspeakably greater magnitude. For these, and several other reasons, he hoped the report would not be recommitted.

Mr. WILLIAMSON was in favor of the motion for recommitting; he supported his opinion by the uniform practice of the House, which in every case where new evidence was adduced, always provided that the new evidence should be examined by the same committee, who had originally brought in the report. He said if this mode was departed from, we should find no committee would bring forward a state of facts in future. He thought it was not treating the committee with proper candor to decide on their report in its present situation.

Mr. SYLVESTER observed, that the resolution of the House at the close of the last session, that they would take up the subject early in the present session, precluded a recommitment; he was therefore opposed to the motion.

Mr. BOUDINOT was in favor of a recommitment; he said, if there is new evidence to be brought, the House ought to wait till that is received and reported at the Clerk's table; and this he conceived ought to be done in the usual way, by a select committee; till the whole testimony is completed it appeared to him the House was not prepared to take one step in the matter.

Mr. MADISON replied to Mr. GERRY's allusion to the ease of the contested election. He inquired of him whether the House itself went into an investigation of facts in the first instance? He believed he would not say they did. With respect to the memorials, he inquired, whether, if they had been presented at the time of the investigation of the subject by the select committee, they would not have been referred to the committee? If they would then have been referred, the same reason exists for referring them to a select committee at the present time.

Mr. LAURANCE was of opinion that a recommitment would tend to a saving of time; the committee will not be obliged to go over the same ground again that has already been explored; all they will be obliged to do is, to investigate the new testimony which will be adduced. He hoped, therefore, that the motion would prevail.

Mr. GILES said, that the proceedings of the committee were public, and that the Secretaries could have attended all the time, had they seen proper. They attended but once, and then appeared extremely anxious to get away to attend to their offices. The committee would have been extremely glad to have had those gentlemen present oftener, and to receive all the information they could give, and supposed they had done it.

Mr. GERRY replied to Mr. MADISON. He said, if gentlemen would recur to the proceedings of the House on the contested election, they will find that the House expressly reserved to itself the right of substantiating the facts, which should appear from an examination of the depositions, taken in conformity to the resolutions of the House; and here he adverted to the mode pointed out by the House in taking those depositions. The adverse party was to be summoned to attend to the taking them; but in this report it appears that _ex parte_ evidence has been admitted as the foundation on which some of the decisions have been made.

Mr. MURRAY supported the motion for a recommitment. He observed that the matter, in its present state, was so incomplete that he could not see how the House could proceed upon it. One part of the evidence only is finished, and the report is made on that evidence. Now, we are told new testimony is offered; let the whole be brought into view at once, and then the House will be in a situation to judge.

Mr. PAGE was in favor of a further commitment of the subject; but whether to the committee who made the report, or to a new committee, he should not take upon him to say. With respect to the admission of any head of a department to the bar of this House, except in case of an impeachment, he would never consent to it. It would be a precedent of a most dangerous nature, tending to a destruction of all freedom of inquiry by committees.

Mr. FINDLAY observed, that the committee wished that Mr. Hodgdon should have been present, but he did not make his appearance; the committee therefore proceeded on the testimony they had, and as there is now new evidence brought forward, he thought it was proper that the report should be recommitted. As one of the committee, he should have no objections to such alterations as might appear proper on further and more complete investigation of the matter.

Mr. STEELE called for the reading of a clause in the memorial of the Secretary of War, which states that the committee had drawn conclusions from _ex parte_ evidence. This being read, Mr. STEELE remarked on the want of candor towards the committee, which had been shown by some of the members in the course of their observations. He then adverted to the above clause respecting _ex parte_ evidence, and observed that, with respect to the Secretary of War, it was not true that the committee had proceeded on _ex parte_ evidence; that officer, said he, was notified of the meetings of the committee; he attended those meetings; he furnished the committee with papers and documents, &c.; and further, he was requested to detain officers in town whose testimony was necessary in the matter, and that he complained of some of those officers being detained by the delays of the committee from the recruiting service. With respect to Mr. Hodgdon the same cannot be said, as he was not then in the country.

Mr. STEELE then concluded by some additional remarks on the indelicacy manifested by some gentlemen in their treatment of the committee, and observed that he did not apply it to himself personally, but as it respected the committee at large, he thought proper to express the contempt which he conceived it merited.

Mr. DAYTON replied to Mr. STEELE. He repeated the substance of his original remarks on the report, and added, that in the course of the discussion he should attempt to show that the deductions made in several parts of the report were false. Mr. D. added, that whatever the gentleman last speaking might say, as one of the committee who signed the report, he was certainly implicated in whatever censure it merited.

The question for a recommitment was then agreed to, 30 to 22. And it was accordingly

_Resolved_, That the Committee of the whole House, to whom was committed the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the said report, together with the documents relating thereto, including the letter of the Secretary of War, and the memorial of Samuel Hodgdon, be recommitted to Mr. FITZSIMONS, Mr. GILES, Mr. STEELE, Mr. CLARK, and Mr. FINDLAY.

THURSDAY, November 15.

Another member, to wit, THEODORE SEDGWICK, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

MONDAY, November 19.

Another member, to wit: JOHN FRANCIS MERCER, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

_Protection to American Commerce._

Mr. WILLIAMSON moved that a committee be appointed to prepare and bring in a bill or bills for promoting commerce, by the increase of American seamen. In moving the above, Mr. W. addressed the House as follows:

Measures have already been taken by Congress for increasing the number of our shipping; but no effectual and _general_ measure has been adopted for increasing the number of native American seamen. Every gentleman in my hearing knows that there are always a considerable number of foreigners employed on board American vessels; but none of us could have expected, and some of us may not have heard of the injury and insults to which our commerce has been exposed, from having British seamen on board our ships.

A schooner called the David and George, belonging to Portsmouth, in Virginia, and commanded by Captain Goffigan, lately touched at Sierra Leone, on the coast of Africa; she was navigated by eleven persons. Three of that number who had been on shore, informed Captain Wickham who commanded an armed vessel, that they were British subjects. Captain Wickham went on board the American vessel and claimed the three seamen; he also claimed wages for them. Captain Goffigan refused to deliver the men, and declared with truth that nothing was due them. Captain Wickham took the men by force, and by the same regulation he went into the hold, and took as much of the cargo as he thought fit, under the cover of substitute for wages. Captain Goffigan complained of this violence and robbery to Mr. Clarkson, who is Governor of the Province. The Governor replied, that he should have done the same thing, and that _he had orders from his superiors_ so to act in such cases.

The ship Illustrious President, belonging to Virginia, commanded by Captain Butler, touched some time ago at Madeira, on her passage to the East Indies. The British frigate Hyena, commanded by Captain Hargood, lay at that time in the road. Seven of Captain Butler's sailors being British subjects, Captain Hargood sent to take them by force from on board the American ship, and he would have done so, had not the Governor of the Island, remembering what he owed to the honor of his nation and to every ship under his protection, interrupted his authority.

The ship Fame belonging to Philadelphia, commanded by Walter Sims, on her way to the East Indies, lately touched at Table Bay, at the Cape of Good Hope. Captain Blith, who commanded a ship of twenty guns, then lay in the road. One of Captain Sims' sailors, a native of Scotland, offered his service to Captain Blith, calling himself a British subject. That very man in Philadelphia had taken the oath of allegiance to the United States; but the British claim was best, for Captain Blith's ship was strongest. He took the man, sent an officer on board the American ship, who took the liberty of opening the after hatch, searching the hold and looking out a chest and clothes. Captain Blith justified these acts of violence, by saying, that he had _printed instructions_ to take all who called themselves British subjects.

These are a few out of the numberless cases in which our ships have been robbed of their seamen, and they are samples of the manner in which we shall be constantly treated, while we depend on foreigners to navigate our ships. If these cases had terminated in threats and abusive language, to which our flag is too much accustomed, it might have been questioned whether the nation of the offending party was to blame. When you are told by one officer and another, that he is instructed to distress our trade, we should, if possible, deprive them of the present excuse. Is it not our business to inquire into the cause of this strange conduct? By a vitiated passion for British goods, we are universally clothed in the manufactures of that nation. Our debts increase every year, and we labor to make her rich, while we are becoming poor. We pour our treasures into her lap more than any other nation under the sun. Observe the rewards! I say nothing about her measures on our Western Frontier; but our trading ships are boarded and plundered at discretion by her ships of war; and yet, Great Britain, whose commerce we cherish, is the only nation that treats us in this manner. Perhaps it is conjectured that Americans are of that species of animals whose favor is increased by rough treatment. Be this as it may, it is our duty to consider of the safest and surest mode of extending our commerce. After we have been told that an American vessel having sailors on board, who chance to have been born in the British dominion, is subject to be deprived of her hands, robbed of her property, and turned adrift without help, it can hardly be necessary to adduce other arguments in favor of native American seamen; but other strong and conclusive arguments in favor of the measure present themselves. The merchants' property in critical situations, or in distant or obscure parts of the world, is always most safe when a ship is navigated by men who uniformly strive to return to their native home, and whose hopes and happiness centre in that country to which their ship belongs. The crew of a French brig some weeks ago, murdered their captain and mate on our coast; that misfortune, in all probability, would not have happened, if the seamen had been natives of France. Two of them only were of that kingdom. Is it necessary to add, that a powerful body of seamen, at some future day, may save us from the vast expense and danger of a standing army? Upon this single argument of native seamen we might rest the question. It needs neither support nor illustration. I shall, therefore, presume, that it is our duty as soon as possible, to provide for the daily operations of pride or injustice, by furnishing the merchant with seamen, of whom he cannot be robbed, except by open declaration of war--with seamen in whom he can trust--with men, who, actuated by those passions which are inseparable from the human breast, the pride of nation and the love of country, may serve him in every part of the world,--to furnish the nation with a safe and strong bulwark against foreign tyranny and invasion.

I shall now take the liberty of moving that committees may be appointed to bring in bills for the purposes mentioned.

Mr. WILLIAMSON, Mr. LAURANCE, Mr. GOODHUE, Mr. BENJAMIN BOURNE, and Mr. BARNWELL, were appointed to prepare and bring in the same.

THURSDAY, November 22.

Another member, to wit, JOHN MILLEDGE, returned to serve in this House for the State of Georgia in the room of ANTHONY WAYNE, whose seat was declared vacant, appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat in the House.

WEDNESDAY, November 28.

_Warner Mifflin's Petition._

Mr. STEELE called the attention of the House to the memorial and representation of Warner Mifflin on the subject of Negro slavery. Mr. S. said that after what had passed at New York on this subject, he had hoped the House would have heard no more of it; but, to his surprise, he found the subject was started anew, and had been introduced by a fanatic, who, not content with keeping his own conscience, undertook to become the keeper of the consciences of other men, and in a manner which he deemed not very decent, had intruded his opinions into this House. Had an application been made to him to present such a petition, he thought he should have avoided a compliance with it. Gentlemen in the Northern States do not realize the mischievous consequences which have already resulted from measures of this kind, and if a stop were not put to such proceedings, the Southern States would be compelled to apply to the General Government for their interference. He concluded, by moving "that the paper purporting to be a petition from Warner Mifflin, be returned to him by the Clerk of the House; and that the entry of said petition be expunged from the Journal."

Mr. AMES rose to explain his motives in presenting the petition. He said it was his opinion, which he had expressed to the House long ago, that this Government could not, with propriety, take any steps in the matter referred to in this petition; but, on the general principle that every citizen has a right to petition the Legislature, and to apply to any member to present his request to the House, he had handed it in. The petitioner is a citizen of Delaware; and had the member from that State been in the House, he should not have thought himself obliged to have introduced it; but that gentleman being absent, the petitioner had a right to apply to a member from any other State. He had no idea of supporting the prayer of the petition, his mind having been long made up on the subject. He considered it as totally inexpedient to interfere with the subject, and had uniformly opposed the applications made at a former session of Congress.

Mr. LIVERMORE did not consider the motion in order, the subject not being properly before the House; nor did he believe there was any disposition to bring it forward.

Mr. W. SMITH said he had seconded the motion, with a view of putting it out of the power of any member to call it up when persons might be absent who would find it their duty to oppose it. Mr. S. said he admitted, in its full extent, the right of each citizen to petition for a redress of grievances, and the duty of the House to consider such petitions; but the paper in question is a mere rant and rhapsody of a meddling fanatic, interlarded with texts of Scripture, and concluded with no specific prayer. He observed it was the general practice of Legislative bodies for members presenting petitions to read them, in order to make known their objects, and to have them entered on the journal. In this particular instance the practice might be attended with danger. Citizens of the Southern States learning that papers of this kind meet with countenance here would be alarmed. The gentleman who presented this paper had not, on this occasion, shown his usual regard to Southern interests. Had he stated its dangerous object, the House would undoubtedly have refused its reception. After the proceedings at New York, when a similar application was made, his constituents had a right to expect that the subject would never be stirred again. He would assure the House, that while he continued a member of it, he should never fail to express his abhorrence against all such applications, as they could have none but a mischievous tendency. So far from being calculated to meliorate the condition of the race who were the object of them, they had a tendency to alienate their affections from their masters, and by exciting in them a spirit of restlessness, to render greater severity towards them necessary. He therefore earnestly called on the House to agree to the motion, and thereby convince this enthusiast, and others, that they can never meet countenance in the Legislature of the Union.

The part of the motion directing the petition to be returned by the Clerk was agreed to. The remainder was withdrawn by Mr. STEELE, the mover.

THURSDAY, December 13.

ANDREW GREGG, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

TUESDAY, December 18.

A memorial of the officers, now residing in the State of New York, of the late American Army, in behalf of themselves and their brethren, the soldiers of the said Army, was presented to the House and read, praying that the depreciation which accrued on the certificates of debt granted them in reward for their military services during the late war, may be made good to them, or such other relief afforded them as the present circumstances of the United States will admit. Also, a memorial of the Pennsylvania line of the late Army, to the same effect.

_Ordered_, That the said memorials do lie on the table.

THURSDAY, December 27.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, accompanying a statement of the present organization of the troops; also, Returns of the commissioned officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, in the service of the United States; which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

FRIDAY, December 28.

A memorial of the officers and soldiers of the late New Hampshire line of the Continental Army was presented to the House and read, praying that the depreciation which accrued on the certificates of debt granted them in reward for their military services during the late war may be made good to them, or such other relief afforded them as the present circumstances of the United States will admit; which was laid on the table.

_Reduction of the Army._

Mr. STEELE called up his resolution laid on the table some days ago, as follows:

"_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed to prepare and
bring in a bill to reduce the military establishment of the
United States to ---- regiments or corps, consisting each
of ---- non-commissioned officers, privates and musicians,
with such proportion of commissioned officers as the
PRESIDENT may think proper to continue in service; and to
repeal so much of an act, passed the fifth of March, one
thousand seven hundred and ninety-two, entitled 'An act for
making farther and more effectual provision for the
protection of the frontiers of the United States,' as may
contravene this intention.'"

Mr. STEELE, in proposing the above resolution, said, the situation of the frontiers, and the inefficiency of the measures adopted through the medium of the War Department, to relieve them; the extreme burdens which those measures were heaping on the people, and the probability of their continuance, afforded ample scope for inquiry; and to sit silent on such an occasion, he thought, would be to partake of and support the errors from which those misfortunes may have arisen. The citizens of the United States, he said, were of a peaceable and patient disposition, and they have with cheerfulness acquiesced in the measures of the National Legislature; but they were not become so tame as to submit to immense and fruitless expenses, and the disgrace of their military character, to answer any vain projects of folly and ambition, without a prospect of guaranteeing a peace. Is it not evident, said he, that plans have been persevered in without regard to common sense, by an unnecessary increase of our army, until the indignation of the whole continent has been roused up against it?

To elucidate this position, Mr. S. recited the expenses, charges, and increase of the War Department from its first establishment under the present Government, to its present enormous demands, which for the year 1793, are no less, agreeably to the estimate furnished by the Secretary of the Treasury, than $1,171,719;[45] more than double the sum necessary for the support of all the other branches of the National Government. The better to illustrate this subject of the Indian war, he entered into comparative statements of the years 1790, '91, '92, and '93; and, animadverting on the different items of calculation, he asserted, in strong terms, that they exceeded every thing that the history of the Indian wars afforded for twenty years back; he wished any gentleman to enter into an investigation and comparison of the alarming increase of the expenses of the department, and to take a retrospect of the subject for twenty years back; and he was certain neither the Secretary of War nor any other person could account rationally for the occasion of such an establishment. There was no precedent to be found in any of the States; not one of them has a War Department; neither was it contemplated in the Constitution of the United States. Yet it has, in the short space of three or four years, been imposing on the country burdens which the people have at length expressed their abhorrence of; it has been increased from $137,000 in 1789, to the extravagant demand now required, of $1,171,719 and $50,000 contingencies for the support of 1793. This is so alarming an increase, that it calls loudly for reformation, or the entire abolition of the department, and that another system shall be adopted for the protection of the frontiers. Armies of regulars will never afford protection; they have never answered any good purpose against the Indians from the time of Braddock's defeat down to that of Major General St. Clair, although this last-mentioned unfortunate expedition cost the United States an immense sum of money, and the lives of a great number of valuable officers and citizens. History and the experience of ages have proved this fact, that unwieldy armies will never be able to fight the savages in the wilderness; indeed, the Secretary of War confesses the fact in one of his reports, which Mr. S. read, wherein the Secretary accounts for the ill success of the plans, by observing, "that it was owing to the extreme activity of the enemy and our ignorance of the wilderness through which our troops had to march." But the Secretary might have also added, our entire ignorance of the mode of carrying on the war.

Here Mr. S. took occasion to observe, that this alarmingly expensive and useless department had crept upon the country entirely from our fondness for taking up money on loans; for had it not been that the money was thus obtained with a sort of facility that was not directly felt by the people, they never would have consented to be directly taxed to support the parade of so unnecessary an establishment. This is my reason for being an enemy to loans; they deceive citizens, and lull them for a time, in order to levy double contributions afterwards.

But it may be demanded, how are the frontiers to be protected, if the army was disbanded? In reply to this Mr. S. said he wished that the former two regiments might be retained to garrison the forts, and that a militia near the scene of action should be raised, who would be able to make five expeditions against the savages in a year, if necessary, instead of one solitary fruitless attempt, which, upon an average, is as much as a regular army can do; and sometimes not so much, for it does not appear that any expedition took place during the last twelve months: moreover, it is not so easy for the Indians to discover the plans and approaches of militia, as they do the slow motions of an unwieldy army, dragging their heavy artillery through the woods. The fact is, that the Indians have the best intelligence and know every motion of the army, and they can even calculate the time and place to meet them, and the numbers of their tribes that will be necessary to receive such a force; they will always be prepared when a regular army are to march against them. But if the business be left to a militia of the frontier inhabitants, who know the country, and have their property at stake, it would not cost the Government one-fourth part of the expense to give a complete protection, and to repel all the depredations of the savages, if that be our intention. If it be the protection and happiness of our brethren on the frontiers--if we are serious to check the progress of expense, the motion which I have brought forward will be the most effectual means, and to establish a proper Militia System. On this motion, therefore, will depend the question, whether we are to continue a fruitless warfare in the present mode for seven or ten years, or shall we adopt a better system, which will not cost one-fourth of the expense, and which would completely check the Indians; nay, it would entirely exterminate them, if that was thought to be necessary.

In order to bring the matter to a point, Mr. S. suggested, that it would be proper to disband all the troops except the two former regiments of two thousand one hundred and twenty-eight men, which would be more than sufficient to garrison all the fourteen posts on the frontier. These, with a militia, under proper regulations, and the officers appointed by the PRESIDENT, would be found a more certain protection. The garrisons are at Fayette, Hamilton, Steuben, Knox, Tammany, Telfair, Harmar, Franklin, Jefferson, St. Clair, Marietta, Massachusetts, Matthews, and Knoxville. Most of these are commanded by captains, except two that are commanded by majors: now, reducing the establishment to two thousand one hundred and eighteen non-commissioned and privates, and average them amongst the garrisons, it will give one hundred and fifty-two men for each; the sum saved by this reduction would be six hundred and twenty-four thousand six hundred and seven dollars--the difference between the appropriations for 1792 and those required for 1793.

With regard to the expense that would be incurred from militia expeditions, none of them would cost above thirty thousand dollars; and four or five of those, if made in a year, would have ten times the success and effect that could be expected from the present system. Had the militia plan been adopted, we should not at this day hear such murmurs from our constituents, nor would the people be saddled with heavy taxes and imposts; but, on the contrary, the money that has been actually wasted would have sunk a considerable part of our National Debt. But by the system of warfare lately adopted of dragging heavy cannon and camps into a wilderness, of which we have confessed our ignorance, if it be allowed any longer, our Treasury will be exhausted, and the public revenues which the Secretary of the Treasury reported as affording a prospect of income beyond the permanent wants of Government, will not all together be sufficient for our War Establishment; we must fly to loans, and pursue a system of ruin and distress to the country. Under these impressions, said Mr. S., I have introduced the proposition now before the House; and I entreat gentlemen to think seriously of it, for thereon, in a high degree, will depend the real protection of our frontier, the safety of our garrisons, and the ultimate ease, happiness, and tranquillity of the continent.

Mr. HARTLEY, although he did not wish to advocate the continuance of a standing army, yet he was averse to disbanding the troops at present, while it is known that a negotiation for a peace is going forward, and may not perhaps be brought to a decision before the spring. It is a well-known maxim in politics, that a peace can always be easiest obtained by a nation which is prepared for war. He noticed the great prudence and economy of the PRESIDENT in forming the army into a legion; and he differed in opinion with Mr. STEELE respecting the insufficiency of regular troops. No instance could be quoted where regulars had engaged the Indians without beating them.

Mr. PARKER said he had always abhorred the idea of keeping up standing armies in this country; and he believed he could from experience demonstrate that it was an unwise measure at the commencement of the present Government; for it answered no better purpose than throwing out a hint to the British and Spanish Governments, on our Northern and Southern frontiers, to increase their forces, and even to administer countenance and support to the Indians, which they never would have thought of doing, but for our vain attempt at military parade. He mentioned a letter which had been written by Lord Dorchester to the Indians, informing them "that Prince Edward had arrived with a number of chosen warriors to protect them," meaning against the United States.

Thus, said Mr. P., we have been warring with our finances for the last three years, by keeping up an army in imitation of European plans, which are formed in countries altogether unanalogous to America in every possible view. The consequences have been unsuccessful, and produced military disgraces, by sending into the field a collection of beings, collected from stews and brothels and from the most unprincipled of their species, to fight against Indians well supported on both sides, and fighting, as they do, for their property, their hunting ground, their wives, and children, instead of calling forth the militia, the natural strength of the country. But the present plan has involved us in such difficulties that we are not now able to provide for the payment of our debts, without the medium of loans; nay, we are now called on for a small sum of two hundred thousand dollars at the bank, which would have been easily paid out of the surplus in the Treasury, were it not that our finances have been exhausted by those ill-judged expeditions under General Harmer and General St. Clair. He mentioned the naked, starved appearance of the men who were sent out--with shoes that would not last three days, clothes that did not half cover their miserable bodies from the inclemency of the weather, and food sometimes not fit for dogs. He could mention the particulars, if required, of some other very abominable abuses, but refrained from it at present. He concluded by expressing the same opinion of militia that Mr. S. had done; and, with regard to the starved soldiery who had appeared in the woods, they were despised so much by the Indians, that they called them Coatmen, and shot them down like wild turkeys.

Mr. FITZSIMONS was apprehensive that it would be a dangerous experiment, so suddenly to alter the system of defence already adopted. He remarked, that when Mr. STEELE had stated the War Department to have cost the United States three million five hundred and forty thousand dollars, he had committed a great mistake, for there was one million one hundred and seventy-one thousand dollars of that sum not yet granted. [Mr. STEELE explained, that he had gone by the estimates for the appropriations proposed, &c.] Mr. FITZSIMONS did not wish to advocate a standing army; and if any better mode of defence for the frontiers could be digested, he would be amongst the foremost who would agree to it.

Mr. WHITE could not entirely approve of the motion for striking out, unless a proper substitute for defence was fairly brought forward.

Mr. WILLIAMSON said, it was not disbanding an army of men, but the disbanding an army of paper, that he conceived to be the object of the motion, and it should have his support. He mentioned an affair between ninety militia and two hundred and forty Indians, wherein the militia _received_ them much better than any of the regulars could boast of having done!

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) reverted to a clause in the law which empowers the PRESIDENT either to raise those three additional regiments, or to forbear to raise them, or discharge them, &c., provided he thought it consistent with the safety of the country. From this Mr. S. said it was evident there was a sort of indelicacy in the motion, as it implies a doubt that the PRESIDENT might fail in this instance, or vary from his usual line of prudence.

Mr. DAYTON said, he would vote for referring the motion to a Committee of the Whole, although he disapproved of it. He should not have risen had he not heard from the two North Carolina members the strangest perversion of argument and the most extraordinary reasoning. The gentleman who has brought forward the motion, said Mr. D., has decried every idea of energy and efficacy in regular disciplined troops considering them not only inefficient, but contemptible, when employed against Indians; and, to confirm this assertion, he has instanced the expedition under General St. Clair, when it is well known that there were not, in fact, two companies of regular disciplined infantry among them. The other gentleman (Mr. WILLIAMSON) has extravagantly commended the back-country militia, and extolled them for their efficiency and success in Indian warfare; and instances the affair of a rencontre between Major Adair, with ninety militia, against two hundred and forty Indians. In reply to this, Mr. D. felt himself compelled to remark, that that affair did not appear so successful in his mind; for those very militia were unquestionably surprised and beaten, inasmuch as they were driven into a corner, until the Indians captured all their horses and other property in their camp; and what is still more disgraceful, one half of the Major's party deserted him at the commencement of the action, and secured themselves within their garrison.

Whilst he was up, Mr. D. would further observe on the extraordinary speech of the mover of the question, that it was such as no person could have ever expected to hear within the walls of that House. It seemed to be calculated to prejudice the minds of the people against the whole Administration; and it appeared still the more extraordinary that such a speech should come from a gentleman who so lately expressed the nicest delicacy in matters of order and decency; for, in this instance, he has committed the greatest breach of decorum and propriety, by a direct censure of the Secretary of War, the PRESIDENT, and both Houses of the Legislature. [Here several members called Mr. DAYTON to order.] He proceeded, however, and appealed to the House, whether he had not drawn a just picture of the expressions of the gentleman from North Carolina. The very calculations which he has so laboriously produced have been questioned by other members. In regard to the surprise expressed by the gentleman at the increase of the War Department from 1791 to '92 and '93, it was not so strange that five thousand men would require greater supplies than two thousand. Yet the gentleman is surprised at the increase of expense, and seems to imply that abuses have been committed; but if an increase of expense for protecting the frontiers has accrued, the censure ought to fall on the Legislature for directing it by their laws, and not upon the Executive, who are merely the instruments for carrying them into effect.

Upon the whole, Mr. D., however he might himself be in favor of a reduction of the army, if it stood simply on its own merits, yet, as it now struck him, it being connected with some recent circumstances, he would therefore oppose it as tending only to embarrass the Executive in their attempts towards a pacification. Moreover, he said he knew the temper of Indians so well, by having lived amongst them, that there was not a nation on earth more extravagant in their demands, when they saw the force against them was lessening. So that what is intended by the motion for reduction at present, as economical, may turn out to be, in the end, the most expensive of any.

Mr. WADSWORTH was also against the motion; and Mr. AMES closed the debate by a few observations on the necessity of committing to a Committee of the Whole, as there would be no other way of answering the industrious calculations of the mover.

The question on committal was carried, and made the order of the day for next Wednesday.

WEDNESDAY, January 2.

_Military Establishment._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the motion of the 28th ultimo, for reducing the Military Establishment of the United States.

Mr. WADSWORTH rose and observed, that he had pledged himself to the House last Friday to show that the calculations of the gentleman from North Carolina were not true; and, if true, that the inferences drawn from them were not correct. There was a material difference (he said) between the appropriations quoted by the gentleman and those which he would now read to the House. Here he read a statement which he had prepared, from which it would appear that Mr. STEELE had overrated the contingencies, hospitals, quartermasters, forage, cavalry, ordnance, pay, and subsistence, each of them.

The total difference between Mr. STEELE's and Mr. WADSWORTH's calculations, from this representation, was $27,080 in the year 1790.

In like manner, Mr. W. read his calculations for 1791. On comparing which with those of Mr. STEELE, he said there was a difference in the total of $252,312; and in the total of 1792, he showed a difference of $567,530. He also particularly objected to Mr. STEELE's statements of the ordnance expense for 1793, which had been called $23,000; but that sum, although it comes under the head of ordnance in the estimate, is not altogether appropriated for the purchase of cannon; the whole amount of the expense of cannon, he said, had been very trifling--about $700 or $800. Having proceeded thus far in attempting to controvert the calculations of the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. W. said, it would indeed have been an alarming thing to the United States, had they been founded in reality. But the gentleman had not confined himself to misstatements--he had gone further; for he had "lamented the necessity of quoting even truths from that office"--the War Office. Here Mr. W. stated that the quotation which Mr. STEELE had made from a report of the Secretary of War had not been correctly quoted. After Mr. W. had thus represented Mr. STEELE's calculations as erroneous, and his quotations as misstated, he said that the House ought to beware of not being led astray by them. He next observed, that the gentleman had laid a great deal of blame of the present hostilities between the United States and the Indians, and the expense attending them, to the War Department. But Mr. W. conceived that there were other causes to be assigned for the Indian war. There had never been a day, from the first settlement of America to the present moment, without our being at war with the Indians, in one place or another. The history of the country, the resolves of the old Congress, every book published by Congress, show this to have been the case. [Here he read some quotations from the resolves of 1784, to show the appropriations for defraying the expenses of Indian wars.] He wished the House to take a retrospect of the subject, from the beginning of those troubles down to the late application for assistance from the National Government by the Governor of Georgia. Although they have three thousand men on the frontier of that State, yet it is not found sufficient, and the Indians have driven them in. Indeed, there has been a time when the town of Savannah has been obliged to keep a guard.

It was not his intention to introduce commendations of the officer at the head of the War Department, but he thought it proper to observe, that he is not to be blamed on account of the expenses referred to. He is no more than an instrument acting under the Supreme Executive. It is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES who has found it necessary and proper to recommend the establishment of a military force. It is, therefore, not the Secretary's, it is the PRESIDENT's war; and to assert that the Secretary has had any undue influence with the Legislature, would be altogether false; for, on the contrary, his reports have been treated with disrespect in this House. Was not his report at New York ridiculed, and called "preaching," &c., because it was in favor of peace, and spoke with great humanity respecting the hardships often inflicted by the whites on the Indians? Indeed, the Secretary of War has been uniform in his endeavors to bring about a durable peace. This, however desirable an object, has been found hitherto impracticable, and the Indians have lately carried their depredations to so great a length that the PRESIDENT has judged it necessary to repel them by force. They have murdered in cold blood our ambassadors of peace, whilst holding a flag of truce in one hand and reaching the other out in friendship to the Indians. Perhaps they may have been excited to this degree of barbarity by many causes. It is hard to determine which are the greatest aggressors--the settlers on the frontiers or the Indians. The murder of the Moravian Indians, the proclamation of Congress against our own people, all show that the Indians have ground for complaint.

Here Mr. W. recapitulated the affairs of the banditti at Fort St. Vincennes; the representations of Judge Innis, of Kentucky, from 1783 to 1790, respecting the people there who could not be restrained from the commission of crimes against the peace of the country. From these causes and the common fatality of the times, our attempts towards peace have proved abortive, and the war has been prolonged, but the Secretary is entirely innocent of promoting it.

In regard to the other arguments of the gentleman (Mr. STEELE) respecting the militia, that they would afford either a cheaper or better defence for the frontiers, he had his doubts.

Mr. W. now went over the whole history of the frontier wars; a line of posts was once established and garrisoned by militia, yet they could not prevent the Indians from coming within sixty miles of Winchester, and murdering, scalping and plundering the women and children. After the peace of 1762, the Indians drove in the militia, and advanced as far as Cumberland and Carlisle, in the State of Pennsylvania.

But Colonel Boquet, with the remains of two regiments of regular troops, who had just before arrived from the West Indies, marched against the savages, and hired pack-horses to carry some of his sick men. With these regulars, Colonel Boquet fought them and drove them with the bayonet from one end of the country to the other. The battle began at one o'clock the first day and lasted until night, and was renewed the next morning with superior force by the Indians; yet they were entirely discomfited. This news went to Fort Pitt and Virginia, and revived the spirits of the country. Virginia raised more troops--and Colonel Boquet dictated a peace to the savages.

These instances furnished sufficient arguments to show the superiority of regular troops over militia. But he could mention many others, viz: General Hartman, with eight hundred chosen men, giving a total defeat to the Indians; Colonel Willet's attack and defeat of them; and General Sullivan's affair in South Carolina.

As to the defeat of Harmer and St. Clair, their men ought not to be reckoned regular troops. They were raw recruits, undisciplined, &c. But even they stood better than the militia; for the militia ran away, and those who remained to fight the savages fell, to their honor be it spoken, whilst the militia, who were the advanced guard, ran and threw away their guns, nay, their coats.

Upon the whole, the balance of argument, Mr. W. thought, must appear in favor of regular troops.

He further took occasion to animadvert on what Mr. WILLIAMSON had said, when that gentleman expressed himself so strongly in favor of the militia under Major Adair. That officer, Mr. W. observed, had been a Continental officer, and from his own words, it appeared that he had no very great opinion of the militia, for they had fled to the garrison; and the Indians obtained their ends, notwithstanding the _reception_ given by Major Adair. Theirs was the triumph, and when they retired, it seems to have been not so much a matter of necessity, as a thing of choice, on their part. The loss of horses, one hundred, perhaps, and the expense of this affair, amounted to a much greater sum than any regular troops would have cost. The party under Major Adair, supposing it to consist of a hundred men, cost one hundred dollars a day, reckoning the attendant circumstances--and considering it, as Mr. W. did, a complete defeat--for there are no circumstances to prove that it was otherwise--the militia having deserted him and left the few regulars he had exposed to the whole of the danger.

Mr. W. did not stop here in his details of military disgraces--he recounted many other cases. He mentioned the Grant's expedition against the Cherokees, &c. And still he drew a balance against the successes of the militia; for, he said, they had constantly been defeated, and the country left exposed to the depredations of the enemy.

Much has been said, observed Mr. W., of Clark and Sevier's successes. They, indeed, afford an exception to the cases above mentioned; but how far were they successful? The immense expense of men and money, and the interruption given to the agriculture of the country by calling away from their business so many industrious citizens, is a thing beyond the power of calculation; for my part, said he, I do not know figures enough to count it up. For the truth of this position, and for the enormous waste and expense incurred by militia, he appealed to one of the members (Col. PARKER) on the other side of the House, who had experience in the matter, whether it was not absolutely impossible either to bring militia under a proper discipline, or prevent their enormous waste. A whole brigade of regular troops would not cost so much as one regiment of militia to a country. The militia of Kentucky have cost more blood and wealth than all the American war; when the circumstances are considered of calling out men from the tillage of the field, &c. It is enormous the number of lives, and the aggregate loss is countless. The causes of these things are, want of order and discipline, &c. And those causes have produced _a universal reprobation of the war establishment_; but all those who condemn are not well acquainted with those causes; they judge from hearing only one-half of the truth in our newspapers. It is supposed a peace can be easily effected, but I know of no peace that has not been effected by force; for, although promises have been made and peace often treated for with the Indians, yet they have as constantly broken those promises. This is a good reason for keeping up the present force of the United States. We are now able to meet the Indians and demand a safe peace. But the gentleman from North Carolina calls our establishment a mere military parade, which, it is said by another gentleman, (Mr. PARKER,) will only tend to rouse the Spaniards and the British, &c.

He went on quoting the conduct of the Indians and their threatening manner, when they told you, "go to your own side of the Ohio," &c. What language do they now hold out? But I am not at liberty, said Mr. W., to mention it, as it was confidentially communicated to this House, and read with our doors shut. However, it is well known to all the members present the insolence of that language. For my part, I have little hopes of a peace from any promises of the Indians; and although a negotiation is said to be upon the carpet, I can never depend upon the promises of savages who have so often broken them.

In speaking of the recruits that have been lately raised for the regular army, Mr. W. opposed his opinion to that of Mr. PARKER, who mentioned them in such contemptible terms as having been collected from the stews and brothels of the cities, &c. For his part, Mr. W. had often seen them, and he believed they were equal, if not superior in spirit and appearance, to most of the soldiery during the British war, and better than the soldiery were at the close of the war, with some exceptions, such as respects the men who cost £300 each. Before he could quit the subject, he begged leave to mention another instance of the efficacy of regular troops; it was the affair of General Wayne's surprise, when the light-horse dismounted, and cut the militia to pieces, and the infantry drove them off at the point of the bayonet.

He ridiculed the idea of calling out a militia upon every emergency. Where are they to be formed? In Pennsylvania it would be attended with a tenfold loss, if they must quit their daily labor. He would admit that the character of the Kentucky militia had been brave and intrepid; but there was still occasion for a new war, and no ultimate protection afforded to the frontier.

The Governor of North Carolina had complained of a friendly Indian being murdered, &c. On the whole, he thought it improper to take militia to fight Indian warriors. He admitted that some abuses might have been practised in the regular army, but they were as little, if not less, than in any other army he could remember.