Chapter LX: Introduction (59)

Mr. W. SMITH agreed with gentlemen that the principal object of the House was to legislate; but it did not follow that they were to be confined merely to legislation. Every Legislative body exercised the right of opinion in cases where no act was to follow. This House has frequently exercised it: the answers to the PRESIDENT's Speech; the answer to the King of the French on his acceptance of the Constitution of ninety-one; the opinion of the House on the merits of that constitution; the vote respecting Benjamin Franklin; the vote of last session in reply to a letter from the Committee of Public Safety of France; the votes of thanks to the Speakers, were precedents on the journals which refuted a contrary doctrine. It had been said that the latter case was a mere matter of form. Mr. S. thought differently, and if ever he was in that House when a vote of thanks should be proposed to a Speaker who had no claim to it, he should feel it his duty to oppose it. Gentlemen apprehended that this practice might lead to innumerable difficulties hereafter. But every House would exercise its judgment and discretion. Members would not be so rash as to propose the thanks of the House where serious opposition was expected, nor would the thanks be voted unless well merited. He was unwilling as any member to make the thanks of the House too cheap; but all must confess that if ever there was an occasion where they were properly called for, this was one. To deny the right or expediency of the practice was in fact to strip the House of one of its most agreeable functions, that of expressing its gratitude.

It had been advanced as an objection, that the two Houses might differ; one might vote thanks and the other censure, in the same case; but that might happen in other cases where the propriety of expressing an opinion was admitted; in answering the PRESIDENT's Speech in the State Legislatures, where thanks were frequently voted, the two branches might differ; that was never deemed an objection to the practice; each House expressed its individual opinion.

Mr. SMITH said, if the House had been sitting in September last when the account arrived of this victory, would the members have then felt as coldly as they now do? No: he was convinced that in the moment of joy and gratitude, they would have unanimously voted thanks to the army without the least hesitation; but they have since had time to cool, and the impression is worn away.

Gentlemen should consider the hard services of that army; how badly paid they were; the nature of the country they were in; and then determine whether the brilliant action of the 20th August is to go unrewarded? To appreciate truly the merits of that army in obtaining so signal a victory, let the House reflect on the consequences of a defeat: the army disbanded and broken up; the frontiers exposed to the ferocious savages; the combination of the tribes more cemented and formidable; an expensive, long, and bloody war. What is now our prospect? The frontiers protected; the combination of the tribes dissolved, and peace with them all a probable event.

Before, therefore, the motion which he had made could be got rid of, it was incumbent on the gentlemen on the other side to show, either that it was improper in any case whatever to pass a vote of thanks, or that this was not a case entitled to them; to do the first they must establish, in the face of precedents innumerable, a doctrine destructive of one of the most amiable privileges of the House; to do the last, they must express a sentiment which would, he was persuaded, be repugnant to the sentiments of all their constituents, for throughout the United States there was but one opinion on this subject, and that was in unison with the motion. Having made the motion after due deliberation, he certainly should not withdraw it; but would submit it to the good sense of the House.

Mr. COIT moved the previous question. He thought the practice of dangerous consequence. It might produce much uncomfortable proceeding in that House. He was seconded by a number of members.

Mr. PARKER felt the highest esteem for the services of the Western army. He was intimate both with General Wayne and General Scott; but he disapproved of the practice upon principle. It was wrong in Mr. MURRAY to quote the proceedings in the Legislature of Virginia, where the Governor was in authority a mere cipher, because the two cases did not apply. The Federal Government was on a quite different footing, a mixture of monarchy, of aristocracy, and of democracy. The PRESIDENT represented the monarchical part. It was his business to give thanks, if requisite. If he himself was an officer in that army, Mr. P. said that he should be satisfied by the first thanks, those in the answer to the PRESIDENT. He would be hurt by the second as unconstitutional. What if, in the mean time, General Wayne and his army may have committed some error that requires an inquiry, and the House are to go into it with this vote of thanks staring them in their face! It had been said by Mr. SMITH, that if we had been sitting in September, when this news arrived, a vote of thanks would have been passed immediately and unanimously. I believe no such thing (said Mr. P.) We should have recommended such a step to the PRESIDENT.

Mr. GILES said, that if there ever could have been any doubt as to the impropriety of the resolution, that was now removed, (alluding to the speech of Mr. PARKER.) He thought that the gentleman (Mr. COIT) who moved the previous question had acted from the best motives. Two gentlemen (Mr. GILES referred to Mr. SEDGWICK and Mr. AMES) had recommended an appeal to _feeling_. We are sent here to reason. A gentleman (Mr. SEDGWICK) says that he has feelings which he cannot express. Let him strive to express them. It is not expected that a member is to express all that he may feel on every subject.

Mr. MURRAY said he thought the present resolution proper, unexceptionable, and as the fate of this question would have an effect on the motion for thanks to the militia, which he brought forward yesterday, he hoped it would succeed, and that its mover (Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina) would not withdraw it. Gentlemen who are against the vote have talked of precedent. If example would serve their feelings with a stimulus, he would take the liberty of calling their attention to a page he had in his hand, in which they would find that some of our constituents have got the start of us, for the House of Delegates of Virginia had very properly considered the conduct of their Governor (Mr. LEE) in a light which merited their thanks for his acceptance of the command of his fellow-citizens against the insurgents. Mr. M. read the vote from a newspaper, which was a unanimous one. He said he considered this circumstance as extremely auspicious to both votes.

He said he had no objection to consider the practice as founded in principles which would bear examination. He thought it more necessary in the administration of our Government--the great basis of which was public opinion--than in that of any other which he had read or heard of. Here our theories have made a bold appeal to the reason and feelings of our fellow-citizens. Neither titles, nor hereditary honors, nor crosses, nor ribbons, nor stars, nor garters, are permitted or endurable. Neither would they be accepted here were they offered. We had but two ways, as far as his knowledge then served him, of rewarding or acknowledging great displays of public virtue. One way is by pay in money; the other by thanks expressed by vote, or presented and perpetuated in some memorial, as in a medal. The first is unequal; as the fortunes of men differ, so would such reward not be equally valuable to all its objects; and were it practicable to apportion this reward agreeably to the fortunes of men, there is a something ill-assorted in it with the idea of honorable ambition; nor did he think there was any good man who had a spark of what is called sentiment in his bosom, who would not say the reward was not only lame for want of uniformity, but defective in point of taste in its species. He believed much in the sense of duty as a motive to good and reasonable services, and that an enlightened mind would feel the close alliance between interest and duty; but he held reward to be essential, politically considered, to the practice of great virtue, taking men as you find them. Not that money can be an adequate reward; it was therefore that he wished to see a style of acknowledgment derived both from the genius of the Government and congenial with the passions which work on the side of virtue--a mode as far removed from mere avarice as it was nearly associated to the movements of the most elevated minds. He readily yielded his belief that the gentlemen who were unwilling to adopt the practice fully admitted the merits to which they did not think it expedient to give a vote of thanks; but the precedent, founded expressly on the principle, that in no case of the greatest events are we to give thanks to the agents in them, will absolutely strip the Government of the only power its constitution admits of conferring deserved distinction. He thought that public gratitude was a great fund, which if judiciously and delicately economized, might be rendered a source of great and good actions. It is an honor both to the nation that can feel and express it, and to those who receive it. He did not think it ought to be lightly drawn on, and hoped a line which it was more easy to conceive than draw, would be adopted by the House to save the Legislature from those perilous occasions which would lessen its value, and that no member would ever move a vote of thanks but upon the happening of some event so strikingly great and useful as to carry but one opinion. The two events designated at present (for he saw both votes were to have one fate) were great, highly interesting, and carried but one opinion. The army under General Wayne had gained a brilliant victory. It was, he believed, the first great victory that had attended the arms of the United States since the adoption of the constitution. That army merited the thanks of their country, and we may say so. They had not only gained victory and fame, but had earned them in a solitude where the voice of fame could not be heard; in a profound wilderness, where neither the soothings of just ambition can reach them, nor the smiles of social and civilized life can comfort them after their severe labors.

The militia, both officers and men, in "quelling the insurrection," had displayed the wisdom and virtue which the constitution had anticipated; had eminently deserved the most public testimony to their good conduct. Shall we, as we certainly feel this to be true, be deterred from expressing what we feel, because the folly of a future moment may possibly betray us into an undue multiplication of thanks, or because we may be harassed by a fatiguing succession of calls upon our gratitude? There could be little fear that great events would crowd too fast upon our feelings, and take up our time by applause, and he believed his constituents would readily admit the importance of two such events as some excuse for the time we consume in celebrating them.

In favor of the principle, we are supported by the example of the old Congress, by the practice of all nations, and by the known character of human nature in all cases and everywhere. The ancients and the moderns, by a variety of inventions and of policy, analogous to our object, endeavored to enlist all the passions in the public service. The old Congress understood the springs that work in great events, and though there was in the glorious revolution which they guided, an ardor in the public mind that needed little aid, they did not disdain an appeal to the just pride and ambition of the individual; that the motives to public virtue might be multiplied, they in many instances took care that great events and services should be attended by some small but inestimable memorial.

Mr. AMES.--The apprehensions of the House have been attempted to be alarmed, as if they were pushed to adopt hastily and unguardedly some dangerous new principle. The practice of all public bodies, without exception, has been to express their approbation of distinguished public services. Instead of establishing a new principle, the attempt is now made to induce us to depart from an old one. Nay, the objection taken altogether is still more inconsistent and singular, for it is urged, the answer of the House to the PRESIDENT's Speech has already expressed our approbation of the conduct of General Wayne and his army. It is, say they, superfluous to express it again. The argument opposed to the vote of thanks stands thus: It is a dangerous new principle, without a precedent, and without any just authority from the constitution, to thank the army; for, the objectors add, we have in the answer to the Speech expressed all that is contained in the motion. It is unusual to quote precedent, and our own recent conduct, to prove a motion unprecedented, and to prove a measure new and dangerous because it has been adopted without question or apprehension heretofore.

It is simply a question of mere propriety; and is it a novelty, is it any thing to alarm the caution of the House, that such questions are always to be decided by feeling? What but the sense of propriety induces me to perform to others the nameless and arbitrary duties, and to receive from others the rights which the civilities and refinements of life have erected into laws? In cases of a more serious kind, is not sentiment the only prompt and enlightened guide of our conduct? If I receive a favor, what but the sentiment of gratitude ought to direct me in my acknowledgments? Shall I go to my benefactor and say, Sir, I act coolly and carefully; I will examine all the circumstances of this transaction, and if upon the whole I find some cause of gratitude, I will thank you. Is this gratitude or insult? The man who affects to hold his feelings, and his best feelings back for this cold-blooded process of reasoning, has none. He deceives himself, and attempts to deceive others, if he pretends to reason up or to reason down the impressions which actions worthy of gratitude and admiration make upon his heart. Was it necessary to wait for the joy and exultation which the news of the victory of General Wayne instantly inspired, till we could proceed with all due phlegm and caution to analyze it? The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) has not even yet received the impressions which are so natural and so nearly universal; for he has insisted that the army has only done its duty, and therefore it is improper to express our thanks. Indeed, it has done its duty, but in a manner the most splendid, the most worthy of admiration and thanks. That gentleman has also expressed his doubts of the very important nature of the victory, and one would suppose it was thought by many a very trivial advantage that is gained. It is such an one, however, as has humbled a victorious foe; as has avenged the slaughter of two armies; as gives us the reasonable prospect of a speedy peace. Can we desire any thing more ardently than a termination of the Indian war?

A soldier, of all men, looks to this kind of recompense for his services; and surely, to look to the approbation and applause of his country is one means of keeping alive the sentiments of citizenship, which ought not to be suffered to expire even in a camp. Shall we make it an excuse for refusing to pass this vote, that we establish the principle of thanking nobody? Is not this, as a principle, as novel, as improper, as that which alarms our opponents? And shall we establish it as a principle against the known practice of other assemblies and of this, and against the intrinsic propriety of the case, merely because we think our discretion will not be firm enough in future to prevent the abuse of the practice? Scarcely any abuse could have a worse influence than the refusal to adopt this vote, because, should the negative prevail, what would the army believe? Would they not say, a vote of thanks has been rejected? It is said we have not done much, and what we have done is merely our duty, for which we receive wages?

The debate has taken such a turn, that I confess I could have wished the motion had not been made. For the most awkward and ridiculous thing in the world is to express our gratitude lothly. But at least it offers to those who fear that votes of thanks will be too frequent, some security against their apprehensions. Would any man risk the feelings and character of his friend by an attempt to force a vote of thanks by a bare majority through the House? No, an ingenuous mind will shrink from this gross reward. If there is any force in the precedent it is feared we are now making, it will operate more to deter from than to invite the repetition.

Mr. DEARBORN was in favor of the original motion. In addition to some remarks relative to the Republicanism of the idea of the Representatives of the people thanking the armies of the people for their prowess and victories, he compared the argument against the resolutions on the score of abuse to a miser's excusing himself from the practice of charity, lest he should bestow it on unworthy objects.

Mr. RUTHERFORD was opposed to the previous question. He hoped the resolution of thanks would pass without a dissenting voice.

The previous question was now called for, by five members, viz: "Shall the main question to agree to the said resolution, be now put?" And

On the previous question, "Shall the said main question be now put?" it was resolved in the affirmative--yeas 52, nays 36.

And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the said resolution, it was

_Resolved, unanimously_, That the thanks of this House be given to the brave officers and soldiers of the legion under the orders of Major General Wayne, for their patience, fortitude, and bravery.

_Resolved, unanimously_, That the thanks of this House be given to Major General Scott, and to the gallant mounted volunteers from the State of Kentucky, who have served their country in the field, during the late campaign, under the orders of Major General Wayne, for their zeal, bravery, and good conduct.

_Resolved_, That the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES be requested to transmit the foregoing resolutions; and that Mr. WILLIAM SMITH and Mr. MURRAY be appointed a committee to wait on the PRESIDENT therewith.

On motion of Mr. MURRAY,

_Resolved, unanimously_, That the thanks of this House be given to the gallant officers and privates of the militia of the States of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia, who, on the late call of the PRESIDENT, rallied round the standard of the laws, and, in the prompt and severe services which they encountered, bore the most illustrious testimony to the value of the constitution, and the blessings of internal peace and order; and that the PRESIDENT be requested to communicate the above vote of thanks in such manner as he may judge most acceptable to the patriotic citizens who are its objects.

_Ordered_, That Mr. WILLIAM SMITH and Mr. MURRAY be appointed a committee to wait on the PRESIDENT with the foregoing resolution.

TUESDAY, December 9.

_The Mint._

The House then took up the motion of Mr. COIT, relative to the Mint. The letter of Mr. Rittenhouse, referred to yesterday, was again read.

Mr. BOUDINOT drew the attention of the House for some time, by a series of the most interesting observations. He went to the Bank of the United States to inquire for cents. He was told that there were none to be had, because the Bank could not get them from the Mint. He then went to the Mint, where he was informed that cents were not coined faster because the officers of the Mint did not know where to get them vented! He said that this Mint cost twenty-four thousand dollars per annum, and every cent coined there cost the public several cents, though he could not exactly tell how many. In New Jersey far more cents had been coined in a few months than had ever been coined altogether at the Mint of the United States, and this had been done at one-fortieth part of the expense which the Mint of the United States has cost.

Several other members adverted to the prodigious inconvenience which is felt all over the Union for want of copper coin; and it appeared to excite some curiosity, on what foundation the officers of the Mint said that they could not get their cents vented. It was remarked by Mr. W. SMITH that, except as to Philadelphia, the Mint is of little or no use whatever. The cents given out never go farther than the city.

A committee of three members were appointed to examine and report on the state of the Mint, and what means may be used to render the institution more beneficial to the United States.

WEDNESDAY, December 10.

An engrossed bill making appropriations for the support of Government, for the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-five, was read the third time, and passed.

MONDAY, December 15.

Two other members, to wit: from Virginia, JOHN PAGE; and from North Carolina, BENJAMIN WILLIAMS, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

TUESDAY, December 16.

_Pennsylvania Insurgents._

It was then moved and seconded that the House should go into a committee, on the report of the select committee, on that part of the PRESIDENT's Speech which recommended compensation to the sufferers by the insurgents in the Western counties. The House accordingly went into a committee, Mr. COBB in the chair, and the report was read.

In the clause for making compensation to officers of Government, and other citizens, Mr. NICHOLAS was for striking out the three last words, and restricting indemnification to the officers of Government, as the additional words would make room for a set of claims which never could be satisfied or put to an end. It is now ascertained that the majority of the people of the four western counties have always been in favor of Government; but, since it is so, they ought to have suppressed the insurrection, and saved the expense of sending an army into that country. But as they did not do so, Mr. N. did not see what claim they had for compensation any more than the sufferers in the war with Britain.

Mr. FINDLAY thought that sound policy required an indemnification to the sufferers.

Mr. HILLHOUSE was in favor of the report of the committee as it stood. The whole affair was but a trifle. He understood that the damages done by the rioters did not altogether exceed twenty thousand dollars; and that three-fourths of this sum was for losses sustained by officers of the revenue. The rest of the account was for persons who had fought in defence of the officers or who had lodged and protected them. He observed that the whole of the select committee were of one mind upon the subject, and agreed in considering the other citizens as equally entitled to indemnification with the officers themselves.

Mr. NICHOLAS was still against the resolutions as originally worded. He did not see any proof of extraordinary attachment on the part of the claimants, nor any peculiar call on the justice of the House in this particular case.

Mr. W. SMITH said, that one man had his whole property burned for having, at the hazard of his life, assisted in attempting to defend the house of the Inspector General. A second received the same treatment for having lodged an excise officer; and a third, because he had antecedently been one himself, though he had quitted his employment before the riots began. Mr. S. urged that these were certainly peculiar and pressing cases, and that it would be highly impolitic not to protect such people.

Mr. GILBERT hoped that there would be no discrimination, but that all the sufferers would be alike reimbursed.

Mr. BOUDINOT proposed a kind of compromise between the original resolution and the amendment by Mr. NICHOLAS. He proposed that the clause should read thus: "officers of the revenue, and other citizens aiding and assisting them." He was willing to indemnify persons who had actually suffered in defence of Government, but not other persons who might accidentally have been injured by the rioters.

Mr. DAYTON was of opinion that some restriction of this sort was necessary. Citizens were in duty bound to support Government, but the latter was not in all cases bound to indemnify their losses. Let any person go through any part of the country wherever British soldiers had marched, and he would find thousands and tens of thousands of people whose property had been utterly destroyed by the wanton barbarity of these troops. Go to another part of the country and you will find people who suffered very considerably by the American soldiers, when Government did not give them an ounce of bread for pounds that they should have had. It was not possible to make satisfaction to all these people.

Mr. SEDGWICK said it was extremely disagreeable to attempt detaining the committee with this subject, to which they discovered such general inattention, that he did not know if it had ever been equalled in any popular assembly before. He again adverted to an argument which he had used on a former day, viz: that when a private person, at the risk of his property and his life, comes forward to support the execution of the laws, his service was much more meritorious, and demonstrated a much greater degree of patriotism than that of a revenue officer who was paid for his share of the business. He inferred that the sufferers by the Western rioters should all be equally indemnified.

Mr. HILLHOUSE repeated some of his former reasons for wishing to discharge the whole claims. He was therefore against the qualified amendment of Mr. BOUDINOT.

Mr. SWIFT was against the amendment of Mr. BOUDINOT, because he was against giving, at present, any thing at all. He would suffer the persons who have sustained injury from these rioters and trespassers to prosecute them at law. If they cannot get any retribution in that way, then, and not sooner, you may begin to consider upon the propriety of giving any compensation; but till the parties aggrieved have done their utmost in that way, he would have no steps whatever taken of the nature proposed. It had been alleged that the House might advance money in the mean time to the sufferers, and leave them to their actions against the rioters. But if you pay a man for his damages, what security is there that he will follow up his suit; or, is it not evident that such previous compensation will greatly damp his ardor? Mr. S. said, that if previous notice were given of Government being ready to pay the damages, in case they could not be recovered before a court of law, there certainly never would be found a jury to bring a verdict against a private person. For this reason Mr. S. was entirely against the resolution at this time. What he might do hereafter, he would not say. There was only one case wherein he could be induced to advance money. If any of these persons could prove that they had been reduced by the rioters to such poverty that they were unable to prosecute their claims in a court of law, it might then perhaps be expedient to advance for them the expenses of the suit. But the interposition of the House at this period would affect the claims very greatly, and thus confer on the rioters themselves a favor which Mr. S. was very unwilling to bestow, as he would wish them prosecuted to the utmost. Before the meeting of next Congress, it might be ascertained what could be made of these prosecutions, and then, and not till then, Mr. S. would think it proper to enter on the discussion suggested by the report of the select committee.

Mr. DEXTER drew a distinction between persons suffering by an open enemy, whose approaches they could not avoid, and those who suffer voluntarily. The claim for compensation was complete, and we should do the parties injustice if they did not receive full satisfaction.

Mr. BOUDINOT withdrew his amendment, under the idea that the particular cases would hereafter come before the House. The question therefore reverted to its former shape, shall the words "and other citizens" be struck out.

Mr. DAYTON, in opposition to Mr. DEXTER, considered the Government of the United States as more justly bound to make reparation to the people who suffered by the robberies and conflagrations perpetrated by British soldiers than to compensate the sufferers in the four Western counties; for those whose houses were burned, and whose property was destroyed by the British, had no quarter to which they could look for relief except to their own Government. The people to the Westward, on the contrary, had it in their power to prosecute the rioters, who were well able to pay them. Mr. DEXTER had said that the losses of the persons ruined by the British were upon record. Perhaps, said Mr. DAYTON, they will always be on record; but nobody supposes that we shall ever indemnify these losses. He thought it prudent for the present to restrict relief to the officers of Government alone.

The question was about to be put, on the amendment proposed by Mr. NICHOLAS to the first resolution in the report of the select committee, when Mr. SCOTT rose. He said, that if there had been a proposal devised to weaken the hands of Government in the four Western counties, there was no one thing which could have effected that point so completely as the striking out of these three words, "and other citizens." If gentlemen would only reflect for a moment, he would ask them how they thought it possible that any civil officer, after the adoption of such an amendment, would ever be able to raise a posse in that part of the country? Who would hereafter venture to defend the life of an excise officer, when the world has been told, that individuals do it at their own hazard, and cannot look to Government for any compensation? Who will hereafter admit an excise officer into his house, if that house may, with impunity, be burned about his ears? As soon as this amendment has gone abroad, every body, instead of assisting the officers of the revenue, will strive to keep out of their way, and have nothing to do with them. If there never had been any thing said about making a compensation to other citizens, perhaps there might have been little harm, or at least there would have been much less harm by forbearing to give them relief. But when the subject has been fairly brought forward by the PRESIDENT in his Speech, and when it had been debated at full length in this House, when so much notice had been attracted, and so many hopes have been thrown out, to give, in the face of all this, a direct negative, would be the most impolitic step that could possibly be thought of.

The committee then agreed to reject the amendment, and divided on the first resolution as it originally stood in the report of the select committee--yeas 46, nays 37.

The second resolution was then put for enabling the PRESIDENT to draw the sum of ---- dollars for the relief of the sufferers--yeas 41, nays 37.

Mr. SMITH then said, that seventeen thousand dollars had been mentioned in the committee as sufficient to pay the whole damages. He proposed to fill up the blank with eight or ten thousand dollars, on account, till they should see what was to be the final amount of the claims.

Mr. HILLHOUSE and Mr. KITTERA both objected to this proposal. The committee rose. The Chairman reported that the committee had agreed to the report of the select committee without any amendment. The House were about to take up the report, when Mr. SEDGWICK said, that he was really concerned at thinking that there could have been any division at all about such a thing. He still hoped that a measure might be adopted which would produce unanimity on the subject, and would have a much better effect than such a division.

The bill appropriating one million one hundred and twenty-two thousand five hundred and sixty-nine dollars and one cent for the expenses of the militia in the Western expedition, was read a first and second time, and referred to a Committee of the Whole to-morrow.

WEDNESDAY, December 17.

_Pennsylvania Insurgents._

The House resumed the consideration of the report of the select committee on that part of the PRESIDENT's Speech respecting compensation to the sufferers by insurgents in the Western counties in Pennsylvania. When the first of the two resolutions in the report was read, Mr. SWIFT objected to the granting of immediate indemnification, on much the same ground as he adopted yesterday in the Committee of the Whole. He inquired how a person, with a compensation from that House in his pocket, could appear in a Court of Justice to prosecute a rioter for damages, when the Judge, the jurors, and every one in Court knew he had been indemnified? He enlarged, at some length, on the great pity that it would be to let those rioters and rebels escape so; and, after they had cost Government above a million of dollars, that they should not be obliged to pay these sixteen or twenty thousand.

Mr. LYMAN hoped that the House would give the money, and have done with the business.

Mr. NICHOLAS.--The more he considered this question, he was the more convinced that the House are involving themselves in embarrassment. Are you not told (said he, alluding to what had been urged by Mr. SWIFT) that, by paying these claims in the first instance, you are cutting the sinews of civil process? In any future commotion of this kind a person who has lodged an exciseman may have his house burnt from private spite against him, and not because he interfered in favor of a revenue officer. Then you are bound, by this precedent, to indemnify him; and how can you distinguish what was the real motive to that outrage? He believed it impossible ever to bring Government to such a state of perfection as that all losses suffered in defence of it should be indemnified at its charge. Where is the difference between this case and that of indemnifying the losses at sea by the British? Yet that proposal was rejected. Where is the gentleman who will say that he believes people will put themselves to the trouble of prosecuting, when they know that the money, if recovered, must go into your pockets again? Let us put the case, that a jury in the Western counties, where these points must be tried, shall find any of these people entitled to less than what you have bestowed upon them? Can you then recover the money back again? It is said that this resolution embraces but a few instances, and these of the most meritorious kind; but, in reality, it includes all citizens who have suffered. What will this comprehend, or, rather, what will it not comprehend? He supposed that the design was that the commissioners appointed by the PRESIDENT for that effect should be sent into the Western counties to ascertain the damages. Mr. N. concluded by declaring that nothing which he had heard could induce him to go to the extent proposed; and, by giving money at present, the prosecutions would all come to nothing.

Mr. MURRAY hoped the first resolution would succeed. He really thought that the reasoning of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) would extend to the exclusion of General Neville.

Mr. MADISON remarked, that great respect was due to this proposition, both on account of the interesting occasion that produced it, and of the quarter from whence it came. But the more he revolved the subject in his mind, the more he was convinced that great circumspection was requisite, and that the House, for many reasons, ought to take as much time in deliberating upon what they ought to do as the nature of the subject will admit. He recommended the proposal of some gentlemen to let the affair lie over to next session.

It is no doubt proper to encourage a spirit for suppressing insurrections, and this measure is certainly calculated to promote that spirit. But, in his judgment, Mr. M. feared that it would likewise encourage insurrections. A great body of people were commonly engaged in such disturbances who were not worth hanging, and to whom an established Government usually held out an amnesty. By this means great multitudes came in, and received pardon before the operations of chastisement began. The mob, therefore, would in this case reason thus: As a crowd, we have a good chance to escape the gallows. Let us then plunder as fast as possible, because Government will disburse the loss, and we shall not be forced to disgorge our booty. Mr. M. thought that speculations of this kind might be entertained by future insurgents, if the House were instantly to vote a complete indemnification to the sufferers. Mr. M. held the highest respect for the arguments and feelings of gentlemen who espoused the other side of the question. What he himself had just now suggested, he did not regard as decisive considerations, but yet as considerations of weight. His own impression was to let the matter lie over till the next session, and then those who had done their best in prosecuting would come forward to that House to claim compensation under the most auspicious circumstances, and all which they shall have recovered will be saved to the State.

Mr. BOUDINOT differed in some degree from the gentleman who spoke last. He was for doing something at present, though not so much as was implied in the first resolution. He recapitulated the danger that would arise from slackening the efforts of people to prosecute the rioters. He entirely dissented from the principle laid down by some gentlemen, that Government was in all cases bound to indemnify the losses sustained by its citizens from foreign or domestic outrage. In the war with Britain there were great numbers of people who chose rather to fight it out to the last, and permit their houses to be burnt by the British troops, than accept of terms which they might have obtained. Mr. B. again proposed the amendment which he laid yesterday before the committee, viz: that after the words "and other citizens," there should be inserted, "personally aiding and assisting them." This he thought sufficient in the mean time.

Mr. HEATH declared himself against the resolution as unsound policy. He feared that it may be an encouragement to future mischief. When an officer of the revenue finds that he is to be so easily paid--to be paid a double value for the burning of his house--will not this slacken his ardor in defence of it? Who has not heard of the rebellion of _Shays_, where a great deal of property was destroyed? People there began at the right end of the business. Lawsuits were commenced against the rebels, and damages were recovered. Pray, would it not be a proper bar to the recovery of damages in a court of law to say Government has paid you? Will not these people who suffered by the Tories in the last war come next, with open mouths, and demand indemnity? We shall next have those citizens who lately suffered by the pirates of Britain hastening to demand compensation. Mr. H. considered this as the most important question which had come before Congress during the present session. He concluded by saying that he would bear his testimony against this resolution.

Mr. CARNES was of the same opinion. Mr. MURRAY had said that it would be impossible to find a jury in the Western counties who would give honest damages against the rioters, because almost every body was on their side, and there would be no possibility of finding a jury who would pass an equitable verdict, unless recourse was had to the odious and execrable practice of packing juries. This remedy was worse than the disease; and from this Mr. MURRAY inferred the futility of compelling the sufferers to wait for the result of hopeless prosecutions, and the propriety of immediately paying the damages. Mr. CARNES asked the gentleman whether his knowledge as a lawyer did not inform him that an upright jury might be selected without having recourse to the infamous expedient of packing? When a jury were chosen, the prosecutors would be at liberty to except against them; and if they were either men of bad characters, or in any shape connected with the rioters, these exceptions would be admitted, and this process would go on till a respectable jury could be chosen. This was quite distinct from any thing like packing. He considered this explanation as a satisfactory answer to the arguments advanced by the member from Maryland; and he entertained a better opinion than that gentleman seemed to possess of the jurymen in the Western counties. Mr. C. foresaw many bad consequences that might possibly flow from this alacrity in discharging damages. What if there should be a collusive insurrection between two parties, and then, instead of twenty thousand dollars, we shall have to discharge a bill of perhaps an hundred thousand, or twice that sum? He considered it as good a plea in bar of prosecutions to say, Government has paid you. But if we are so fond of indemnifying people who suffer losses, the House may begin by satisfying the settlers in the back part of Georgia, where the Creeks within the last ten months only have done mischief to the extent of five or six hundred thousand dollars. He should be glad to hear the House disposed to indemnify these people, but it was what he did not expect. He could not see why these sufferers were not as much entitled to compensation as the others in the four Western counties. As to the Creeks, the State of Georgia was neither at war nor peace with them. Peace it was called, but in the mean time the savages were committing incessant murders. Reverting to the question before the House, Mr. C. said, that it would be most impolitic to proceed at present in the payment of these losses; and he was convinced that the PRESIDENT himself, when he made the reference in his Speech, did not intend that the thing should be acted on immediately. Mr. C. hoped that there would be a delay for the present session. The best way to ascertain the real extent of the damages was to leave the matter to the decision of a jury. When juries have determined this point, then, if the rebels cannot pay, give satisfaction to the sufferers in terms of the verdicts. The member from Maryland had said, that damages could not be accurately specified by a jury. Yes. If you pay nothing at present, but, if you pay at present, the action is barred. Mr. C. had not entirely formed his opinion on the question of compensation, but he was satisfied that it was better to make a delay.

Mr. DEXTER, in reply to the supposition that this compensation would encourage future insurrections, gave it as his opinion that it would be the means of preventing them. An insurgent would say to himself, "I might escape from the prosecution of my neighbor, but, when the United States assist him, I cannot stand against both." Mr. D. conceived that the meaning of the resolution had been mistaken, and he placed the question in a light entirely new and unnoticed by any former speaker. Gentlemen had spoken as if the resolution went to the immediate and complete discharge of the whole damages, and upon this many arguments had been founded. This idea was an entire mistake, for the first resolution went only to ascertain the real extent of the damages, and did not pledge the House to pay the total amount of them. He considered this as a very material distinction, and which, in a great measure, obviated many arguments on the opposite side of the question. Mr. D. did not think, with the member from Georgia, that the same rule applied to the south-western settlers of that State and to parties in the present resolution. The people on the frontiers have "placed themselves in a place of danger knowingly." The Creeks were an open enemy, but the insurgents were an unexpected one. Mr. D. proceeded at great length to make a distinction between the two cases, and concluded by saying that the second resolution, which, as well as the first, he hoped would pass, went only to a temporary relief.

Mr. HARTLEY also placed a part of the question in quite a different light from any former gentleman. Since he had been a member of that House he had found occasion to read a good deal of law, and, from that knowledge of law, he had, yesterday, in the committee, informed the House that neither General Neville nor any body else could obtain damages against the rioters in a civil action. All the arguments, therefore, which had been advanced as to whether equitable damages could be recovered before a jury, proceeded upon an error, because no civil process whatever would lie in the case. If the House were disposed to doubt his own opinion, Mr. H. could now give them that of the first law officer in Pennsylvania. Since yesterday Mr. H. had consulted that gentleman, who gave it as his express opinion that the greater crime absorbs the lesser; that a case of this kind is only a criminal action, and that no penal damages can be recovered. The crime is liable to a capital punishment; he did not mean to death; but to such a degree of punishment as the offence should be found to deserve. Mr. H. added, that if people had known that they were to be indemnified for their losses by the United States, a much greater number would have stood by the law than did so. It was not the fear of personal danger which prevented people from resisting the insurgents; it was apprehension of having their barns burned down in the night time.

Mr. DEXTER interrupted Mr. HARTLEY to inquire whether, by the laws of this State, the property of an insurgent is forfeited for his crime? Mr. HARTLEY replied that it was not. Mr. DEXTER then remarked, that it was very absurd to say to a man, "You are an insurgent; you have committed a great deal of mischief, but you are so very deep an offender that I cannot recover damages." Mr. HARTLEY rose again to give some further explanation, when the SPEAKER announced that he had something to communicate to the House. Mr. HARTLEY sat down, and the SPEAKER said, that he had received from the PRESIDENT some important and confidential communications, which it was requisite to read in the House this day. It did not appear that they would decide on the first resolution at present, and there was not now more time left before the common hour of rising than would be necessary for reading the communications from the PRESIDENT. The debate was instantly deferred, and the galleries cleared.

FRIDAY, December 19.

WILLIAM IRVINE, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

_Pennsylvania Insurgents._

The House resumed the consideration of the resolutions reported on Wednesday last, from the Committee of the whole House, on the report of the committee to whom was referred that part of the Speech of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES which relates to the policy of indemnifying the sufferers by the depredations of the insurgents in the Western counties of Pennsylvania. Whereupon,

The first resolution being under consideration, in the following words, to wit:

"_Resolved_, That the President of the United States be
requested to cause an ascertainment to be made of the
losses sustained by the officers of Government and other
citizens, in their property, (in consequence of their
exertions in support of the laws,) by the insurgents in the
Western counties of Pennsylvania."

The amendment of Mr. BOUDINOT, on which the House had been debating on Wednesday, was read. It was for the insertion, after the words "and other citizens," of the following addition: "personally aiding and assisting them."

Mr. HARTLEY then rose, and spoke as follows: I have no great encouragement to speak, when I find that my expressions and language have been totally mistaken, both by gentlemen in this House and by the person who frequently reports the debates. On Tuesday, I had ventured to say, that I thought no great reliance could be had upon the individuals injured obtaining satisfaction by personal actions against the insurgents; that I imagined the civil remedy was merged in the offence of arson against the State, or perhaps a higher offence; that, from the state of things, we could not promise ourselves that the sufferers would be compensated by civil suits.

On Wednesday, I mentioned to the House, that, though there had been much discussion, yet, as I considered part of the House to labor under what I held to be a mistake with respect to the _lex loci_, or law of the State, which we were obliged to take into view, I held it my duty to observe, that, the day before, I had said that I thought the smaller offence, that is, the civil injury, had been merged in the greater against society; that the offence, so far as related to the State, would be arson, which had been a capital offence, punishable with death, that the punishment had been mitigated by the alteration of the penal code, but still it was a felony. I noticed that I had formerly read law a good deal with considerable attention, but since I had been in Congress, I had not been able to bestow much time upon it. I said that formerly certain principles or maxims had made impression upon my mind; that, among others, was the one under consideration, that, in arson, the injury to the individual was merged in that against society, or, at least, must give way to the other; and public justice must be done in the first place. I mentioned that I had consulted one of the first law officers of the State, which is true, and he agreed with me in opinion. Indeed, he added, that no reliance should be had upon the personal remedy, but that compensation ought to be made to the sufferers.

I have no reason to change my former opinion. Really, when I consider the conduct of the commissioners to those who made their submissions, I should imagine it was the intention of the parties that there was to be an oblivion as well of the civil as the criminal offences to those who submitted; and, as the Legislature has the power to construe the agreement, it becomes her rather to do it with magnanimity than otherwise.

Your officers, and those aiding and assisting them, ought to be protected and supported. I will now say, as I did the other day, that the fear of having their houses or barns burned, terrified many a man in the Western country from joining the standard of the law, and forced him to temporize with rebellion. When the officers know that they are to be protected in their persons and property--when the _posse comitatus_ are informed that they are to be regarded in like manner--we may expect energy in the execution of the laws. The law of Pennsylvania is defective, or at least doubtful; and, if the present punishment for arson continues, the Legislature of that State will, I dare say, point out a decided remedy for the party injured against the offender. It becomes the honor and justice of the Legislature to protect and support the officers, and those aiding them. I shall, therefore, vote for the amendment.