Chapter LI: Introduction (50)

Mr. BOUDINOT said, that he should be very sorry to recommend the augmentation, if he thought that it would induce farmers, and sober, industrious people to quit their families and professions in exchange for a military life. This, he thought, would indeed be a very alarming consequence, and, did he apprehend it, he should undoubtedly oppose the intended increase. He had no apprehensions of that kind. America would be in a very bad situation, indeed, if an additional pay of twelve dollars a year could bribe a farmer or manufacturer to enlist. He should look very strange at any of his neighbors who should tell him that they had embraced such an offer. Instead of augmenting the pay, perhaps it was better to add something to the rations; those, for example, of salt and flour. He thought it safest to agree to the four dollars, because if they voted for five, the bill would probably be thrown out of the other House; and thus, by grasping at too much, the movers of the amendment would lose the bill altogether. Originally, troops had been raised for less than two dollars per month. The pay had since been augmented to three, and was now on the way of being raised to four. He wished to make its advances gradual. If we looked at the situations of other countries, and contemplated the state of their finances, we should be convinced that America paid her troops as well in proportion to her ability as any other people in the world, and that her soldiers had no right to complain.

Mr. MONTGOMERY spoke a few words in favor of an advance to five dollars.

Mr. SCOTT said, that Pennsylvania had some time ago raised a few companies of soldiers for her frontier service, and given them two pounds ten shillings currency per month, which was equal to six dollars and two-thirds. In consequence of this, the companies had been filled with some of the most respectable kind of people in the country. They were quite of a different class from the recruits raised for the Western Army. He wished to try the five dollars. This superior pay was reported to have hurt the Continental recruiting service. He thought it very possible that such had been the case. If Government give the proposed five dollars, the Continental Army might, perhaps, get all the levies which it wanted from these very companies.

Mr. HUNTER would have voted for six dollars.

Mr. BEATTY said, that he was for giving five dollars, from a conviction that it was requisite for the service.

Mr. SMILIE was decidedly for the additional augmentation. The recruits, he said, who had been raised in this city were sad fellows, and not fit to be trusted. Better pay would bring forward better men.

Mr. SMITH said that, as to the rate of labor, good men were hired to work in Vermont for eighteen pounds a year, which is equal to four dollars per month, and out of that they find their own clothes. He thought it a very dangerous plan to raise the wages of soldiers at this time, when every article was above its natural price; because, when things return to their old level, it would be impossible to reduce their wages. The people of Europe had, by their wars, increased the demand for the produce of our farms, and this had raised the wages of labor. The members of Congress had six dollars per day, and it would be no easy matter to alter that, which he seemed to hint might not be quite improper. He thought that high pay would only serve to make the soldiers get drunk. It would be much better to give them some substantial gratification at the end of the service.

Mr. WADSWORTH said that the army, in getting four dollars, got plenty, and he despaired of seeing five dollars pass through that House; but, were they to vote twenty dollars, they never would be able to enlist that class of men whom it was expected five dollars would collect. A member had mentioned, as a proof of the possibility of enlisting the sons of farmers, the instance of a party in one of the New England States, who had formed themselves into a military body, and had gone westward in quest of a settlement, but were cut to pieces by the Indians. He knew this; and he had likewise heard of others who had since gone from the same quarter, and upon the same errand. He had inquired about their characters, and had found, just as he had expected, that they were very honest, good sort of people, but somewhat of a rambling disposition, and not remarkably industrious. As to the notion of enlisting men, and attaching them to their country, by five dollars a month, it would not do. The old Continental Army were very good soldiers, but certainly some of them did not fight for the sake of their country, since they deserted by scores. They were, however, brought back, and fought very well. Their reasons for deserting, he did not pretend to know; but this he knew, that they were very idle and very worthless fellows, which did not hinder them from doing their duty. Mr. W. added, that it was a mistake to propose giving five dollars a month for fear that we should not be able to get recruits. In a short time our communication by sea would be cut off. We would likewise be prevented from emigrations into the back country. Recruits would then be had in the greatest abundance for four dollars a month, as great numbers of people would then be thrown out of employment, and enlist for want of it.

The amendment to the bill, of adding two dollars instead of one, was rejected.

Mr. CLARK then moved, as an amendment of the bill, that there should be an addition of four ounces of bread or flour, and four ounces of meat to each ration.

Mr. HARTLEY was for augmenting the rations. He knew that they were too small. In cultivated countries they might do, but not in the backwoods, where vegetables were not to be had.

Mr. WADSWORTH was convinced that the rations were sufficient unless on a march. He spoke, he said, from experience.

Mr. GILES had been frequently informed by officers in the army, that the rations were all defective. In the backwoods, the soldiers had been often reduced to such distress for want of vegetables, as to go in search of acorns to supply their place.

Mr. FITZSIMONS said, that he had been informed that the principal objection to the rations was the inferior quality of the meat, and that this arose from the leanness of the cattle, as being exhausted by hard driving. Instead, therefore, of a regular increase, it might perhaps be better to provide for accidental contingencies.

Mr. MURRAY moved, and his motion was seconded, to amend the amendment by striking out the words, and "four ounces of meat."

Mr. SMITH said, that an aide-de-camp, who was his relation, and now serving in the army, had wrote him that they were just now well fed, well clothed, in good health, and as good spirits as an army had ever enjoyed. The reason of the common rations of provisions failing in a march, was owing to the waste in cooking. The amendment of Mr. CLARK, and the additional amendment of Mr. MURRAY, were both withdrawn.

The committee now rose and reported the amendment, and the bill and amendment were ordered to lie on the table.

_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed to report whether any, and what, alteration ought to be made in the ration now allowed to the troops of the United States; and that Mr. IRVINE, Mr. DEARBORN, and Mr. HEISTER, be the said committee.

TUESDAY, January 7.

_Flag of the United States._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill sent from the Senate, entitled "An act making an alteration in the Flag of the United States."

Mr. GOODHUE thought it a trifling business, which ought not to engross the attention of the House, when it was their duty to discuss matters of infinitely greater consequence. If we are to alter the flag from thirteen to fifteen stripes, with two additional stars, because Vermont and Kentucky have been added, we may go on adding and altering at this rate for one hundred years to come. It is very likely, before fifteen years elapse, we shall consist of twenty States. The flag ought to be permanent.

Mr. LYMAN was of a different opinion. He thought it of the greatest consequence not to offend the new States.

Mr. THATCHER ridiculed the idea of being at so much trouble, as a consummate specimen of frivolity. At this rate, every State should alter its public seal when an additional county or township was formed. He was sorry to see the House take up their time with such trifles.

Mr. GREENUP considered it of very great consequence to inform the rest of the world that we had now two additional States.

Mr. NILES was very sorry that such a matter should even for a moment have hindered the House from going into more important affairs. He did not think the alteration either worth the trouble of adopting or rejecting; but he supposed that the shortest way to get rid of it was to agree to it, and for that reason, and no other, he advised to pass it as soon as possible.

The committee agreed to it, and the Chairman reported the bill. The House then took it up.

Mr. BOUDINOT thought it of consequence to keep the citizens of Vermont and Kentucky in good humor. They might be affronted at our rejecting the bill.

Mr. GOODHUE said, he felt for the honor of the House, when spending their time on such sort of business. But, since it must be passed, he had only to beg this favor, that it might not appear upon the journals, and go into the world as the first of the bills passed this session.

Mr. MADISON was for the bill passing.

Mr. GILES thought it very proper that the idea should be preserved of the number of our States, and the number of stripes corresponding. The expense was but trifling, compared with that of forming the Government of a new State.

Mr. SMITH said, that this alteration would cost him five hundred dollars, and every vessel in the Union sixty. He could not conceive what the Senate meant by sending them such bills. He supposed that it must be for want of something better to do. He should indulge them, but let us have no more alterations of this sort. Let the flag be permanent.

It was ordered that the bill be read a third time to-morrow.

FRIDAY, January 10.

_French Emigrants from St. Domingo._

Mr. SAMUEL SMITH, from the committee to whom was referred the petition of William Patterson, Samuel Sterrett, and Gustavus Scott, the committee appointed by the Legislature of Maryland to draw and distribute the moneys granted by that State for the relief of the French emigrants from the Island of St. Domingo, made a report:

Mr. S. SMITH said, that there never was a more noble and prompt display of the most exalted feelings, than had been exhibited on this occasion. He believed that such a scene of distress had never before been seen in America. Three thousand fugitives had been at once landed, without the least previous expectation of their arrival. The whole inhabitants instantly assembled, and deputed a committee, of which he was one, to go on board the vessels, and examine their situation. Thirteen thousand dollars were instantly subscribed. Fifteen hundred of these people were quite helpless; three hundred and fifty of them were old men, or women without their husbands, or children without their parents. Some had credit, and some had not. Five hundred of them had been sent to France by the Minister, at the expense of the Republic; the rest remain in this country.

Mr. MADISON wished to relieve the sufferers, but was afraid of establishing a dangerous precedent, which might hereafter be perverted to the countenance of purposes very different from those of charity. He acknowledged, for his own part, that he could not undertake to lay his finger on that article in the Federal Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. And if once they broke the line laid down before them, for the direction of their conduct, it was impossible to say to what lengths they might go, or to what extremities this practice might be carried. He did not agree with the member who spoke last, that nothing like the generosity of America had ever been heard of before. As one example in contradiction to this assertion, he mentioned, that when the city of Lisbon had, in 1755, been overwhelmed by an earthquake, the Parliament of England instantly voted one hundred thousand pounds for the support of the sufferers. In doing this, they had, he believed, acted in unison with the feelings of the British nation, and such feelings did that nation the utmost honor. He likewise imagined, that the Parliament had acted agreeably to the British Constitution, which allowed them an indefinite and absolute right in disposing of the money of their constituents. But as to the American Congress, the case was widely different. He was satisfied that the citizens of the United States possessed an equal degree of magnanimity, generosity, and benevolence, with the people of Britain, but this House certainly did not possess an undefined authority correspondent with that of a British Parliament. He wished that some other mode could be devised for assisting the French sufferers than by an act of Congress. He was in hopes that some other mode, equally effectual, and less exceptionable, might be devised. As to what our Executive Government had already done, as quoted from the official despatches by the gentleman who spoke last, the inference did not apply; for in that emergency, a delay would have been equivalent to a total denial. It had been said, that we owed the French every sentiment of gratitude. It was true; but it was likewise true that we owed them something else than sentiments, for we were indebted to them a very large sum of money. One of the instalments of that debt would be due in a short time, and perhaps it might be safest for Congress to advance the sums now wanted for the French refugees, in part of that debt, and leave it to the decision of the French Ministry whether they would accept of such a payment or not. He did not wish to press this expedient upon the House, but he begged leave to submit it to their consideration; and as he had not yet been able to resolve in his own mind what line of conduct the House ought to pursue, he requested that the discussion of the question might for a short time be deferred.

Mr. CLARK wished that the gentleman who spoke last would be careful of preserving consistency. It was only a few days ago that he had laid before the House a resolution, by which Congress were to indemnify all such citizens of the United States as had suffered losses by the British pirates. He supposed that for this, there would be found as little authority in the articles of the constitution, as for relieving the fugitives from Cape François.

Mr. MADISON, in explanation, replied, that the two cases were widely different. The vessels of America sailed under our flag, and were under our protection, by the law of nations, which the French sufferers unquestionably were not. As to the resolution he had proposed, it was not then before the House, and hence he could not speak to it with propriety. It was very possible that the House might find it wrong, and reject it. He wished not to be misunderstood, for he was sure that every member in that House felt the warmest sympathy with the situation of the sufferers. He would be very glad to find a proper way for their relief.

Mr. NICHOLAS said, that he had not been able to discover upon what authority the House were to grant the proposed donation. If the question should that day come to a vote, which he trusted it would not, he had resolved to give his voice in favor of the sufferers: but, when he returned to his constituents, he would honestly tell them that he considered himself as having exceeded his powers, and so cast himself on their mercy. He felt many obstacles to voting away this money without further deliberation.

Mr. BOUDINOT declared, that he had never been able to discover any difficulty in the matter. By the law of nature, by the law of nations--in a word, by every moral obligation that could influence mankind, we were bound to relieve the citizens of a Republic who were at present our allies, and who had formerly been our benefactors. He could not for a moment endure the idea of a hesitation on such a question. When a number of our fellow-creatures had been cast upon our sympathy, in a situation of such unexampled wretchedness, was it possible that gentlemen could make a doubt whether it was our duty to relieve them? It had been said that the House was not, by the constitution, authorized to give away money for such purposes. He was satisfied, that to refuse the assistance requested, would be to act in direct opposition both to the theory and practice of the constitution. In the first place, as to the practice, it had been said that nothing of this kind had ever occurred before under the Federal Constitution. He was astonished at such an affirmation. Did not the Indians frequently come down to this city, on embassies respecting the regulating of trade, and other business--and did not the Executive, without consulting Congress at all, pay their lodgings for weeks, nay, for whole months together? and was not this merely because the Indians were unable to pay for themselves? Nobody ever questioned the propriety of that act of charity. Again; when prisoners of war were taken, there was no clause in the constitution authorizing Congress to provide for their subsistence: yet it was well known that they would not be suffered to starve. Provision was instantly made for them, before we could tell whether the nation to whom they belonged would pay such expenses, or would not pay them. It was very true that an instalment would soon be due to France, nor did he object to reimbursement in that way, if it could be so obtained. But, in the mean time, relief must be given, for he was convinced that he had still stronger obligations to support the citizens of our allies than either Indians or prisoners of war. In the second place, as to the theory of the constitution, he referred gentlemen to the first clause of the eighth section of it. By that clause Congress were warranted to provide for exigencies regarding _the general welfare_, and he was sure this case came under that description.

Mr. FITZSIMONS thought that it would be expedient to lose as little time as possible in going into the committee. It was hard on the State of Maryland to support of itself such an immense number of people. Besides, the period for which that State had engaged to furnish them with subsistence was expiring; so that it was absolutely necessary to come to an early decision whether the House would assist them or not. Mr. Genet had made a discrimination among the sufferers; some of them he had promised to assist, and others, as _aristocrats_, he had disowned altogether.

Mr. DEXTER read the clause referred to by Mr. BOUDINOT, but could not draw from it any such inference. He was very unwilling to vote against the proposition, and therefore solicited a delay, that he might have leisure to find proper reasons for voting in its favor.

Mr. GILES was averse to precipitation in an affair of such magnitude. The report had been read for a first time to-day; it had then been read for a second time to-day. As if all this had not been sufficient, the House must likewise go into a committee this day. Like the gentleman who had just sat down, he felt many doubts as to the legality of such an act of bounty; and he wished, before he gave a vote on either side of the question, to free himself from these doubts. He considered duty to his constituents as a very solemn trust. Some personal insinuations had been cast out, as if gentlemen who professed constitutional scruples had wished to embarrass the subject. Reflections of this kind could answer no good purpose. Gentlemen (said Mr. G.) appeal to our humanity. The appeal is out of place. That is not the question; but whether, organized as we are, under the constitution, we have a right to make such a grant? He did not understand why an application was made to Congress in particular. It would have been made with greater propriety to the Provincial Assemblies, as their power over the purses of their constituents was more extensive than that of this House over the revenues of the United States.

[The motion for the House resolving itself into a committee immediately was then withdrawn, and the report was committed to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.]

MONDAY, January 13.

_Commerce of the United States._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Report of the Secretary of State on the privileges and restrictions on the commerce of the United States, in foreign countries, when

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) rose and addressed the Chair as follows:

Mr. Chairman: Among the various duties which are assigned by the constitution to the Legislature of the United States, there is, perhaps, none of a more important nature than the regulation of commerce, none more generally interesting to our fellow-citizens, none which more seriously claims our diligent and accurate investigation.

It so essentially involves our navigating, agricultural, commercial, and manufacturing interest, that an apology for the prolixity of the observations which I am about to submit to the committee, will scarcely be requisite.

In the view which I shall take of the question, disengaging the inquiry from all topics of a political nature, I shall strictly confine myself to those which are commercial, and which alone are, in my judgment, properly connected with the subject.

Called upon to decide on propositions, merely commercial, and springing from a report, in its nature limited to commercial regulations, it would be as ill-timed, as it would be irregular, to mingle with the discussion considerations of a political nature. I shall, accordingly, reject from the inquiry every idea which has reference to the Indians, the Algerines, or the Western posts. Whenever those subjects require our deliberations, I shall not yield to any member in readiness to vindicate the honor of our country, and to concur in such measures as our best interests may demand.

This line of procedure will, I trust, be deemed by those gentlemen who follow me, the only proper one, and that the debate will be altogether confined to commercial views; these will of themselves open a field of discussion sufficiently spacious, without the intervention of arguments derived from other sources. It would indeed argue a weakness of ground in the friends of the propositions, and imply a distrust of the merits of their cause, were they compelled to bolster it up with such auxiliaries, and to resort for support to arguments, not resulting from the nature of the subject, but from irrelative and extraneous considerations.

The propositions, as well as the report, being predicated upon facts and principles having relation to our commerce and navigation with foreign countries, by those facts and principles, and those alone, ought the propositions to stand or fall.

It will not be denied that this country is at present in a very delicate crisis, and one requiring dispassionate reflection, cool and mature deliberation. It will be much to be regretted then, if passion should usurp the place of reason, if superficial, narrow, and prejudiced views should mislead the public councils from the true path of national interest.

The report of the Secretary of State, on the privileges and restrictions on the commerce of the United States in foreign countries is now before the committee. The tendency of that report (whatever may have been the design of the reporter) appears to be to induce a false estimate of the comparative condition of our commerce with certain foreign nations, and to urge the Legislature to adopt a scheme of retaliating, regulations, restrictions, and exclusions.

The most striking contrast which the performance evidently aims at, is between Great Britain and France. For this reason, and as these are the two Powers with whom we have the most extensive relations in trade, I shall, by a particular investigation of the subject, endeavor to lay before the committee an accurate and an impartial comparison of the commercial systems of the two countries in reference to the United States, as a test of the solidity of the inferences which are attempted to be established by the report. A fair comparison can only be made with an eye to what may be deemed the permanent system of the countries in question. The proper epoch for it, therefore, will precede the commencement of the pending French Revolution.

The commercial regulations of France during the period of the Revolution have been too fluctuating, too much influenced by momentary impulses, and, as far as they have looked towards this country with a favorable eye, too much manifesting an object of the moment, which cannot be mistaken to consider them as a part of a system. But though the comparison will be made with principal reference to the condition of our trade with France and Great Britain, antecedent to the existing revolution, the regulations of the subsequent period will perhaps not be passed over altogether unnoticed.

The table which I have before me comprises the principal features of the subject within a short compass. It is the work of a gentleman of considerable commercial knowledge, and I believe may be relied on for its correctness. An attentive reference to it will, with some supplementary remarks, convey a just conception of the object; a view to conciseness and simplicity has excluded from it all articles (the production and manufactures of the United States) which are not of considerable importance.

Accustomed as our ears have been to a constant panegyric on the generous policy of France towards this country in commercial relations, and to as constant a philippic on the unfriendly, illiberal, and persecuting policy of Great Britain towards us in the same relations, we naturally expect to find in a table which exhibits their respective systems, numerous discriminations in that of France in our favor, and many valuable privileges granted to us, which are refused to other foreign countries; in that of Great Britain frequent discriminations to our prejudice, and a variety of privileges refused to us which are granted to other foreign nations. But an inspection of the table will satisfy every candid mind, that the reverse of what has been supposed is truly the case--that neither in France nor the French West Indies, is there more than one solitary and important distinction in our favor, (I mean the article of fish oil,) either with regard to our exports thither, our imports from thence, or our shipping; that both in Great Britain and the British West Indies, there are several material distinctions in our favor, with regard both to our exports thither and to our imports from thence, and, as it respects Great Britain, with regard also to our shipping; that in the market of Great Britain, a preference is secured to six of our most valuable staples, by considerably higher duties on the rival articles of other foreign countries; that our navigation thither is favored by our ships, when carrying our own productions, being put upon as good a footing as their own ships, and by the exemption of several of our productions, when carried in our ships, from duties which are paid on the like articles of other foreign countries carried in the ships of those countries; and that several of our productions may be carried from the United States to the British West Indies, while the like productions cannot be carried thither from any other foreign country; and that several of the productions of those countries may be brought from thence to the United States, which cannot be carried from thence to any other foreign country.

TUESDAY, January 14.

_Commerce of the United States._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Report of the Secretary of State on the privileges and restrictions on the commerce of the United States in foreign countries; when Mr. MADISON rose in reply to Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina.

Mr. M. began by observing that he had expected, from what was intimated yesterday, the sequel of what was then said against the resolutions before the committee; but, as there was a silence in that quarter, and no other member has risen on either side of the question, he himself would request the attention of the committee.

It had been much pressed that, in the discussion of this subject, it should be viewed in its commercial relations only. He was perfectly willing to meet every objection that could be urged on that ground; but, as he conceived it impossible to do full justice to the interests of the United States without taking some collateral considerations into view, he should be obliged, in the course of his remarks, to point at the political disposition and conduct of some of the nations of Europe towards this country.

The propositions immediately before the committee turned on the question, whether any thing ought to be done at this time, in the way of commercial regulations, towards vindicating and advancing our national interests. Perhaps it might be made a question with some, whether, in any case, legislative regulations of commerce were consistent with its nature and prosperity.

He professed himself to be a friend to the theory which gives to industry a free course, under the impulse of individual interest and the guidance of individual sagacity. He was persuaded that it would be happy for all nations, if the barriers erected by prejudice, by avarice, and by despotism, were broken down, and a free intercourse established among them. Yet to this, as to all other general rules, there might be exceptions; and the rule itself required what did not exist--that it should be general.

To illustrate this observation, he referred to the Navigation Act of Great Britain, which, not being counterbalanced by any similar acts on the part of rival nations, had secured to Great Britain no less than eleven-twelfths of the shipping and seamen employed in her trade. It is stated that, in 1660, when the British act passed, the foreign tonnage was to the British, as one to four; in 1700, less than one to six; in 1725, as one to nineteen; in 1750, as one to twelve; in 1774, nearly the same. At the commencement of the period, the tonnage was but 95,266 tons; at the end of it, 1,136,162.

As another illustration, he mentioned the case where two countries happened to be in such a relation to each other, that the one, by discouraging the manufactures of the other, might not only invigorate its own, but transplant the manufacturers themselves. Here the gain would be a clear one, and the effect evidently consistent with the principle of the theory.

To allow trade to regulate itself is not, therefore, to be admitted as a maxim universally sound. Our own experience has taught us that, in certain cases, it is the same thing with allowing one nation to regulate it for another. Were the United States, in fact, in commercial intercourse with one nation only, and to oppose no restrictions whatever to a system of foreign restrictions, they would, of necessity, be deprived of all share in the carriage, although their vessels might be able to do it cheapest, as well as of the only resources for defence on that side where they must always be most exposed to attack. A small burden only in foreign ports on American vessels, and a perfect equality of foreign vessels with our own in our own ports, would gradually banish the latter altogether.

The subject, as had been remarked on a former occasion, was not a novel one; it was coeval with our political birth, and has at all times exercised the thoughts of reflecting citizens. As early as the year succeeding the peace, the effect of the foreign policy, which began to be felt in our trade and navigation, excited universal attention and inquietude. The first effort thought of was an application of Congress to the States for a grant of power, for a limited time, to regulate our foreign commerce, with a view to control the influence of unfavorable regulations in some cases, and to conciliate an extension of favorable ones in others. From some circumstances then incident to our situation, and particularly from a radical vice in the then political system of the United States, the experiment did not take effect.

The States next endeavored to effect their purpose by separate but concurrent regulations. Massachusetts opened a correspondence with Virginia and other States, in order to bring about the plan. Here, again, the effort was abortive.

Out of this experience grew the measures which terminated in the establishment of a Government competent to the regulation of our commercial interests and the vindication of our commercial rights.

As these were the first objects of the people in the steps taken for establishing the present Government, they were universally expected to be among the first fruits of its operation. In this expectation, the public were disappointed. An attempt was made in different forms, and received the repeated sanction of this branch of the Legislature, but they expired in the Senate--not, indeed, as was alleged, from a dislike to the attempt altogether, but the modifications given to it. It has not appeared, however, that it was ever renewed in a different form in that House, and for some time it has been allowed to sleep in both.

If the reasons which originally prevailed against measures such as those now proposed had weight in them, they can no longer furnish a pretext for opposition.

When the subject was discussed in the first Congress, at New York, it was said that we ought to try the effect of a generous policy towards Great Britain; that we ought to give time for negotiating a treaty of commerce; that we ought to await the close of negotiations for explaining and executing the treaty of peace. We have now waited a term of more than four years. The treaty of peace remains unexecuted on her part, though all pretext for delay has been removed by the steps taken on ours; no treaty of commerce is either in train or in prospect; instead of relaxations in former articles complained of, we suffer new and aggravated violations of our rights.

In the view which he took of the subject, he called the attention of the committee particularly to the subject of navigation, of manufactures, and of the discrimination proposed in the motion between some nations and others.

On the subject of navigation, he observed that we were prohibited by the British laws from carrying to Great Britain the produce of other countries from their ports, or our own produce from the ports of other countries, or the produce of other countries from our own ports, or to send our own produce from our own or other ports in the vessels of other countries. This last restriction was, he observed, felt by the United States at the present moment. It was, indeed, the practice of Great Britain, sometimes to relax her Navigation Act so far, in time of war, as to permit to neutral vessels a circuitous carriage; but, as yet, the act was in full force against the use of them for transporting the produce of the United States.

On the other hand, the laws of the United States allowed Great Britain to bring into their ports any thing she might please, from her own or from other ports, and in her own or in other vessels.

In the trade between the United States and the British West Indies, the vessels of the former were under an absolute prohibition, whilst British vessels in that trade enjoyed all the privileges granted to others, even the most favored nations, in their trade with us. The inequality in this case was the more striking, as it was evident that the West Indies were dependent on the United States for the supplies essential to them, and that the circumstances which secured to the United States this advantage, enabled their vessels to transport the supplies on far better terms than could be done by British vessels.

It might be regarded (he observed) as a general rule, that, where one nation consumed the necessaries of life produced by another, the consuming nation was dependent on the producing one. On the other hand, where the consumption consisted of superfluities, the producing nation was dependent on the consuming one. The United States were in the fortunate situation of enjoying both these advantages over Great Britain. They supply a part of her dominions with the necessaries of life; they consume superfluities which give bread to her people in another part. Great Britain, therefore, is under a double dependence on the commerce of the United States. She depends on them for what she herself consumes; she depends on them for what they consume. In proportion as a nation manufactures luxuries must be its disadvantages in contests of every sort with its customers. The reason is obvious. What is a luxury to the consumer is a necessary to the manufacturer. By changing a fashion or disappointing a fancy only, bread may be taken from the mouths of thousands whose industry is devoted to the gratification of artificial wants. He mentioned the case of a petition from a great body of buckle makers, presented a few years ago to the Prince of Wales, complaining of the use of strings instead of buckles in the shoes, and supplicating his Royal Highness, as giving the law to fashions, to save them from want and misery by discontinuing the new one. It was not (he observed) the Prince who petitioned the manufacturers to continue to make the buckles, but the manufacturers who petitioned their customer to buy them. The relation was similar between the American customers and the British manufacturers; and if a law were to pass for putting a stop to the use of their superfluities, or a stop were otherwise to be put to it, it would quickly be seen from which the distress and supplications would flow. Suppose that Great Britain received from us alone the whole of the necessaries she consumes, and that our market alone took off the luxuries with which she paid for them: here the dependence would be complete, and we might impose whatever terms we please on the exchange. This, to be sure, is not absolutely the case; but, in proportion as it is the case, her dependence is on us. The West Indies, however, are an example of complete dependence. They cannot subsist without our food. They cannot flourish without our lumber and our use of their rum. On the other hand, we depend on them for not a single necessary, and can supply ourselves with their luxuries from other sources. Sugar is the only article about which there was ever a question; and he was authorized to say that there was not, at the most, one-sixth of our consumption supplied from the British islands. In time of war or famine the dependence of the West Indies is felt in all its energy. It is sometimes such as to appeal to our humanity as well as our interest for relief. At this moment the Governor of Jamaica is making proclamation of their distresses. If ever, therefore, there was a case where one country could dictate to another the regulations of trade between them, it is the case of the United States and the British West Indies. And yet the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. SMITH) had considered it as a favor that we were allowed to send our provisions in British bottoms, and in these only, to the West Indies.

WEDNESDAY, January 15.

_Commerce of the United States._

A proposition being made to go into a Committee of the Whole on Mr. MADISON's resolutions,

The House then went into committee.

Mr. FORREST, after a long pause, observed, that, as no other person appeared disposed to rise on the occasion, although he felt himself unequal to doing that justice to the subject which many others were, yet he considered it his duty to offer a few remarks which had occurred to him in the course of the debate.

In all our discussions of commercial affairs, the principal point to be kept in view was the promotion of the essential and permanent interests of our country, keeping in mind this maxim, (as true in respect to nations as individuals,) that there is no friendship in trade. He then entered into a consideration of our commercial connection with Great Britain, and observed that we should avoid letting our former prejudices, or those arising from recent transactions, influence our judgments. We should not regard the favoring of the French or British nation, but study to do that which would tend to the promotion of our own commerce and the interest of our own navigation. In this pursuit, we must keep in view our relative situation with European nations, particularly those of France and Great Britain, and more particularly the latter, with whom the proposed resolutions contemplate a change. Of all possible times, (said he,) I believe this the most improper to try the experiment.

If the British Government have been instrumental in letting the Algerines loose upon us; if their privateers commit acts of piracy upon our neutral flag, let it at least, in the first instance, be made matter of negotiation. Neutral nations must suffer some inconvenience; and it will be much better policy to come forward at once and say we are at war. We will not submit to vexatious insults, when they are too much to suffer, rather than make this commercial warfare, by which it is impossible, in the course of human events, but that we must be much the greatest sufferers; and how humiliating would it be, after trial, even to propose to make it a drawn battle!

Let us examine the subject. Of the whole fair trade of Great Britain, taking their imports and exports into view, their trade with the United States will be found to be one-sixth, or thereabouts. Take the imports and exports of the United States, and you will find that full one-half the value of our whole trade is with Great Britain and her dependencies. Who will suffer most? She, by the interruption of one-sixth, with the means of getting most of the articles we supply, on as good terms, from other nations, with great internal sources of revenue, and a people used to bear any taxes asked of them; or we, with an interruption of one-half our trade and commerce, not so well off with respect to internal resources, and the complaints of our citizens, not accustomed to heavy taxation? Let those who rely upon the effect it will have on the English manufacturers and artisans, look back to 1773 and 1774, and recollect the effect it then had.

But there is one circumstance that should have weight with every mind. It will be found that three-fourths of all the impost revenue of this country are derived from our commerce with the British. Shall we hazard an entire loss of this revenue? And if lost or greatly interrupted, from whence shall we supply its deficiency, without, at least, in their minds, oppressing the people of this country? I am not a stockholder or a bankholder. I am too poor to be either, and therefore can have no separate interest in view, and, where I am known, I shall not be charged with partiality to Great Britain; but I hope I am free from such unwarrantable prejudices as to lead me into measures to the injury of my country.

I lay it down as a principle not to be controverted, that our intercourse with Great Britain, in a commercial point, (I mean, putting the mode of carriage out of account, and confining it to the importation and exportation, and restrictions and bounties thereon,) is as favorable as we can expect, and, taken in the aggregate, full as favorable as with France, their Navigation Act excepted.

With respect to navigation, I have long thought it ought not to be submitted to; but are we to expect, at a moment like this, acting (as they will certainly believe we shall) under the impulse of resentment, they will waive an atom of their Navigation Act to the result of our resolutions? It is vain. Let us not hazard that which is certain, which the safeguard of experience has proved, for that we know not of.

It has been mentioned as a grievance that our produce is sent to France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, &c., and that our imports are, in a great degree, confined to Great Britain. Our merchants must pay their debts, and surely it is for their interest to sell their articles for the highest price they will bring, and purchase where they can obtain cheapest. Our produce is sent to those countries to pay our debts in Great Britain.

There has been nothing to lead me to a judgment how the blanks are to be filled. If, with such high duties as to prohibit the articles, our chief source of revenue will be wiped off, and the consequence may, nay, must be, direct taxation. If low, it will only exhibit, without gratifying, a resentment, and the consumers of these articles, the yeomanry of this country, will have to pay the tax. If it is said that it is intended to encourage our own factories, let us select those which we can manufacture, and lay prohibitory duties on the foreign articles.

Mr. F. reprobated the idea of suffering partial or merely political motives to influence in the discussion of the subject. Commercial subjects ought to be considered in an independent point of view. He hoped, therefore, that the committee would endeavor to divest themselves of every incidental impression, originating in impulses from particular events, and contemplate the question simply on its own merits.

Mr. FITZSIMONS declared that, in the course of this discussion, he had not heard one single argument advanced which, admitting the premises to be true, could persuade him to give his consent to the first of the resolutions. It was possible that he might agree to some of those that followed. He was perfectly convinced that a judicious system of regulations would be of infinite advantage to the maritime interest of America. He was of opinion that the first resolution was by far too indefinite. The substance of the whole arguments advanced on both sides tended only to establish a fact, which was already perfectly well known, that the Governments of Europe act, in regard to the commerce of the United States, just as they think proper. The lesson was a very good one, and he trusted that, with a proper attention to temporary circumstances, this country would improve by it.

Mr. MADISON regarded the objection of the gentleman as entirely of a new kind. He had refused his consent to the first of the resolutions, because it was indefinite. But the propositions laid before the House a few days ago with respect to the Algerines were fully as indefinite, and yet the gentleman who spoke last had recommended them. The order of procedings in the present question is perfectly candid and regular, consonant to the practice of the House, and the practice of the gentleman himself.

Mr. AMES wished, that gentlemen, instead of indefinite declamation, would lay their finger on each particular wrong that Britain had done to us. He did not know of any particular advantage that we had derived in our commerce with France. He wished to discountenance a spirit of revenge, and to ascertain on what side the benefits of our commerce lay, and wherein they consisted. He did not like unfair comparisons,

Mr. NICHOLAS said, that he would not, at this time of day, attempt to detain the House any further than by just observing that the practice of _comparisons_ had originated among the gentlemen who opposed the resolutions.

At this stage, the committee rose, and had leave to sit again.

THURSDAY, January 16.

_Commerce of the United States._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Report of the Secretary of State on the privileges and restrictions on the commerce of the United States in foreign countries, when

Mr. NICHOLAS rose and spoke as follows:

Mr. Chairman: I feel a great embarrassment in speaking on this subject, from a distrust of my ability to treat properly its acknowledged importance, and from the apparent expectation of the audience. I feel too, as the member from Maryland who spoke yesterday did, from the imputation of motives, well knowing that the Representatives of my country are industriously reported to be enemies of the Government, and promoters of anarchy, and that the present measure is imputed to these principles. It is somewhat remarkable, that farther north we are charged with selfishness, and want of attachment to the general welfare, for a supposed opposition to measures of the import of the present. I mention this contradictory inference, to show that the shameful designs charged upon us, are not proved by the fact, and to place the guilt where it only exists, in the malignity of the accuser.

It is a commonly received opinion, that trade should be intrusted to the direction of those immediately interested in it, and that the actual course of it is the best which it could take; this principle is by no means a safe one, and, as applied to the trade of America, is extremely fallacious. It can never be just, where the beginning and growth of a commerce have not been free from all possible constraint, as to its direction; as that can never be called a business of election which has been created under foreign influence. The manner in which America was first peopled, and the nurture she received from Great Britain, afford the most striking contrast to the requisite before mentioned. The first inhabitants of America were educated in Great Britain, and brought with them all the wants of their own country, to be gratified chiefly by the productions of that country. Aided by British capital, in the settlement of the wilderness, and depending on the same means for the conveyance of its produce to a place of consumption, it was inevitable, that the demand for British commodities should keep pace with the improvement of the country. In the commencement of American population and its early stages, there does not appear to have been a chance of comparing the advantages of commercial connection with different countries, and it will be found that in its progress, it was still more restrained. In the last years of the dependence of America on Great Britain, the principal part of America was occupied by large trading companies, composed of people in Great Britain, and conducted by factors, who sunk large sums in the hands of the farmers, to attach them to their respective stores, by which means competition was precluded, and a dependence on the supplies of those stores completely established. Since the Revolution, the business has been conducted by persons in the habit of dependence on Great Britain, and who had no other capital than the manufactures of that country furnished on credit. The business is still almost wholly conducted by the same means. In no stage of its growth then, does there appear to have been a power in the consumer to have compared the productions of Great Britain with those of any other country, as to their quality or price, and therefore there is no propriety in calling the course of trade, the course of its choice.

The subject before the committee naturally divides itself into navigation and manufactures, in speaking of which, I shall offer some other considerations, to show that the same effects are by no means to be expected from the greatest commercial wisdom in individuals, which are in the power of the general concert of the community; the one having in view profit on each separate transaction, the other, promoting an advantageous result to the whole commerce of the country.