Chapter LXIII: Introduction (62)

Mr. TRACY quoted something which Mr. NICHOLAS had said. That gentleman immediately answered, that he had been misquoted. I know, said Mr. TRACY, as well as that gentleman, what he said. Mr. NICHOLAS got up a second time, and repeated what he affirmed were the words which he had really spoken. He did not say so before, said Mr. TRACY, but I am content that he should say so now. I only beg that he may not interrupt me. As to the motion for striking out one-half of the resolution, Mr. TRACY looked upon it as out of all propriety. The PRESIDENT had sent a letter of two lines, enclosing a report from the Secretary of War. To refer the former without the latter, would be like referring to any person the superscription of a letter, but adding, at the same time, you must not look at the inside of it. Mr. T. did not care from whom the report came. If it contained useful information, that was all he wanted to know. And, supposing it had been sent from a Democratic society, that of itself would with Mr. T. be no reason to refuse it a reference. He then observed how much more deference had been paid by that House to Democratic societies than was now paid by some gentlemen to the PRESIDENT. Much care had been taken that a vote of censure should not be passed on them. It looked as if gentlemen wanted to grasp all power within this body. The amendment was wrong in point both of principle and practice. To refer a mere superscription, (for the letter of the PRESIDENT was nothing more,) would look strange enough. The resolution, as amended, was in a state of hostility with common sense.

Mr. LYMAN was in favor of the amendment for striking out the words in the latter part of the motion. He thought it improper to refer to a Committee of the whole House the report of the late Secretary of War, because it was of an amphibious nature. It was not a mere official statement of supposed facts, but the reasoning on these facts. He was sensible that precedents could be found on the journals, which sanctioned a commitment of similar reports; but, for his part, he had ever thought the practice improper, and he must meet the question as it appeared to him. He said, that the constitution authorized the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, nay, it made it a duty incumbent on him, to give information, from time to time, of the state of the Union. He was also equally required to suggest, for the consideration of the House, whatever he thought expedient; but there was a most material difference between communicating information, and argument or inferences deduced from it. The official information would always, without doubt, be reports from the different departments, and, therefore, would have the credit and weight which was due to it; but whenever plans or arguments were communicated, they should have the responsibility attached to the signature of the PRESIDENT. What was the case in the present instance? Had the Executive avowed the plan of the Secretary of War, or his reasoning? He was persuaded, from the communication itself, that the PRESIDENT did not at all espouse the report as his own wishes or opinion; for there was nothing in the Message implying that the report had been officially required, or that any one sentiment was from the high authority of the Executive. As to the Secretary of War, Mr. L. had a respect for him, and believed that he had discharged the duties of his office with ability and fidelity, but it implied no censure to decline hearing his arguments. All that the House wanted was facts and information. They were fully competent to the suitable deductions. As to the observation of his colleague, that the House were abridging the powers of the Executive, it was so far from being the case, they were only reclaiming what had been remitted and disused; and he had no fears that they would abuse it.

Mr. HILLHOUSE thought that gentlemen were spending time in a very trifling way. It is the duty of the House to hear information from every quarter. He was against the amendment.

Mr. J. WADSWORTH said, that some gentlemen had been offended at the comparison in the report between the North American settlers and the Spaniards. Mr. W. remarked, that if gentlemen would look into two historians, the one of Virginia and the other of New England, they would see bad enough work. If the Spaniards, or any other nation in history, had acted worse, he was much at a loss to comprehend what their proceedings could have been. As to Pennsylvania, much had been said of the purchases from the Indians of their lands; but where was the difference between shooting an Indian and catching him in a trap? And, as to the conduct of the Pennsylvanians, when they drove the Indians back to Pittsburg, that was sufficiently cruel. We have murdered them from the beginning, said Mr. W. As to the question on the amendment, he knew perfectly well that the PRESIDENT had acted exactly conformable both to the constitution and the practice of the House. To refuse committing the report of the Secretary along with the Message, would be an affront, not to the Secretary, but to the PRESIDENT.

Mr. MADISON looked upon the expression, as to the Spaniards, as being extremely exceptionable. It had escaped, perhaps, inadvertently. The Secretary would not have used it in a report to the House, nor would the PRESIDENT have employed it, as from himself, in any Message to the House. Mr. M. was for the amendment. It was natural enough that the Secretary, when communicating his sentiments in a private manner, should make use of illustrations for enforcing his opinion that he would not have adopted in an official paper.

Mr. PAGE was persuaded that the Report from the Secretary of War contained nothing new, or, if new, nothing which may not as well be used when in the hands of members, as when in those of a Committee of the Whole. If the amendment had been to throw the Message under the table, more warmth could not have been shown, in charging the opposers of the motion for reference to a Committee of the Whole with indecency to the PRESIDENT, and with a design at usurpation of his power, &c. It is said, that a jealousy has been betrayed by some members of an encroachment on the privileges of this House. Surely, a most unnecessary and unreasonable suspicion has also been betrayed by others, of a design in the gentlemen who supported the motion of Mr. NICHOLAS, to encroach on the powers of the Executive. Expressions have been used not consistent with decency and order. Gentlemen have been charged with a factious spirit, favoring indecent remonstrances, and with slighting and treating contemptuously the Message from the PRESIDENT. Some members have, at another time, been charged with speaking, not to the House, but to their constituents, in order to gain their votes at an approaching election. Mr. P. said, that his respect for the Government, and for the PRESIDENT, was equal to that of any man in the House. He was far from wishing to reflect on the late Secretary of War. Mr. P. had never, by any vote, censured his conduct, and he entertained no wish for his resignation. But he was at liberty to think the report given to the PRESIDENT wrong, the communication of it to the House as unnecessary, and even if necessary, as sufficiently acted upon when printed and put into the hands of the members. He might have no doubt respecting the constitutionality of the Message from the PRESIDENT, or of the report of the Secretary to him. He might require no precedents from the Journals to prove that the motion for referring that Message was perfectly in order. But he might doubt whether the substance of the report was of such a nature as to require the consideration of the Committee of the Whole. He might also doubt whether the report was of sufficient importance to require the most mature consideration. There might be circumstances attending the manner of its introduction, as some members allege that there were, which render the report improper to be referred to a Committee of the Whole. It would be a precedent for referring every Message, and that would be attended with unnecessary delay. It will be paying a superfluous compliment. If the information came from the poorest citizen, and was sufficiently important, he would refer it, but though it came from the PRESIDENT or Senate, and contained nothing which, in his opinion, required a commitment, he should vote against it. Mr. P. was for the amendment of Mr. NICHOLAS.

Mr. S. SMITH remarked, that the principal objection made by the gentleman who spoke last, (Mr. PAGE,) to the commitment of the report was, that it contains nothing new. The observation will apply with equal justness to a great part of what has been said on the subject before the House. He wished, therefore, that the question might be immediately taken.

The amendment was negatived without a division, but by a very great majority. The motion, as it originally stood, was then put and carried.

TUESDAY, January 27.

_Reduction of Salaries._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the motion of the twenty-third instant, "that a committee be appointed to bring in a bill or bills to amend the act entitled 'An act for establishing the salaries of the Executive Officers of Government, with their assistants and clerks;' and an act 'for allowing compensation to the members of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, and to the officers of both Houses;' and to reduce all such salaries as, in the opinion of the said committee, after having made due inquiry, ought to be reduced."

Mr. CLAIBORNE said: A worthy gentleman from Maryland, the other day, suggested an amendment to the proposition now before you, which I understood to contemplate the increase of some salaries; and, if that gentleman can reconcile it to himself and his constituents, let him move and carry it, if he can. For my part, I am pleased with the proposition as it is, and yet it may have great imperfections. It is very common for fond parents to be blind to the imperfections of their own offspring; and, as this is a production of my own, it is probable that I may be under the same delusive prejudices, but I hope that cheerful acquiescence which I have always shown to the majority, has sufficiently evinced that I am no bigot to my own opinions. I said, the other day, that I was determined, if the proposition must die, it should be by assassination; but as, in this, a degree of guilt is implied, and might be attended with serious consequences to those concerned in it, I should be satisfied to give it a fair trial, and, if it must die, that it may be by legal and fair adjudication, or, in other words, after full and fair discussion of its merits.

We now have fairly before us a proposition that contemplates a redress of these grievances, which, since the adoption of the present form of Government, have been a subject of grievous complaint and heartburning amongst citizens of the United States. Many of them, and, I believe, a very great majority, conceive that the exorbitant salaries established to the Legislative, Executive, Judiciary, and their assistants, are not consistent with, or can possibly contribute to the existence or well-being of a Republican Government, which, in its nature, holds out the idea of equality and justice, but which, in the present mode of administration, cannot fail to have a direct opposite tendency, inasmuch as the very profuse salaries that all who have the good fortune to get places under the pay and influence of the present Administration, if they make a prudent use of them, must ultimately enrich and place them in a situation so far above the vast bulk of the citizens, whose industrious fingers are not permitted a single dip into those very coffers which have been swelled by filching a little from that hard-gotten pittance already far inadequate to the necessary but very ordinary subsistence of their families, as at last to endanger the very existence or shadow of this glorious and dear-bought Government, that has already raised the drooping and once-dejected heads of the poor American citizens, who now glory more in having thrown off that subordination that was assumed and exercised over them under the late detestable Monarchical Government, by their rulers, or public officers, than even in their lives and fortunes. Men begin to know the inherent rights of human nature. They have dipped into and tasted a little of the sweets of political regeneration, and, amongst all classes of your citizens, you may discover a zeal that amounts to enthusiasm, that lives and burns and grows almost to a prodigy. Instances are not wanting, sir, to evince that thousands of those who were not fond of this Government at its adoption, are now, on all occasions, ready to step forth in its support, and the laws that are passed consistent therewith. But this does, by no means, argue that they will submit for ever to repeated abuses of the Government, which may ultimately tend to its overthrow; and exorbitant salaries, with other profuse appropriations of the public money, at a time when the nation is groaning under an immense weight of foreign and domestic debt, which (calculating upon the blessings of peace, and of course, a very increasing revenue, not reasonably to be calculated on so long a time,) it is agreed on all hands will take a term not less than thirty-two years to extinguish. Here I shall again be told, that the price of house-rent, and every other necessary of life, has increased, and may continue to increase, so as to drive all your officers out of your service. To this I beg leave to answer, that, if you continue such high salaries, or increase them, as in some instances it is asked, and because of the present enhanced price of the necessaries of life, I think the evil will increase in proportion to the immense sum of money that you throw into circulation, for a redundancy of that, or any thing else, will always diminish the value; and, if the present custom of disbursing the public money is persisted in, the whole wealth of the United States must shortly centre in and about Philadelphia! But, sir, by the adoption of public economy, we may shortly become able to obviate this great evil, and make our disbursements more diffusive, by paying out money to those who have demands upon your justice, distributed over the United States, if any but those who reside around the seat of Government have any demand upon your justice or goodness. I am apprised that the proposition is a very unpopular one here, and that many will perhaps knit their brows at me; but, sir, when I entered into public life, it was without any cringing views. I meant not to court smiles, or fear frowns, and I had no doubt but I should meet my share of both. When I gain the former by proper conduct, I have pleasure in it; when the latter by improper conduct, I am sorry for it. But it will be much to be lamented if ever we see the day when the people shall be suffered to complain from year to year of any grievance, and their Representatives shall be ashamed, or afraid, to make those grievances known, or ask redress, lest they be laughed out of countenance, or lose favor at Court. But so hardy am I, if you prefer that expression, that, while I have the honor of a seat in this House, none of those considerations shall ever deter me from stepping forth in their behalf; but, be the result of this proposition what it may, I now warn you against evils that _may_ come, as you have been heretofore warned of evils that _have_ come, for the obligations of power and submission are reciprocal. It is as much your duty to pass wholesome laws, as it is the duty of the people to obey them. And now, having done my duty, I shall take my seat, content to abide the result, but hope a committee will be appointed.

Mr. NICHOLAS declared that he would be very willing to vote for the appointment of such a committee, if he could see any good purpose to be derived from it, or if the gentleman who laid the resolution on the table could give him any information that tended to prove its expediency. For his own part he had but a small family, and of that he had left one-half behind him in Virginia, yet he found that his allowance as a member of the Legislature was barely sufficient for supporting this half of his family, though he lived with as much economy as he ever had done in his life. He was certain that he should not take one shilling of public money home with him to Virginia. He requested gentlemen to remember that it was not the present Congress who had given six dollars per day to themselves, but that it had been fixed by their predecessors, and fixed at a time when living was fifty per cent. cheaper than it is now.

Mr. BOUDINOT observed, that he should not have troubled the committee on this question, had it not been for several considerations particularly applicable to himself. He was as impartial on the present debate as any member on the floor. After the close of this session of Congress, he never expected to receive a farthing of public money again, and therefore no interest of his own could sway his judgment improperly to object against the resolution on the table. He had been among the number of those members who originally were for fixing the compensation of members of Congress at a less sum than six dollars; not because he thought it beyond the amount of their expenses, but, from an idea of the then deranged state of the finances, and that, if sacrifices were to be made, they should begin with this House. He appealed to his uniform conduct for six years past, to prove that he had always opposed an increase of salaries or other public expenses, when the interest of the Union did not require it. He did not doubt that the gentleman who brought forward this resolution thought he was doing his duty in advocating it; and Mr. B. thought it was equally the duty of the committee to be convinced that they were not wasting their time in unnecessarily proceeding in business, without having some foundation for rational inquiry.

Mr. B. did not doubt but there were uninformed individuals, who might object to six dollars per day; but he was confident that the well-informed among the citizens of the United States, and those who reflected on the subject, would think (at the present day at least) it was not more than would barely pay the reasonable expenses of gentlemen who attended to their duty here in a proper manner. Almost every article of consumption was from twenty to thirty per cent. higher now than it was at the commencement of the Government.

The Constitution of the United States, as the act of the people and the public voice, contemplated a compensation to the members of Congress. Did not this mean something more than the bare discharge of their expenses? Yet Congress had not gone beyond it.

When Congress sat at New York, Mr. B. said that he was in a situation more favorable in point of expense than any gentleman on the floor, who did not reside in that city. He boarded with a near relation, and was in a manner in his own family; and, although he paid the usual price of boarding as at other places, yet there were a thousand nameless small articles which saved him many advances. He was within sixteen miles of his own family, from whence he received many things that prevented his laying out money. During three sessions, he kept an exact and faithful account of his expenditures, and, at the end of that time, the balance was but 43s. 4d.; but on which side of the question his memory did not allow him to say. At present, he was also under very peculiar advantages, yet he was confident that, at the end of the session, he should not have any balance in his favor from his compensation as a member. Mr. B. appealed to every gentleman's own knowledge, and particularly to the gentleman who made the motion, if he thought that what he received would more than pay his expenses.

Gentlemen were often crying out against an Aristocracy in this country; yet measures of this kind tended to establish one, by reducing the compensation of members, so that no citizen but the rich and affluent could attend as a Representative in Congress. This certainly was the most effectual way of bringing about a dangerous Aristocracy in the United States. Should not men of abilities, though in the middle walks of life, be encouraged to come forward and yield their services to their country, without being dependent on any person or set of men whatever? Is it not sufficient that their time and talents are given to the public? Must they pay their expenses too?

Mr. B. was aware that the resolution proposed related to the officers of Government as well as members of Congress, but he had confined his remarks to the last, as the part of the subject he was best acquainted with. He begged gentlemen to look around and point out the public officer who received more than a reasonable reward for his services. Professional men, of the first abilities, were absolutely necessary to carry on the public business; and could any one, fit for his office, be shown who could not do full as well, if not much better, in the exercise of his profession in private life than he did in the public service, if pecuniary matters were his only object? In short, (Mr. B. said,) this House was placed between Scylla and Charybdis. The public officers were complaining, and even resigning, for want of sufficient compensation for their services; on the other hand, an attempt was now made to reduce their salaries still lower, on the supposed clamors of the people. Mr. B. did not believe they could be denominated those of the people; neither did he see any evidence of the fact. He did not consider the complaints of a few individuals as the public voice. Ought not the gentlemen to come forward with some kind of calculations or estimates to have shown that certain salaries were too high, or more than the services performed were entitled to? This had not been done; but the committee were urged, at this important moment, to proceed to an inquiry, which every gentleman on the floor already knew as well as he could do by the most labored investigation. He therefore concluded that, to agree to the resolution, would be a waste of the short time that yet remained of the session, and an unwise measure. Mr. B. would have contented himself with joining the committee in a silent vote on this subject, but he thought the observations made in support of the measure ought to receive some answer, if not to convince the committee, yet to satisfy their constituents that there could exist no necessity for a present inquiry of this nature.

Mr. W. SMITH said, that the resolution was, in its present shape, so extremely vague, that one did not know how to give it a definition or a vote. Different objects were lumped together. If, by an inquiry, the gentleman meant to examine into the wages of members of this House, it was quite needless to appoint a committee, because every member can at this moment speak for himself. But Mr. S. did not consider the present time as the most proper for beginning to reduce salaries, when, within the last twelve months, there had been three resignations, viz: the Secretary of State, the Secretary of War, and the Secretary of the Treasury, and all chiefly for one reason, the smallness of the salary. I have no doubt (said Mr. S.) of there being complaints, and, if the salary was reduced to three dollars per day, there would be still complaints, as we see is the case with the members of the Legislature of Pennsylvania. He only wished that the committee would rise, and he should then vote in the House that they might not have leave to sit again. The mover of this resolution had mentioned the danger of meeting with reproaches from the people, who thought their salaries too high. Mr. S. saw very little in this matter, because the people who railed at the salary of six dollars per day, were only anxious to get in themselves, and embraced this topic as an expedient of ousting those members whom they wanted to succeed.

Mr. GOODHUE wished to ask Mr. CLAIBORNE one question, "Whether he found himself growing rich?"

Mr. SEDGWICK saw no occasion for rising, because the committee were perfectly competent at this moment to determine the question.

Mr. RUTHERFORD was for reducing the salaries by one dollar per day, and one dollar every twenty-five miles that the members had to travel. This would be a reduction of one hundred dollars per day, which would be much better bestowed upon the innocent widow of the veteran, who had fallen in the service of his country.

Mr. PAGE said, that he did not think the resolution, as it was worded, was a proper subject for discussion in that place; for the House, and not a committee, could properly resolve that committees should be appointed. However, as the resolution had been submitted by the House to the consideration of the Committee of the Whole, it must be examined; but, as to the object of it, that he thought was more properly before the committee, as proposed by the resolution; for, as I have remarked on other occasions, if, instead of discussing a question fully, and collecting the sense of all the members in a Committee of the Whole, it be referred to a committee of one member from each State, that committee might be unanimous in favor of a resolution, against which, eighteen members for Virginia, and a proportionate number from other States, might vote; or, by the weight of that committee, the resolution might be carried, which could not have passed had it been fully and freely discussed in the House. Here, then, my colleague's question should be examined, as I cannot say (as has been said by one of them) that I had no hand in fixing the salaries and pay of the officers of Government and members of Congress, having actually voted at New York for them as they now stand. I think I may, with propriety, give my opinion respecting it. And I am clearly of opinion, sir, that the question arises from a misapprehension of the subject to which it is applied; for there cannot be a greater mistake than to suppose that parsimony in a Republic is necessary to its support. A certain degree of economy is so; but parsimony, applied to the salaries of public officers, and the Representatives in particular, may be ruinous to the interests of a Republic. Should the salaries be so low that men of small fortunes cannot afford to serve their country, it must be deprived of their assistance, and we must accept of the services of the rich, who, to have their wills, though low, will serve even without pay; or, the State will be served by artful demagogues, by ready, designing men, who may, in pursuit of profit as well as popularity, cut out places for themselves and friends, producing at length confusion and anarchy, or, at least, such a bungling system of legislation as will cost more time and money to rectify their blunders than the most extravagant salaries could amount to. What true Republican could wish to exclude from a seat in Congress a physician, lawyer, merchant, farmer, or any other person possessed of such well-known abilities and virtues as to attract the attention and respect of a district which might wish to intrust its interests to him as a Representative? Or, rather, who ought not to desire that, as all offices are open to all, that the son of the poorest citizen might be enabled, if qualified to fill a seat here or elsewhere, to do it without sacrificing his private interest? Is it reasonable to expect that men should sacrifice domestic ease and the interests of their families to serve their country? It is not just to require it. Human nature, except on great and trying occasions, cannot obey such a requisition. My colleague says that he is not a man of fortune; but, has he not a profession by which he can make more than by his attendance on this House? If not, he has not a right to require such a sacrifice of any other person's time and talents. The constitution, far from requiring any thing like it, demands that compensation shall be made for all services; and who will desire less for services than a mere subsistence for a person whilst actually employed in such service? I am sure that less than the present pay of members of Congress would not, in their present situation, be a subsistence. I recollect that, when the House of Representatives were debating, in the first session, at New York, whether their daily pay should be four, five, or six dollars, I affirmed that the expenses of the members where I boarded required that it should be six, that the State of Virginia having once allowed her delegates to Congress eight dollars, and never less than six, when she bore the whole expense, could not object to her Representatives receiving that sum, when divided, as it was, amongst the States, and spread out over the various duties and taxes of the United States. I asked those, as I might ask my colleague now, who of our constituents could calculate what he would save by any proposed reduction of our pay? I have long suspected, sir, that Republics have lost more by parsimony than they were aware of, and that a misapprehension of some practices in ancient Republics has been artfully kept up, so as to favor Aristocracy and Monarchy. The British Parliament has now no pay; but have they been as independent as their countrymen wished them under the British Government?

In reply to the member who had objected to the pay of the SPEAKER, and the difference between the pay of members of the two Houses, Mr. P. said, that whoever would consider the duty of the SPEAKER; his long confinement to the chair; his painful attention to every word spoken in the House, and his responsibility for the correctness of the journals--an examination of which must take up much of his time--would surely not think his pay too great. As to the difference between the pay of a Senator and Representative, he had voted for it, from a belief that a Senator having more services to perform than a Representative, had a right to more pay. The Senate not only have to originate bills as this House has, and to revise and amend bills sent from hence, and often to correct the careless errors they contain, but to make themselves acquainted with the law of nations, and to be prepared to judge of treaties; and also of offences brought before them by impeachments. When the Senators may have gone through the labors of a long session, and the Representatives are returning home, they may be called upon to consider certain nominations to offices, or certain treaties; and at another time to try certain impeachments. Besides all this, the age of a Senator must be such, by the constitution, that it is probable that his family is larger, and his pursuits in life more fixed and profitable than those of a Representative, who may be elected when only twenty-five, and therefore his services must require higher compensation. As to the PRESIDENT and VICE-PRESIDENT's salaries, I voted for a larger sum than was allowed to either, and thought that the disproportion between them was too great. With respect to the judges, I still think their salaries too small, and so should every one think who will consider the vast importance of their office; the labor of both mind and body which it requires; the laborious course of study through which a man must have gone to be qualified for it, and the lucrative employment such a one must have given up to undertake it. In short, I do not recollect a salary which I think too high. And I must repeat it, that I do not think that large salaries in a Republic can injure it; but that small, inadequate salaries may overturn a Republic.

I am sorry that the question has been brought before us respecting our own pay this session, because the elections in Virginia are not over; it would become us much better another session, if re-elected, to reduce it, than to do so when we may be left out. Besides, if I vote for a reduction, I may be suspected of courting popularity; and, if against it, of despising the opinions of my constituents, if they have adopted those which some members tell us prevail amongst their constituents. I do not like to be in such a dilemma, nor to have my independence unnecessarily tried. I wish, as the question is before us, that it may be fully debated here, and even referred to the further consideration of a select committee; because I think the opinions even of a single member and his district should be treated with respect; and that when they have been fairly proved to be founded in error, there will be an end of complaints, and an acquiescence in the decision of this House.

Mr. GILLESPIE proposed an amendment, the scope of which was, that a committee should be appointed to examine and report whether any and what alterations were necessary in the act fixing salaries to the officers under Government. He suggested this amendment from no motive whatever but what was fair. There had been, and there still was, a degree of clamor upon the subject, and it was the duty of the House to pay attention to the voice of the public, whether right or wrong. If, upon investigation, it should appear that the salaries were not higher than they ought to be, then the report of the committee would be the best method for stopping the public clamor.

Mr. CLAIBORNE hoped that the committee would not rise, but decide the point. He trusted that no gentleman would again point at him, and say that the motion came out of his brain. There was not one officer under Government whom he would point out and say, that such an officer had too high a salary. He had expectations that this discussion, by bringing forward the observations of several gentlemen, would in some degree satisfy the people, and that there would be no more pointing out with a finger and saying, "_There goes a six-dollars-a-day man_."

Another member observed, that it was the duty of the House to attend to the voice of their constituents, and for this reason, he should vote for a committee. He would mention what he had always considered as a most odious distinction, the additional dollar per day, which is to be paid to the Senate from and after the 4th of March next. [The reader will observe, that by the act, members of the Senate were to have seven dollars per day, but the additional dollar was not to commence till the lapse of six years,[58] when all the Senators of the first Congress had gone out.] There was another thing for which he never could see any reason, and that was the giving of the twelve dollars per day to the SPEAKER.

Mr. GILES was perfectly convinced that the allowance to the members is small enough already. The saving of a dollar per day suggested by Mr. RUTHERFORD, would be but little, and it was beginning at the worst of resources. The pay ought to be such as would bring persons of middling circumstances into the House; persons neither too high in life nor too low. If the pay was greatly reduced, none but very rich people could afford to give their attendance, and if too high, a seat in the House might be an object to persons of an opposite description. Formerly the State of Virginia allowed eight dollars per day to the members of its Legislature. This sum had since been reduced to six dollars. Mr. G. mentioned this to show that in the practice of individual States, there might be found a precedent for the allowance to members of Congress. He was for voting directly. Mr. G. said, that there was a country from which America had copied a great deal, and very often too much; a country which still had a very pernicious influence in the United States. The members of the British House of Commons received no wages, while the officers of State had immense salaries. It was however understood, that the British House of Commons were very well paid for the trouble of their attendance. Mr. G. did not wish to see scenes of that kind in this country.

Mr. HILLHOUSE hoped that the House would have done with this thing immediately, as it had now answered all the purposes expected from it, and he trusted that all motions of that sort which had an eye to certain operations out of the House, would meet with the same fate.

The motion was negatived by a very great majority.

[Before the adjournment, the SPEAKER suggested to the House a considerable inconvenience, occasioned by gentlemen being introduced, and occupying such parts of the House without the bar as were particularly allotted for the use of the House, and of which several members complained. There was often so great a crowd that members could scarce walk round when they had papers to present to the Chair. The passage was often obstructed when messages were to be delivered, and frequently there was no room left for the members when they wished to confer privately with each other. As he did not conceive himself authorized to give special directions without orders from the House, he would take the liberty to suggest to the members of the House, when introducing their friends, the propriety of placing them under the galleries to the left of the Chair, and reserving the space to the right of the Chair for the members of both branches of the Legislature, the diplomatic gentlemen, judges, and other officers of Government; which was generally acquiesced in.]

THURSDAY, January 29.

AARON KITCHELL, returned to serve in this House, as a member for the State of New Jersey, in the room of Abraham Clark, deceased, appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat in the House; the oath to support the Constitution of the United States being first administered to him by Mr. SPEAKER, according to law.

_Thomas Person and others._[59]

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. COBB in the chair, to resume the consideration of the claims of Thomas Person and others, to certain lands lying on the frontier of the State of North Carolina, and ceded by the Commissioners of the United States to the Indians.

Mr. GILLESPIE took up the subject in the same stage in which it stood before he spoke the preceding day. He said, let us examine the conduct of other States. Did not New York dispose of lands within her chartered limits, and from the sales become wealthy, as she has large sums in the funds? The State of Virginia took advantage of the purchase of Henderson and Company, for that part now called Kentucky, although they now exclaim that the purchase was unlawful; yet, unlawful as it was, it has extinguished the Indian title to those lands. Now, if the purchase of Henderson and Company had this effect on the north-east side of Walker's line, which divides Kentucky from the South-west Territory, is it not just that it should have the same effect on the south-west side, when made by the same persons, on the self-same day? And surely the rights of North Carolina must be at least equal to those of Kentucky, in every thing except that of power. But is Congress going to legislate by strength of arm? I hope not. It has been admitted, by some who have spoken on the subject, that the citizens of North Carolina have a right of redress by law, and by others, against her own Legislature. To the first of these I ask, against whom is the suit to commence? Are our citizens, thus bereft of their property, to be compelled to litigate suits at law for property taken for public use, and for which they have a just claim against the United States; or have they not an equal right to compensation for that which the United States, by their agent, took from them, as other citizens are entitled to, for property piratically taken on the high seas, by the robbers of Britain? And do we, in the last case, say to these unfortunate sufferers, commence suits against those who have injured you? No. Government has taken the litigation in hand, at her own cost. Let her do so with the citizens of North Carolina. Or, will the Government of the United States support the claim of the injured against her own Executive? Will they do it against the State of North Carolina? They cannot; and from what has been said in this matter, it is plain that, as the Government of the United States has converted the property of the citizens of North Carolina to the uses of her Government, compensation ought to be made out of the public purse, as the contrary would, on her part, destroy that bond of union between her, as the sovereign power of the United States, and her citizens, and as not only bound to govern with justice, but also to protect them from all manner of injury, as well domestic as foreign. Mr. G. apologized, that he was without authority in the House, but would pledge his reputation that what he should advance, if not verbatim, should be in substance with the author quoted:

"It is admitted by many, that the sovereign authority
possesses a power, under the laws of eminent domain, to
alienate the property of the subject, for the benefit of
the Commonwealth, by impending public necessity against
private injury." But, without doubt, they "that have lost
or sacrificed their property to the public safety in such
extremity, ought to have satisfaction made, as far as
possible, by the Commonwealth. Any thing short of this
would destroy the reciprocity between the sovereign and
subject."--_Puffendorf_, _b._ 8, _c._ 5, § 7.

But can public necessity be urged in the present case to justify this kind of political robbery? I answer, no. If the Indians are to be kept in peace by bribes, why not, in this, as in other similar cases, by presents and pecuniary rewards? Is it not an indignity to the United States to purchase peace from an Indian nation, at the expense of a part of her citizens, whose resources at best were scanty, and are, by this and other speculations, almost annihilated? Surely it is. And, let me add, is it not an invariable axiom with all authors on Government,

"That all sacrifices of property made by individuals for
the public benefit or accommodation, should or ought to be
paid out of the public revenue, and that one should not
bear more of the burden than another."--_Burlamaqui_, _b._
8, _c._ 5, § 27, 28.

Is it not, then, obvious to all, who will reflect on this subject, that compensation is due to these individuals, whose property has been wrested from them for Government purposes? The same author observes, in the 38th section of the same chapter:

"That as no subject can assume any part of the sovereign
power without the consent of the whole, neither can any
sovereign authority deprive the subject of his right and
property, nor substitute another sovereign over him without
his consent."

The public is in nothing more essentially interested than in the protection of every individual's private rights, as modelled by the municipal law in this and similar cases. The Legislature can, and frequently does interpose, and compel the individual to acquiesce. But how does it interpose and compel? Not by stripping the individual of his property in an arbitrary manner. No. But by giving him full and ample indemnification for the injury sustained; for there must be an end of all social commerce between man and man, unless private possessions be secured from unjust invasions. Thus, the protection of a State, in every precedent to be found in books that treat of the fundamental laws of civil society, or in the resolutions and acts of the British Parliament, means restitution, indemnity, or compensation. _Grotius_, when treating of the right of the sovereign authority to give up or take the property of the subject, calls it "restitution, satisfaction;" _Burlamaqui_, "indemnity, and indemnifying the subject for the injury sustained;" and _Vattel_, "recompense out of the public money." It is farther observed, that cases of this kind operate, like property thrown into the sea to save the ship, by making an estimate of the loss, and causing an equal average on the property saved, which each owner is bound to pay. So that, from the fullest conviction, I am of opinion the citizens of North Carolina are entitled to the relief reported by the select committee, and that strict justice requires we should comply with it; for, as I have said, in nothing is the Government of the United States more concerned, in a superlative degree, than in doing strict justice to her citizens, as of the last importance in preserving the affections of the people to the Government. Vacancies in our departments, civil, judicial, or military, may be supplied as well, but to restore the confidence of a people borne down with oppression, exceeds comprehension. It is like attempting to return from the grave--is without precedent, and is vain labor indeed. At different epochs it has shook the foundations of monarchies, and caused tyrants to tremble and atone for their crimes with their lives; and, as I said at an early stage of the debate, if usurpers, tyrants, and despots have been compelled to do justice by this undeniable law of nature, shall the Government of the United States, founded on the pure principles of Democracy, be less just? Surely not. Have we received a power to exercise in wantonly oppressing those who gave it? God forbid! Therefore, let it ever be impressed on our minds, that justice exalteth a nation. The House, I hope, will pardon my detaining them, at a time when every moment is precious. But the duty I owe to my injured constituents forbids silence, and will, I hope, be a sufficient apology. I shall, therefore, submit to the judgment of the House, not doubting but justice will be done.

Mr. NICHOLAS was satisfied that the purchasers of the lands had a claim either against the United States or the State of North Carolina. Much had been said about the Indian right; but the Indians never had been fit to occupy these lands. It could never have been the design of nature that these people should be termed the possessors of land which they were incapable to enjoy. He was, upon the whole, on the side of the claimants, though he enumerated some of the difficulties that would attend an attempt to please all parties.

Mr. W. SMITH had found much difficulty in forming his opinion upon this question. He had at first been somewhat disposed against the claimants, but at last, after full deliberation, he was convinced of the justice of giving them redress. He requested the particular attention and candor of the House. The United States were, in this case, made a judge in their own cause, and therefore it became more their duty to examine every part of the subject with the more accuracy. Mr. S. then began a distinct detail of the circumstances in the present dispute. Previous to the year 1776, North Carolina was a British Colony, and the British Crown considered itself as entitled to bestow grants of territory. In that year, North Carolina became a sovereign State, and consequently she conceived herself as succeeding to the right of the British Crown, and as having a right to bestow grants in the same way as the Kings of Great Britain had done. This claim was asserted in her general Declaration of Rights, and it was incorporated into her constitution. When North Carolina entered into the Union, all the Legislative rights of the State were preserved, and, by a necessary inference, her title to the lands comprehended in her original charter. In 1783, the State opened an office to sell the absolute right of such lands as had not been disposed of. In 1789, North Carolina ceded the right of jurisdiction to the United States, but she reserved her own Legislative rights, and consequently her right to sell the lands within her own territory; and in disposing of the lands in question, the State did not intend merely to sell the right of pre-emption from the Indians, but the absolute title to the lands. Mr. S. read a part of the constitution of North Carolina, in order to explain what degree of legislation the State had conceded to the Federal Government, and what part she reserved to herself; and he was clearly of opinion, that the disposal of the lands had been reserved. In 1783 the State offered these lands for sale. In 1786, the Commissioners of the United States assigned a great part of them to the Indians. In 1788, the Legislature of North Carolina declared that they would support the purchasers. The grand question now is, did the State, by acceding to the confederation, give up her right of legislation? She gave up her right to make Indian treaties, but reserved that of legislation, because, as above observed, it formed a part of her constitution, which was understood to continue unviolated. These lands were bought with certificates, which it was alleged, on the other side, would purchase nothing else. If the certificates would purchase nothing else, it was proper at least that they should have been restored to their first owners, who might have subscribed them to a part of the public debt of the United States. They were certainly entitled either to their land or their certificates. These certificates, which were paid into the Treasury of North Carolina, were those of the United States. If the owners had only a pre-emption right, Mr. S. insisted that the certificates should be returned.

Mr. SEDGWICK said, that this was quite a new fact to him, and if it was as stated, there was no necessity for Legislative interference at all. The State of North Carolina had only to come forward and subscribe them to the Treasury.

Mr. W. SMITH explained, that when delivered into the Treasury of North Carolina, they had been cancelled. After this they were again ordered to be made current by the subscriptions of the officers of the State, and in that shape they were offered to the Commissioners of Loans, who refused to accept them. The exact amount of the certificates could still be ascertained, as well as the names of the persons to whom they belonged. They had been cancelled, but not destroyed.