Chapter XVII: Introduction (16)

Mr. WADSWORTH.--Instructions have frequently been given to the representatives of the United States; but the people did not claim as a right that they should have any obligation upon the representatives; it is not right that they should. In troublous times, designing men have drawn the people to instruct the representatives to their harm; the representatives have, on such occasions, refused to comply with their instructions. I have known, myself, that they have been disobeyed, and yet the representative was not brought to account for it; on the contrary he was caressed and re-elected, while those who have obeyed them, contrary to their private sentiments, have ever after been despised for it. Now, if people considered it an inherent right in them to instruct their representatives, they would have undoubtedly punished the violation of them. I have no idea of instructions, unless they are obeyed; a discretional power is incompatible with them.

Mr. BURKE.--I am not positive with respect to the particular expression in the declaration of rights of the people of Maryland, but the constitutions of Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina, all of them recognize, in express terms, the right of the people to give instruction to their representatives. I do not mean to insist particularly upon this amendment; but I am very well satisfied that those that are reported and likely to be adopted by this House are very far from giving satisfaction to our constituents; they are not those solid and substantial amendments which the people expect; they are little better than whip-syllabub, frothy and full of wind, formed only to please the palate; or they are like a tub thrown out to a whale, to secure the freight of the ship and its peaceable voyage. In my judgment, the people will not be gratified by the mode we have pursued in bringing them forward. There was a committee of eleven appointed; and out of the number I think there were five who were members of the convention that formed the constitution. Such gentlemen, having already given their opinion with respect to the perfection of the work, may be thought improper agents to bring forward amendments. Upon the whole, I think it will be found that we have done nothing but lose our time, and that it will be better to drop the subject now, and proceed to the organization of the Government.

The question was now called for from several parts of the House; but a desultory conversation took place before the question was put. At length the call becoming general, it was stated from the Chair, and determined in the negative, 10 rising in favor of it, and 41 against it.

TUESDAY, August 18.

_Amendments to the Constitution._

Mr. GERRY moved, "That such of the amendments to the constitution proposed by the several States, as are not in substance comprised in the report of the select committee appointed to consider amendments, be referred to a Committee of the whole House; and that all amendments which shall be agreed to by the committee last mentioned be included in one report."

Mr. TUCKER remarked, that many citizens expected that the amendments proposed by the conventions would be attended to by the House, and that several members conceived it to be their duty to bring them forward. If the House should decline taking them into consideration, it might tend to destroy that harmony which had hitherto existed, and which did great honor to their proceedings; it might affect all their future measures, and promote such feuds as might embarrass the Government exceedingly. The States who had proposed these amendments would feel some degree of chagrin at having misplaced their confidence in the General Government. Five important States have pretty plainly expressed their apprehensions of the danger to which the rights of their citizens are exposed. Finding these cannot be secured in the mode they had wished, they will naturally recur to the alternative, and endeavor to obtain a federal convention; the consequence of this may be disagreeable to the Union; party spirit may be revived, and animosities rekindled destructive of tranquillity. States that exert themselves to obtain a federal convention, and those that oppose the measure, may feel so strongly the spirit of discord, as to sever the Union asunder.

If in this conflict the advocates for a federal convention should prove successful, the consequences may be alarming; we may lose many of the valuable principles now established in the present constitution. If, on the other hand, a convention should not be obtained, the consequences resulting are equally to be dreaded; it would render the administration of this system of government weak, if not impracticable; for no government can be administered with energy, however energetic its system, unless it obtains the confidence and support of the people. Which of the two evils is the greatest would be difficult to ascertain.

It is essential to our deliberations that the harmony of the House be preserved; by it alone we shall be enabled to perfect the organization of the Government--a Government but in embryo, or at best but in its infancy.

My idea relative to this constitution, whilst it was dependent upon the assent of the several States, was, that it required amendment, and that the proper time for amendment was previous to the ratification. My reasons were, that I conceived it difficult, if not impossible, to obtain essential amendments by the way pointed out in the constitution; nor have I been mistaken in this suspicion. It will be found, I fear, still more difficult than I apprehended; for perhaps these amendments, should they be agreed to by two-thirds of both Houses of Congress, will be submitted for ratification to the Legislatures of the several States, instead of State conventions, in which case the chance is still worse. The Legislatures of almost all the States consist of two independent, distinct bodies; the amendments must be adopted by three-fourths of such Legislatures; that is to say, they must meet the approbation of the majority of each of eighteen deliberative assemblies. But, notwithstanding all these objections to obtaining amendments after the ratification of the constitution, it will tend to give a great degree of satisfaction to those who are desirous of them, if this House shall take them up, and consider them with that degree of candor and attention they have hitherto displayed on the subjects that have come before them; consider the amendments separately, and, after fair deliberation, either approve or disapprove of them. By such conduct, we answer in some degree the expectations of those citizens in the several States who have shown so great a tenacity to the preservation of those rights and liberties they secured to themselves by an arduous, persevering, and successful conflict.

I have hopes that the States will be reconciled to this disappointment, in consequence of such procedure.

A great variety of arguments might be urged in favor of the motion; but I shall rest it here, and not trespass any further upon the patience of the House.

Mr. _Madison_ was just going to move to refer these amendments, in order that they might be considered in the fullest manner; but it would be very inconvenient to have them made up into one report, or all of them discussed at the present time.

Mr. _Vining_ had no objection to the bringing them forward in the fullest point of view; but his objection arose from the informality attending the introduction of the business.

The order of the House was to refer the report of the committee of eleven to a Committee of the Whole, and therefore it was improper to propose any thing additional.

A desultory conversation arose on this motion, when Mr. _Vining_ moved the previous question, in which, being supported by five members, it was put, and the question was,--Shall the main question, to agree to the motion, be now put? The yeas and nays being demanded by one-fifth of the members present, on this last motion, they were taken as follows:

YEAS.--Messrs. Burke, Coles, Floyd, Gerry, Griffin, Grout,
Hathorn, Livermore, Page, Parker, Van Renssellaer, Sherman,
Stone, Sturgis, Sumter, and Tucker.--16.

NAYS.--Messrs. Ames, Baldwin, Benson, Boudinot, Brown,
Cadwalader, Carroll, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Foster, Gilman,
Goodhue, Hartley, Heister, Huntington, Lawrence, Lee,
Madison, Moore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Schureman, Scott,
Sedgwick, Seney, Sylvester, Sinnickson, Smith, (of
Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Thatcher, Trumbull,
Vining, Wadsworth, and Wynkoop.--34.

So the motion was lost.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate had passed the bill providing for expenses which may attend negotiations or treaties with the Indian tribes, and the appointment of commissioners for managing the same, with an amendment, to which they desire the concurrence of the House.

THURSDAY, September 3.

_Permanent Seat of Government._

Mr. _Scott_, agreeably to notice given, moved the following: "That a permanent residence ought to be fixed for the General Government of the United States at some convenient place, as near the centre of wealth, population, and extent of territory, as may be consistent with convenience to the navigation of the Atlantic Ocean, and having due regard to the particular situation of the Western country."

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, to take into consideration the motion presented by Mr. _Scott_, on Thursday last, for establishing the permanent residence of Congress, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair.

Mr. _Goodhue_.--The motion before the committee I consider too indefinite for the House to decide upon satisfactorily; I wish, therefore, to add something which may bring the question to a point. It is well known that the gentlemen from the Eastward are averse to taking up this business at this time. Not that the subject was improper for our discussion, but that the present session is drawing to a period, and there remains yet much important business to be transacted before the adjournment; but their opinion being overruled by a late vote of the House, they have since taken it into consideration, and are now ready and willing to come to a decision. The Eastern members, with the members from New York, have agreed to fix a place upon national principles, without a regard to their own convenience, and have turned their minds to the banks of the Susquehanna. This is a situation as nearly central as could be devised, upon some of the principles contained in the resolution. It is, however, supposed to be considerably to the southward of the centre of the population. Motives of convenience would have led us to fix upon the banks of the Delaware, but it was supposed it would give more lasting content to go further south. They were, therefore, unitedly of opinion, that the banks of the river Susquehanna should be the place of the permanent residence of the General Government; and that until suitable buildings could be there erected for accommodation, they should remain in the city of New York. Agreeably to these ideas, I move the following resolution:

_Resolved_, That the permanent seat of the General
Government ought to be in some convenient place on the east
bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of
Pennsylvania; and that until the necessary buildings be
erected for the purpose, the seat of Government ought to
continue at the city of New York.

Mr. STONE said, it ought to be "Government of the United States," instead of General Government.

Mr. LEE.--The House are now called upon to deliberate on a great national question; and I hope they will discuss and decide it with that dispassionate deliberation which the magnitude of the subject requires. I hope they will be guided in this discussion and decision, by the great principles on which the Government is founded. I have, with a view, therefore, of bringing them before a committee, drawn up a preamble, which recognizes them, in the words following:

Whereas the people of the United States have assented to
and ratified a constitution for their Government, to
provide for their defence against foreign danger, to secure
their perpetual union and domestic tranquillity, and to
promote their common interests; and all these great objects
will be the best effected by establishing the seat of
Government in a station as nearly central as a convenient
water communication with the Atlantic Ocean, and an easy
access to the Western Territory will permit; and as it will
be satisfactory to the people of the United States, and
give them a firm confidence in the justice and wisdom of
their Government, to be assured that such a station is
already in the contemplation of Congress; and that proper
measures will be taken to ascertain it, and to provide the
necessary accommodations, as soon as the indispensable
arrangements for carrying into effect the constitution can
be made, and the circumstances of the United States will
permit;

_Resolved_, That a place, as nearly central as a convenient
communication with the Atlantic Ocean, and an easy access
to the Western Territory, will permit, ought to be selected
and established as the permanent seat of the Government of
the United States.

I wish the principles to be recognized, that the people of the United States may be able to judge whether, in the measures about to be adopted, they are carried into execution by this House. If these great principles are not observed, it will be an unhappy fulfilment of those predictions which have been made by the opponents of the constitution; that the general interest of America would not be consulted; that partial measures would be pursued; and that, instead of being influenced by a general policy, directed to the good of the whole, one part of the Union would be depressed and trampled on, to benefit and exalt the other. Instead of accomplishing and realizing those bright prospects which shone upon us in the dawn of our Government, and for which our patriots fought and bled, we shall find the whole to be a visionary fancy. I flatter myself, that before the House decides on the question before them, those principles will be recognized, if it is meant they shall be regarded.

Mr. CARROL seconded Mr. LEE'S motion.

Mr. SHERMAN said, if they were both adopted, or blended together, they would only amount to a preamble, and determine nothing. He thought the first preamble the best, inasmuch as it stated the principles simply and concisely.

Mr. HARTLEY.--Several places have been mentioned, and some have been offered to Congress as proper situations for the Federal Government. Many persons wish it seated on the banks of the Delaware, many on the banks of the Potomac. I consider this as the middle ground between the two extremes. It will suit the inhabitants to the north better than the Potomac could, and the inhabitants to the south better than the Delaware would. From this consideration, I am induced to believe, it will be a situation more accommodating and agreeable than any other. Respecting its communication with the Western Territory, no doubt but the Susquehanna will facilitate that object with considerable ease and great advantage; and as to its convenience to the navigation of the Atlantic Ocean, the distance is nothing more than to afford safety from any hostile attempt, while it affords a short and easy communication with navigable rivers and large commercial towns. Nay, its intercourse may be without land carriage, if proper measures are pursued to open the navigation to the Delaware and Chesapeake. Perhaps, as the present question is only intended to be on general principles, it may be improper to be more minute than the honorable mover has been; but I think it would be better to come to the point at once, and fix the precise spot, if we could. With this view, I mention Wright's Ferry, on the Susquehanna. Not, however, that the House should decide upon it, until they have ascertained its advantages, which will, perhaps, come more properly forward when the question on the preamble is determined.

Mr. THATCHER was against a preamble being prefixed to the resolution of the committee, because the House had, on every occasion when preambles were brought forward, rejected them. He thought this a prudent conduct, because it avoided embarrassments. He observed, that it was not unfrequently the case that the preambles occasioned more difficulty in understanding the laws than the most intricate part of the laws themselves; and, therefore, the committee would act wisely to reject such trammels. He conceived, moreover, that the motion was out of order, as it was a substitute for one before the committee.

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) looked upon the motion as a preamble to a preamble, both of which he conceived unnecessary; nay, he doubted the truth of some of the assertions. So far from cementing the Union, by a measure of the kind in contemplation, he rather feared it would have a tendency to rend the Union in two; for which reason he was against adopting it.

Mr. TUCKER wished the proposition might lie on the table, to give gentlemen time to consider it.

Mr. LEE conceived it proper to adopt the preamble as a guide to their decision. No gentlemen pretended to say it contained improper principles. As to the whole being a preamble to a preamble, he did not conceive that to be the case, because the resolution, subsequent to the preamble, decided, that Congress should select a place for their permanent residence. He did not conceive how gentlemen could refuse their assent to a self-evident proposition. He thought such conduct would give an alarm to the inhabitants of the United States; it amounted to a declaration, that, on this important question, they would not be governed by principles founded on rectitude and good policy.

Mr. MADISON.--I cannot, Mr. Chairman, discover why the opposition to my colleague's preamble is so strenuous. Is it contended to be out of order? I submit that to the decision of the Chair. Does it contain any thing which is not true? I appeal, on that point, to the candid judgment of the committee. Are the truths in it applicable to the great object we are about to decide? I appeal to the justice and policy of the people of the United States.

I flatter myself the Chair will decide with me, that the proposition is strictly in order; that the committee will agree, that its contents are substantial truths; and the whole world, that they are applicable to the important point now under consideration.

It declares the principles which ought to govern our decision on this question, and will, therefore, stand properly prefixed to the motion offered by the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. GOODHUE.) By it we declare our sentiments, and engage to conform to them, in fixing upon a seat for the residence of Congress. Is there any thing improper or unwise in this determination? An honorable gentleman near me (Mr. TUCKER) says, that he feels himself embarrassed on this occasion; that the propositions are a bandage over his eyes, to lead him blindfolded to an object he cannot tell what. I must beg leave to differ from him. They appear to me to contain those luminous truths which ought to guide him through his embarrassment to the object which I am sure his justice and patriotism are in pursuit of. I hope, therefore, he will agree with us in adopting the motion, unless something more essential is offered against it.

Mr. SHERMAN.--The resolution connected with the preamble contains a proposition which, I think, ought not to be adopted. It selects a place, having a convenient water-communication with the Atlantic. Now, it may be just and expedient to fix upon a place at some distance from a navigable river, therefore it may not agree with the intention of the committee. As to the principles which are to guide our decisions, they are as well expressed in the propositions of the gentleman from Pennsylvania as in the substitute, and as free from ambiguity.

The question on Mr. LEE'S motion was taken, and determined in the negative; yeas 17, nays 34.

Mr. TUCKER declared, that the majority for fixing upon any set of principles whatever, could not govern his mind with regard to the fact. If, on the whole, he did not think that place best, which the principles adopted seemed to lead to, he certainly could not vote for it. Of what use, then, was it to establish principles which could not govern the conduct of the House? But the principles offered are vague, and lead to no certain conclusion. What is the centre of wealth, population, and territory? Is there a common centre? Territory has one centre, population another, and wealth a third. Now, is it intended to determine a centre from these three centres? This was not a practicable mode of settling the place; and it was to be doubted whether the centre of wealth ought at all to be considered. The centre of population is variable, and a decision on that principle now, might establish the seat of Government at a very inconvenient place to the next generation. The centre of territory may be ascertained, but that will lead to a situation entirely ineligible; consequently, whether these centres were considered separately or together, they furnish no satisfactory direction, no possible guide to the committee. The only way, then, to come at a result yielding satisfaction, would be to consider the several places to be proposed, according to their merits; and this would be done by gentlemen in the course of the business. He was, therefore, against settling any principles by vote.

Mr. MADISON.--I move to strike out the word wealth, because I do not conceive this to be a consideration that ought to have much weight in determining the place where the seat of Government ought to be. The two other principles, I admit, are such as ought to have their influence; but why wealth should is not so clear. Government is intended for the accommodation of the citizens at large; an equal facility to communicate with Government is due to all ranks; whether to transmit their grievances or requests, or to receive those blessings which the Government is intended to dispense. The rich are certainly not less able than those who are indigent to resort to the seat of Government, or to establish the means necessary for receiving those advantages to which, as citizens, they are entitled.

I should rather suppose, if any distinctions are to be made, or superior advantages to be enjoyed from the presence of the Government, that the Government ought rather to move toward those who are the least able to move toward it, and who stand most in need of its protection.

The question on this motion was taken, and passed in the negative; yeas 22, nays 28.

The question on Mr. SCOTT'S motion was then taken, and adopted; yeas 32, nays 18.

Mr. GOODHUE'S motion was now taken into consideration.

Mr. LEE hoped that gentlemen would show how the banks of the Susquehanna conformed with the principles laid down in the resolution adopted by the House; how it communicated with the navigation of the Atlantic, and how it was connected with the Western Territory. He hoped they would also point out its other advantages, respecting salubrity of air and fertility of soil. He expected all these advantages ought to be combined in the place of the residence of the Federal Government, and every other requisite to cement the common interest of America.

Mr. Hartley wished some gentleman had risen to satisfy the inquiries of the honorable member, who could have given a description of the advantages of that situation in better language than himself. But as no gentleman had offered to undertake the subject, he thought himself bound to make him an answer; and he trusted, in doing this, he should clearly show that all the advantages contemplated would result from adopting the motion. But he wished it had extended further, and selected the place most convenient on the banks of the Susquehanna, as then the answer would be more pointed and decisive. He had already mentioned Wright's Ferry, and would consider that as the proper spot. Now, Wright's Ferry lies on the east bank of the Susquehanna, about thirty-five miles from navigable water; and, from a few miles above, is navigable to the source of the river, at Lake Otsego, in the upper part of the State of New York. The Tioga branch is navigable a very considerable distance up, and is but a few miles from the Genesee, which empties into Lake Ontario. The Juniata is navigable, and nearly connects with the Kisskemanetas, and that with the Ohio; besides the West Branch connects with the Alleghany River; forming a communication with the distant parts even of Kentucky, with very little land carriage. The great body of water in that river renders it navigable at all seasons of the year. With respect to the settlements in the neighborhood of Wright's Ferry, he would venture to assert it was as thickly inhabited as any part of the country in North America. As to the quality of the soil, it was inferior to none in the world, and though that was saying a good deal, it was not more than he believed a fact. In short, from all the information he had acquired, and that was not inconsiderable, he ventured to pronounce, that in point of soil, water, and the advantages of nature, there was no part of the country superior. And if honorable gentlemen were disposed to pay much attention to a dish of fish, he could assure them their table might be furnished with fine and good from the waters of the Susquehanna; perhaps not in such variety as in this city, but the deficiency was well made up in the abundance which liberal nature presented them of her various products. It was in the neighborhood of two large and populous towns, one of them the largest inland town in America. Added to all these advantages, it possessed that of centrality, perhaps, in a superior degree to any which could be proposed.

Mr. LEE asked the gentleman what was the distance of Wright's Ferry from Yorktown, and whether that town, as it had once accommodated Congress, could do it again? If a permanent seat is established, why not go to it immediately? And why, let me ask, shall we go and fix upon the banks of a rapid river, when we can have a more healthful situation? And here he would inquire if the Codorus Creek, which runs through Yorktown into the Susquehanna, was, or could be made navigable?

Mr. HARTLEY answered, that Yorktown was ten miles from the Ferry, that it contained about five hundred houses, besides a number of large and ornamental public buildings; that there was no doubt, but if Congress deemed it expedient to remove immediately there, they could be conveniently accommodated; but as gentlemen appeared to be inclined to fix the permanent residence on the east banks of the Susquehanna, he was very well satisfied it should be there.

Mr. MADISON.--The gentleman who brought forward this motion was candid enough to tell us, that measures have been preconcerted out of doors, and that the point was determined; that more than half the territory of the United States, and nearly half its inhabitants have been disposed of, not only without their consent, but without their knowledge. After this, I hope the gentleman will extend his candor so much further, as to show that the general principles now to be established are applicable to their determination, in order that we may reconcile this fate to our own minds, and submit to it with some degree of complacency.

I hope, if the seat of Government is to be at or near the centre of wealth, population, and extent of territory, that gentlemen will show that the permanent seat there proposed is near the permanent centre of wealth, population and extent of territory, and the temporary seat, near the temporary centre. I think we may, with good reason, call upon gentlemen for an explanation on these points, in order that we may know the ground on which the great question is decided, and be able to assign to our constituents satisfactory reasons for what some of them may consider a sacrifice of their interest, and be instrumental in reconciling them, as far as possible, to their destiny.

Mr. GOODHUE thought the question, stated by the gentleman from Virginia, was proper to be asked, and proper to be answered. The gentlemen from the eastward, as he said before, were in favor of the Susquehanna; that in contemplating the geographical centre of territory, they found the banks of that river to be near the place. In point of population, they considered the Susquehanna was south of that centre; but, from a spirit of conciliation, they were inclined to go there, although the principle and their own convenience would not lead them beyond the banks of the Delaware. He believed the centre of population would not vary considerably for ages yet to come, because he supposed it would constantly incline more toward the Eastern, and manufacturing States, than toward the Southern, and agricultural ones.

Mr. JACKSON.--I was originally opposed to the question coming forward, and am so still. I thought the subject ought not to be touched till the States, who have not yet acceded to the Union, might have an opportunity of giving their voice. I agree with the gentleman from Virginia. I am sorry that the people should learn that this matter has been precipitated; that they should learn, that the members from New England and New York had fixed on a seat of Government for the United States. This is not proper language to go out to freemen. Jealousies have already gone abroad. This language will blow the coals of sedition, and endanger the Union. I would ask, if the other members of the Union are not also to be consulted? Are the eastern members to dictate in this business, and fix the seat of Government of the United States? Why not also fix the principles of Government? Why not come forward, and demand of us the power of Legislation, and say, give us up your privileges, and we will govern you? If one part has the power to fix the seat of Government, they may as well take the Government from the other. This looks like aristocracy: not the united, but the partial voice of America is to decide. How can gentlemen answer for this, who call themselves representatives, on the broad basis of national interest?

I deny the fact of the territorial centrality of the place proposed. From New York, to the nearest part of the province of Maine, it is two hundred and fifty miles; and from New York, to the nearest part of the upper district of Georgia, from which my colleague, General Matthews, comes, is eleven hundred miles; and from the proposed place on the Susquehanna, it is four hundred miles to the nearest part of Maine, and nine hundred to the nearest part of that district; the proportion is more than two to one. But the gentlemen should have an eye to the population of Georgia; one of the finest countries in the world cannot but rapidly extend her population; nothing but her being harassed by the inroads of savages has checked her amazing increase, which must, under the auspices of peace and safety, people her western regions. Georgia will soon be as populous as any State in the Union. Calculations ought not to be made on its present situation.

North Carolina is not yet in the Union, and perhaps the place may give umbrage to her, which ought, at this moment, to be cautiously avoided. I should, therefore, think it most advisable to postpone the decision for this session at least. But, if we are to decide, I own, I think the Potomac a better situation than the Susquehanna, and I hope it will be selected for that purpose.

Mr. GOODHUE.--If gentlemen examine this subject with candor, they will find that the banks of the Susquehanna are as near the geographical centre as can be fixed upon. It is from the extreme of the Province of Maine about seven hundred and sixty miles; to Savannah, in Georgia, about seven hundred and sixty; and about seven hundred and thirty, or seven hundred and forty, from Kentucky; so that it is rather south of the centre of territory.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--When this subject was under discussion some time since, it appeared to be the wish of gentlemen from the eastward, and of the members from this State, that the question should not now be decided. They urged several reasons why it would be improper. I thought those reasons weighty, and was for postponing the consideration till our next meeting. But it was answered, that the business was important; that the citizens of the United States were uneasy and anxious; that as factions did not now exist, it was the proper time to decide the question. What was the representation to do? Was it not necessary for them to consult, and fix upon a proper place?

They are, in a degree, disinterested, because they have no expectation that the seat of Government will be fixed in any of the Eastern States. On the other hand, there is a well-grounded expectation, that it will be fixed either in Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, or Jersey. We are called on to determine a question in which we conceive ourselves unbiased, and shall decide it on those principles that will reflect honor on the House. I trust it will be found that we have fixed on those principles, and that this resolution will be confirmed by Congress. We do not decide for the Union, nor for the Southern States, we decide for ourselves; and if our reasons are substantial, I trust that gentlemen will meet us in the determination.

There are several principles which have been agreed to in the general resolution; and I believe it will be shown, with exactness, that the place proposed will come within these principles. The first respects population. Is the House to consider the present, or the expected population? The resolution has a determinate meaning; it speaks of the population at the present period; and to calculate on this principle no gentleman can say is unjust. The representation in this House is itself a demonstration of it. The population of this country may be pretty safely determined by the proportion of representatives in this House; for it is established on this ground. I therefore believe, that the principle of population inclines to this place, in preference to a more southern situation.

But, in taking the principle of territory, are the House to calculate on the uninhabited wilderness? Shall they take the Lake of the Woods on one side, and the Missouri on the other, and find a geographical centre? If so, to what an extent must they go? The inhabited and populated part of the country ought chiefly to be considered. If St. Croix is taken as the eastern limit, and St. Mary as the southern, the centre of the line will be found to fall pretty near the Susquehanna.

Mr. SEDGWICK.--I beg leave to ask, if there really is any impropriety in gentlemen's consulting together, who have a uniformity of interest, upon a question which has been said to be of such infinite importance? My colleague has barely stated that such a consultation has taken place, and that, in consequence of it, men's minds have been induced to run in a current. Is there any thing wrong in this? Let those, then, who are determined not to consult, nor have any communication on such a subject, decide for themselves. I should think myself lost to that regard I owe to my country, and to my immediate constituents in particular, should I abstract myself from the contemplation of the benefits that would flow from knowing the feelings and sentiments of those with whom I am to act. Instead of being an evidence to that aristocratic spirit which has been mentioned, it is only a proof that men, attentive to their business, had preferred that way, which every honest man had in view. I have contemplated the subject with great anxiety, and though I cannot declare that my local situation has had no influence on my mind, yet I will say I endeavored to prevent its having any. I believe that the true interests of the country will be best answered by taking a position eastward and northward of the Susquehanna.

The Delaware is one extreme, the Potomac another; but when I reflect how anxious some gentlemen are for the one, and some for the other, I am willing to accommodate both parties, by advancing to a middle ground, to which I hope the public mind will be reconciled. I was also influenced in fixing this opinion, by the sentiment of the celebrated Montesquieu. He had laid it down, that in a country partaking of northern and southern interests, of a poor and productive soil, the centre and the influence of Government ought to incline to that part where the former circumstances prevailed; because necessity stimulates to industry, produces good habits and a surplus of labor; because such parts are the nurseries of soldiers and sailors, and the sources of that energy which is the best security of the Government.

The Susquehanna is, in my opinion, south-west of the centre of wealth, population, and resources of every kind. I would beg leave, gentlemen, to suggest another idea. In my view, on the principles of population, the Susquehanna is far beyond the centre; for I do not think it just, on this subject, to take the constitutional computation. Will any gentlemen pretend, that men, who are merely the subject of property or wealth, should be taken into the estimate; that the slaves of the country, men who have no rights to protect, (being deprived of them all,) should be taken into view, in determining the centre of Government? If they were considered, gentlemen might as well estimate the black cattle of New England.

I would ask, if it is of no importance to take a position in which the credit of the Government may procure those supplies that its necessities might require? Will the strength and riches of the country be to the north or to the south of the Susquehanna? Certainly to the north.

It is the opinion of all the Eastern States, that the climate of the Potomac is not only unhealthy, but destructive to northern constitutions. It is of importance to attend to this, for whether it be true or false, such are the public prepossessions. Vast numbers of Eastern adventures have gone to the Southern States, and all have found their graves there; they have met destruction as soon as they arrived. These accounts have been spread, and filled the Northern people with apprehension.

Mr. VINING.--Although I must acknowledge myself a party to the bargain, yet I had no share in making it. It is to me an unexpected bargain. Though the interest of the State which I have the honor to represent is involved in it, I am yet to learn of the committee, whether Congress are to tickle the trout on the stream of the Codorus, to build their sumptuous palaces on the banks of the Potomac, or to admire commerce with her expanded wings, on the waters of the Delaware. I have, on this occasion, educated my mind to impartiality, and have endeavored to chastise its prejudices.

I confess to the House, and to the world, that, viewing this subject, with all its circumstances, I am in favor of the Potomac. I wish the seat of Government to be fixed there; because I think the interest, the honor, and the greatness of this country require it. I look on it as the centre from which those streams are to flow that are to animate and invigorate the body politic. From thence, it appears to me, the rays of Government will most naturally diverge to the extremities of the Union. I declare, that I look on the Western Territory in an awful and striking point of view. To that region the unpolished sons of earth are flowing from all quarters; men, to whom the protection of the laws, and the controlling force of the Government, are equally necessary. From this great consideration, I conclude that the banks of the Potomac are the proper station.

Mr. SENEY mentioned Peach Bottom, on the Susquehanna, about fifteen miles above tide-water, as the proper place.

Mr. GOODHUE did not wish the particular spot pointed out, because some inconvenience would result from such a measure; however, he was free to declare, that his own idea was in favor of a situation near Wright's Ferry.

Mr. HEISTER moved to insert Harrisburg in the resolution. He conceived the spot to be more eligible than any yet mentioned; from hence there was an uninterrupted navigation to the sources of the river, and through this place runs the great Western road leading to Fort Pitt, and the Western Territory. A water communication can be effected at small expense with Philadelphia. The waters of the Swetara, a branch of the Susquehanna, about eight miles below Harrisburg, run to the north-east, and are navigable fifteen miles from thence to the Tulpehoken, a branch of the Schuylkill; a canal may be cut across, of about a mile and a half, the ground has been actually surveyed, and found practicable; this will unite the Susquehanna and Delaware, and open a passage for the produce of an immense tract of country. It is but little further from Philadelphia than is Wright's Ferry; and, on many accounts, he thought it a preferable situation for the permanent seat of Government.

Mr. MADISON meant to pay due attention to every argument that could be urged on this important question. Facts had been asserted, the impressions of which he wished to be erased, if they were not well founded. It has been said, that the communication with the Western Territory, by the Susquehanna, is more convenient than by the Potomac. I apprehend this is not the case; and the propriety of our decision will depend, in a great measure, on the superior advantages of one of these two streams. It is agreed, on all hands, that we ought to have some regard to the convenience of the Atlantic navigation. Now, to embrace this object, a position must be taken on some navigable river; to favor the communication with the Western Territory, its arms ought likewise to extend themselves towards that region. I did not suppose it would have been necessary to bring forward charts and maps, as has been done by others, to show the committee the comparative situation of those rivers. I flattered myself it was sufficiently understood, to enable us to decide the question of superiority; but I am now inclined to believe, that gentlemen have embraced an error, and I hope they are not determined to vote under improper impressions. I venture to pledge myself for the demonstration, that the communication with the Western Territory, by the Potomac, is more certain and convenient than the other. And if the question is as important as it is admitted to be, gentlemen will not shut their ears to information; they will not precipitate the decision; or if they regard the satisfaction of our constituents, they will allow them to be informed of all the facts and arguments that lead to the decision of a question in which the general and particular interests of all parts of the Union are involved.

Mr. STONE found gentlemen had determined on a step that was not generally liked; he wished, therefore, the committee to rise, and give all of them an opportunity of trying to mend the bargain that had been made; perhaps they might find, upon reflection, that they ought to decide the question on more national principles than they seemed yet to be governed by.

Mr. SENEY could not say how far the motion was agreeable to every part of America; but he believed it would be acceptable to a very considerable part of the State he had the honor to represent.

Mr. SUMTER was in favor of the committee's rising, in order to give gentlemen time to ascertain the facts necessary to guide them to a decision. There was one impropriety which struck him forcibly; the resolution adopted as a principle that the seat of Government ought to be in a convenient place for the navigation of the Atlantic Ocean. But the situation mentioned in the resolution under consideration had no communication whatever with the Atlantic navigation. It had been said, that the Susquehanna afforded the most convenient communication with the Western Territory. He believed the Hudson possessed superior advantages; it connected with the country about the Lakes and the Ohio. From New York to Albany was navigable; from thence to Schenectady, there was a short portage; after ascending Schenectady, there was a short portage of half a mile to the Mohawk; from thence, another short portage to Wood Creek, and thence into Lake Ontario, which connects with Lake Erie; and from thence are portages to the Wabash, Miami, Muskingum or Alleghany, all falling into the Ohio. But the Potomac possessed advantages superior to these; and was, both on account of communicating with the Atlantic and Western Territory, much to be preferred to the Susquehanna. He assured gentlemen that he was unbiased in giving a preference to the Potomac; because, if he studied his own convenience, he should consider New York as more eligible than either. It accommodated the Atlantic navigation in a superior manner, and had its pretensions to a connection with the Western waters, as he had already shown. He hoped, however, that the subject would be debated with candor and good temper, and decided in the way most likely to promote the general interests and harmony of the Union.

Mr. SHERMAN was against taking up the subject so soon; but since it had been determined against him,--gentlemen, he presumed, had endeavored to make up their minds,--he had turned his attention to it, and was now prepared to decide.

Mr. CLYMER knew the advantages possessed by the Susquehanna in communicating with the Western country; they were mentioned by his colleague; but, with the additional circumstance that the Juniata branch afforded a convenient navigation to a road lately laid out by the State of Pennsylvania, which connected with the Kisskaminetas, from whence was a short voyage down the Alleghany, and shorter still down that to the Ohio, at Pittsburg. He questioned much if the navigation by the Potomac was so convenient.

Mr. STONE did not mean to govern his vote on this occasion by what was said to be the sense of the citizens of Maryland; because they were, he apprehended, divided in opinion. One part or the other would be particularly benefited, as the seat of Government should be fixed either on the Susquehanna or Potomac, because those rivers watered its territory. Perhaps the majority of the present inhabitants would prefer the Susquehanna; but as their settlements extended westward, and the population increased, the majority would be favored by the Potomac.

Mr. SENEY did not mean to determine this question on the principle of benefiting, exclusively, the citizens of Maryland; he considered himself as a Representative of the Union, and should decide on the principle of general convenience.

Mr. TUCKER hoped the committee would rise, in order to give gentlemen time to consider the subject maturely, and to prepare themselves to come forward and discuss, fairly and fully, the advantages and disadvantages of the rival places. He could not believe they meant to decide a question of this importance on the superficial discussion which had taken place.

The question, on the committee's rising, was now put, and it passed in the negative; for it 23, against it 27.

Mr. STONE.--We are called upon, sir, to determine a question that has not been introduced to our notice more than two hours and a half; a question too, as admitted on both sides, of the highest importance to the interests and harmony of the Union. I cannot help thinking it a hardship to be compelled so abruptly to a decision; but since it must be the case, I shall take the liberty of suggesting a few of my thoughts, in order to justify the vote I mean to give.

There are a variety of considerations and doubts in my mind, respecting the two rivers that have been mentioned. These doubts are increased when a particular place is named upon one of them; but had gentlemen told us, that they had settled this point also, it might have precluded any sort of debate whatever; because when an agreement had taken place, not only as to the banks of the Susquehanna, but as to the favored spot on those banks, we should not have entertained a single hope that we could have changed the position. But, as gentlemen differ among themselves on this point, perhaps they will permit us to participate with them in selecting the place most likely to give general satisfaction. But how can they suppose we are prepared on this head, without a general consideration of all the places which may offer themselves along the east bank of the river.

I am not apprised, sir, of the extent of this continent certainly, because I never calculated it by figures, or measured it on the map; but if there is the smallest degree of accuracy in the draft that has been handed about, no man, who takes a view of it, in my opinion, will doubt a single moment, whether the Susquehanna is the river, which nearly equally divides the territory of the United States, in its extent north and south, that separates, in equal parts, the country east and west. The eastern part, I take it, is little, if any thing, more than half as large as what lies west. We observe that the course of the main branch tends more toward the Atlantic Ocean, than it does toward the Western Territory; but even its western inclination goes only toward the lakes Erie and Ontario, through the middle of which runs the boundary line of the United States. How can this, then, be supposed a direct or convenient communication with that part of the country which is usually termed, and is in fact, the Western Territory?

In fixing the permanent residence, we ought not only to have in view the immediate importance of the States, but also what is likely to be their weight at a future day; not that we should consider a visionary importance, or chimerical expectation, but such a one as can be demonstrated with as much certainty as effects follow their causes. I apprehend the increase of population to the eastward is merely conditional; there is nothing to invite people to settle in the northern parts of this continent, in preference to the southern; even if they were settled there, every principle which encourages population would operate to induce them to emigrate to the southern and western parts. We know the northern climate is severe, the winters long, and summers short, and that the soil is less fertile. Were we not assuredly acquainted that this was the case on the continent of America, we should be led to the same conclusion, by reasoning from our knowledge of the other parts of the globe. Men multiply in proportion to the means of support, and this is more abundant in a mild than a severe climate. Hence, I infer, that the climate, and means of subsistence, will ever operate as a stimulus to promote the population of the Southern, in preference to the Northern States. This doctrine is daily exemplified. If we advert to the situation of that part of the Western country, called Kentucky, and compare its increase of population since the war, with any part of the Eastern States, we shall find men multiplied there beyond any thing known in America; and if we consider its natural advantages, we shall conclude it will be an important part of the Union. The river which has been mentioned by the southern gentlemen is, as far as I am acquainted, extremely well calculated to furnish Government with the key of that country; and a river, I believe, richer in its exports than any I have contemplated on the face of the earth.

A call was now made to order, and Mr. STONE sat down. A desultory conversation took place on the point of order. It was contended, that the question was on the insertion of Harrisburg, in the proposition offered by Mr. GOODHUE; whereas Mr. STONE was speaking to the main question.

Messrs. CARROLL, LEE and MADISON insisted that Mr. STONE was in order, inasmuch as Mr. HEISTER'S motion necessarily involved the main question, and was inseparable from it.

But it was decided by the Chair to be out of order; whereupon the question was taken, without further debate, on inserting Harrisburg, and it was determined in the negative.

The main question being now before the committee,