Chapter XXIII: Introduction (22)

Mr. SEDGWICK.--I will express my idea on the point which the gentleman has made an inquiry respecting, in a few words. I said, that I conceived a delay of this business would endanger the peace of the Union by diminishing the energy of the Government, without which this constitution would be of no value. These are considerations which must appear weighty and important, if justly considered by the committee. A great and respectable body of our citizens are creditors of the United States. There are a variety of opinions prevailing respecting their claims, with respect to funding, discrimination, and interest. This diversity of opinion may probably irritate and produce heats and animosities, which may terminate in forming factions among the people. The State debts may produce a difference between the General and particular Governments. If the matter is taken up as the business of a party, one may be pitted against the other, until, in the end, they disturb the public tranquillity, or sacrifice the general welfare to opposition and party spirit. Besides this, the reputation, the credit of the Government is at stake; the public expectation is alive to all the measures of Government at the present moment. They expect that justice and equity will be administered as far as the abilities of our country extend; it lies with the Legislature to realize this expectation. If Congress pursue the present inquiry, and come to a determination without delay, the public sentiment will be brought to a point, and a general acquiescence may be expected; but if it is postponed to a future session, such may be the effect of faction and disappointment during the recess, that the probability is, that no one party will comprise a sufficient number to comprehend the majority of the whole.

Mr. JACKSON.--Do not gentlemen think there is some danger on the other side? Will there not be ground of uneasiness when the soldier and the meritorious citizen are called upon to pay the speculator more than ten times the amount they ever received from him for their securities? I believe, Mr. Chairman, there is more just reason of alarm on this than on the other side of the question.

A gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. HARTLEY) has noticed my arguments of yesterday, respecting a funding system. I beg leave to make a few observations in answer to him. He has said, that a funded debt is of great advantage to a nation, and has adduced the situation of England as a proof, founded on experience. But England is a solitary example, and the force of that example dwindles into nothing, if we examine into the real cause of her seeming affluence. She does not owe much of respectability to her national debt; she owes the most of it, at present, to the troubles of other countries, and when those have subsided, the bubble of her credit may blow up, as did the South Sea project, for Government stock can never be considered as cash. The stock employed in agriculture, commerce, and manufactures may, by great prospects of advantage, be diverted into the hands of brokers, for the purpose of speculating further in the funds; but no real addition will be made to the means of productive industry, nor was any thing of this kind contemplated at the time funding was first introduced into England. We learn from _Blackstone_, that the reason for establishing a national debt, was in order to support a system of foreign politics, and to establish the new succession at the revolution; because it was deemed expedient to create a new interest, called the moneyed interest, in favor of the Prince of Orange, in opposition to the landed interest, which was supposed to be generally in favor of the king, who had abdicated the throne. I hope there is no such reason existing here; our Government, I trust, is firmly established without the assistance of stock-jobbers. We ought to reign universally in the hearts of our fellow-citizens, on account of the salutary tendency of our measures to promote the general welfare, and not depend upon the support of a party, who have no other cause to esteem us but because we realize their golden dreams of unlooked-for success.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)--If we were about to contract debts for the purpose of funding them, the observations of the gentleman from Georgia would apply; but we have already contracted them, and the only question is, shall we fund or pay? We must do one or the other. With respect to the remark of Blackstone, he is writing of an enormous public debt when he mentions it as injurious, because he expressly says, that "a certain proportion of debt seems to be highly useful to a trading people; but what proportion that is it is not for me to determine." To be sure he adds afterwards, "that the present magnitude of our national encumbrances very far exceeds all calculations of commercial benefit, and is productive of the greatest inconveniences." And here I agree with him: but our public debt is not of such enormous magnitude as to counterbalance the good effects of throwing out such a quantity of a stable paper as will answer all the purposes of a circulating medium.

Mr. TUCKER.--I very much applaud the gentleman who made the motion now before the committee, because he has boldly come forward to combat an opinion so generally received in this place, that many thought it could not be controverted by any man possessed of common honesty; and because I am persuaded, that he has done it with an honorable intention of substituting real and substantial justice, in the place of that which he deems to be only the name and the shadow.

Although it is probable I differ with the gentleman who moved the amendment, I am inclined to think a discrimination of some kind is equitable and necessary. I believe it may be fairly said, that there are three classes of domestic creditors. The first, those who hold the Continental bills of credit, which have been long out of circulation. Second, those who hold certificates that were given for services or supplies, in their own names. And, third, those who hold certificates by purchase. I would wish to consider the obligation to each of these three classes, and whether, in equity, some kind of discrimination may not be made. On a strict and impartial examination, I am inclined to believe they will not appear to be the same. I will now turn to the examination of the first; namely, the holders of the Continental bills of credit. The Secretary of the Treasury has reported in favor of some degree of provision being made for them. But, sir, what is the situation of the people who hold these bills? If I recollect rightly, the face of the bills declares, that the bearer shall be entitled to receive so many Spanish milled dollars as is therein expressed. When these bills were issued, their real value was equal to their nominal value; no person refused, or wished to refuse, them as such; but, in a short time, too large a quantity were issued, and they began to depreciate. Congress then recommended to the several States to pass tender-laws for the support of their credit. This was done by all the States; and they continued, in some of them, to pass as specie, under those laws, when they were depreciated twenty, thirty, and forty for one. Those people, who received them in this state, suffered a very great loss by an act of the Government, and many were ruined by the measure. When these bills had thus depreciated, Congress passed a resolution, calling them in at forty for one. This ordinance of Congress immediately reduced the claims of the first class of creditors by an arbitrary act of power. I do not pretend to say that the measure was unnecessary, but it was rigorous to deprive them of 39-40ths of their claims. Perhaps we cannot return to all the transactions of that time, because it would involve the Government in a thousand difficulties, and produce, perhaps, greater evils than it would remedy. But there remains a claim upon our justice to pay the holders one dollar, at least, for forty. By the act of Congress, which I alluded to before, these bills were thrown out of circulation, and have ever since lain in the hands of individuals. Now, it appears to me, that, in equity, we ought to make all the reparation in our power. Surely, then, we ought to allow interest on the principal from the time the bills were scaled, and forced out of circulation. These creditors, I take it, have a strong claim upon us; because the Government has materially injured them, and the least satisfaction we can give them, is to put this part of the debt on the best footing we can; if we cannot do complete justice, let us approximate towards it as far as it is in our power. The second class of our creditors have obligations that are strong. It has been said, and generally passed current as an incontrovertible opinion, that those who transferred their certificates have conferred to the purchaser every claim they had upon the public. I mean, sir, to deny this assertion. There is a claim which they could not transfer, that is, a claim in equity;, they were entitled to the principal sum when they presented their accounts to the United States, and we ought, in justice, to have paid it at that time; but, perhaps, from our inability to do this, we were obliged to force on them a certificate of the balance, with a promise to pay them an annual interest thereon; but a promise to pay the interest does not exonerate us from paying the principal, as soon as we have it in our power. Now, this is a claim which the original creditor, who parted with the evidence of his debt, did not transfer to the person to whom he sold it. The United States are under no contract with the purchaser who bought a loaned debt, to pay him any thing more than what the paper specifies, that is, to pay him the interest from year to year, but not the principal, until we find it convenient.

Then, with respect to the third class, if the residue of the revenue is insufficient to pay them the interest on their whole principal, I would give them certificates for such part as we are able to provide for the payment of the interest upon, at six per cent., to be paid in the same manner with the others. And I would give them other certificates for the remainder, on a like interest of six per cent., the payment whereof should commence at a fixed period, say three, four, or five years, as it might be found that the increasing resources of our country would, enable us to do; but I would undertake nothing now beyond our present ability.

THURSDAY, February 11.

[Mr. FITZSIMONS presented the address of the yearly (Quaker) meeting of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and the Western parts of Maryland and Virginia, held at Philadelphia, against the continuance of the African slave trade, and praying Congress to remove that reproach from the land, and Mr. LAWRENCE presented an Address to the same effect from the Society of Friends in New York.]

Mr. HARTLEY moved to refer the Address of the annual assembly of Friends, held at Philadelphia, to a committee; he thought it a mark of respect due to so numerous and respectable a part of the community.

Mr. WHITE seconded the motion.

Mr. SMITH (of S. C.)--However respectable the petitioners may be, I hope gentlemen will consider that others equally respectable are opposed to the object which is aimed at, and are entitled to an opportunity of being heard before the question is determined. I flatter myself gentlemen will not press the point of commitment to-day, it being contrary to our usual mode of procedure.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--If we were now to determine the final question, the observation of the gentleman from South Carolina would apply; but, sir, the present question does not touch upon the merits of the case; it is merely to refer the memorial to a committee, to consider what is proper to be done; gentlemen, therefore, who do not mean to oppose the commitment to-morrow, may as well agree to it to-day, because it will tend to save the time of the House.

Mr. JACKSON wished to know why the second reading was to be contended for to-day, when it was diverting the attention of the members from the great object that was before the Committee of the Whole? Is it because the feelings of the Friends will be hurt to have their affair conducted in the usual course of business? Gentlemen, who advocate the second reading to-day, should respect the feelings of the members who represent that part of the Union which is principally affected by the measure. I believe, sir, that the latter class consists of as useful and as good citizens as the petitioners, men equally friends to the revolution, and equally susceptible of the refined sensations of humanity and benevolence. Why, then, should such particular attention be paid to them, for bringing forward a business of questionable policy? If Congress are disposed to interfere in the importation of slaves, they can take the subject up without advisers, because the constitution expressly mentions all the power they can exercise on the subject.

Mr. SHERMAN suggested the idea of referring it to a committee, to consist of a member from each State, because several States had already made some regulations on this subject. The sooner the subject was taken up he thought it would be the better.

Mr. PARKER.--I hope, Mr. Speaker, the petition of these respectable people will be attended to with all the readiness the importance of its object demands; and I cannot help expressing the pleasure I feel in finding so considerable a part of the community attending to matters of such momentous concern to the future prosperity and happiness of the people of America. I think it my duty, as a citizen of the Union, to espouse their cause; and it is incumbent upon every member of this House to sift the subject well, and ascertain what can be done to restrain a practice so nefarious. The constitution has authorized us to levy a tax upon the importation of such persons as the States shall authorize to be admitted. I would willingly go to that extent; and if any thing further can be devised to discountenance the trade, consistent with the terms of the constitution, I shall cheerfully give it my assent and support.

Mr. MADISON.--The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. FITZSIMONS) has put this question on its proper ground; if gentlemen do not mean to oppose the commitment to-morrow, they may as well acquiesce in it to-day; and, I apprehend, gentlemen need not be alarmed at any measure it is likely Congress will take; because they will recollect, that the constitution secures to the individual States the right of admitting, if they think proper, the importation of slaves into their own territory, for eighteen years yet unexpired; subject, however, to a tax, if Congress are disposed to impose it, of not more than ten dollars on each person. The petition, if I mistake not, speaks of artifices used by self-interested persons to carry on this trade; and the petition from New York states a case that may require the consideration of Congress. If any thing is within the Federal authority to restrain such violation of the rights of nations and of mankind, as is supposed to be practised in some parts of the United States, it will certainly tend to the interest and honor of the community to attempt a remedy, and is a proper subject for our discussion. It may be, that foreigners take the advantage of the liberty afforded them by the American trade, to employ our shipping in the slave trade between Africa and the West Indies, when they are restrained from employing their own by restrictive laws of their nation. If this is the case, is there any person of humanity that would not wish to prevent them? Another consideration why we should commit the petition is, that we may give no ground of alarm by a serious opposition, as if we were about to take measures that were unconstitutional.

Mr. _Stone_ feared that if Congress took any measures indicative of an intention to interfere with the kind of property alluded to, it would sink it in value very considerably, and might be injurious to a great number of the citizens, particularly in the Southern States. He thought the subject was of general concern, and that the petitioners had no more right to interfere with it than any other members of the community. It was an unfortunate circumstance, that it was the disposition of religious sects to imagine they understood the rights of human nature better than all the world besides; and that they would, in consequence, be meddling with concerns in which they had nothing to do. As the petition relates to a subject of a general nature, it ought to lie on the table as information. He would never consent to refer petitions, unless the petitioners were exclusively interested. Suppose there was a petition to come before us from a society, praying us to be honest in our transactions, or that we should administer the constitution according to its intent, what would you do with a petition of this kind? Certainly it would remain on your table. He would, however, not have it supposed that the people had not a right to advise and give their opinion upon public measures; but he would not be influenced by that advice or opinion to take up a subject sooner than the convenience of other business would admit. Unless he changed his sentiments, he would oppose the commitment.

Mr. BURKE thought gentlemen were paying attention to what did not deserve it. The men in the gallery had come here to meddle in a business with which they have nothing to do; they were volunteering in the cause of others, who neither expected nor desired it. He had a respect for the body of Quakers, but, nevertheless, he did not believe they had more virtue or religion than other people, nor perhaps so much, if they were examined to the bottom, notwithstanding their outward pretences. If their petition is to be noticed, Congress ought to wait till counter applications were made, and then they might have the subject more fairly before them. The rights of the Southern States ought not to be threatened, and their property endangered, to please people who would be unaffected by the consequences.

Mr. HARTLEY thought the memorialists did not deserve to be aspersed for their conduct, if influenced by motives of benignity. They solicited the Legislature of the Union, to prevent, as far as is in their power, the increase of a licentious traffic; nor do they merit censure, because their behavior has the appearance of more morality than other people. Congress ought not to refuse to hear the applications of their fellow-citizens, while those applications contain nothing unconstitutional or offensive. What is the object of the address before us? It is intended to bring before this House a subject of great importance to the cause of humanity; there are certain facts to be inquired into, and the memorialists are ready to give all the information in their power; they are waiting, at a great distance from their homes, and wish to return; if, then, it will be proper to commit the petition to-morrow, it will be equally proper to-day, for it is conformable to our practice; besides, it will tend to their conveniency.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--The gentleman from South Carolina says, the petitioners are of a society not known in the laws or constitution. Sir, in all our acts, as well as in the constitution, we have noticed this society; or, why is it that we admit them to affirm in cases where others are called upon to swear? If we pay this attention to them, in one instance, what good reason is there for contemning them in another? I think the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. STONE) carries his apprehensions too far, when he fears that negro property will fall in value, by the suppression of the slave trade; not that I suppose it immediately in the power of Congress to abolish a traffic which is a disgrace to human nature; but it appears to me, that, if the importation was crushed, the value of a slave would be increased instead of diminished; however, considerations of this kind have nothing to do with the present question. Gentlemen may acquiesce in the commitment of the memorial, without pledging themselves to support its object.

Mr. JACKSON.--I differ much in opinion with the gentleman last up. I apprehend, if through the interference of the General Government the slave trade was abolished, it would evince to the people a disposition towards a total emancipation, and they would hold their property in jeopardy. Any extraordinary attention of Congress to this petition may have, in some degree, a similar effect. I would beg to ask those, then, who are desirous of freeing the negroes, if they have funds sufficient to pay for them? If they have, they may come forward on that business with some propriety; but, if they have not, they should keep themselves quiet, and not interfere with a business in which they are not interested. They may as well come forward and solicit Congress to interdict the West India trade, because it is injurious to the morals of mankind; from thence we import rum, which has a debasing influence upon the consumer. But, sir, is the whole morality of the United States confined to the Quakers? Are they the only people whose feelings are to be consulted on this occasion? Is it to them we owe our present happiness? Was it they who formed the constitution? Did they, by their arms or contributions, establish our independence? I believe they were generally opposed to that measure: why, then, on their application, should we injure men who, at the risk of their lives and fortunes, secured to the community their liberty and property? If Congress pay any uncommon degree of attention to their petition, it will furnish just ground of alarm to the Southern States. But why do these men set themselves up in such a particular manner against slavery? Do they understand the rights of mankind, and the disposition of Providence, better than others? If they were to consult that book, which claims our regard, they will find that slavery is not only allowed but commended. Their Saviour, who possessed more benevolence and commiseration than they pretend to, has allowed of it: and if they fully examine the subject, they will find that slavery has been no novel doctrine since the days of Cain; but be these things as they may, I hope the House will order the petition to lie on the table, in order to prevent an alarm to our Southern brethren.

Mr. SEDGWICK.--If it was a serious question whether the memorial should be committed or not, I would not urge it at this time; but that cannot be a question for a moment, if we consider our relative situation with the people. A number of men, who are certainly very respectable, and of whom, as a society, it may be said with truth, that they conform their moral conduct to their religious tenets, as much as any people in the whole community, come forward and tell you, that you may effect two objects by the exercise of a constitutional authority, which will give great satisfaction. On the one hand, you may acquire revenue, and on the other, restrain a practice productive of great evil. Now, setting aside the religious motives which influence their application, have they not a right as citizens to give their opinion of public measures? For my part, I do not apprehend that any State, or any considerable number of individuals in any State, will be seriously alarmed at the commitment of the petition, from a fear that Congress intend to exercise an unconstitutional authority, in order to violate their rights. I believe there is not a wish of the kind entertained by any member of this body; how can gentlemen hesitate, then, to pay that respect to a memorial which it is entitled to, according to the ordinary mode of procedure in business? Why shall we defer doing that till to-morrow, which we can do to-day; for the result, I apprehend, will be the same in either case.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)--The question, I apprehend, is whether we will take the petition up for a second reading, and not whether it shall be committed? Now, I oppose this, because it is contrary to our usual practice, and does not allow gentlemen time to consider of the merits of the prayer. Perhaps some gentlemen may think it improper to commit it to so large a committee as has been mentioned; a variety of causes may be supposed to show that such a hasty decision is improper; perhaps the prayer of it is improper. If I understood it right on its first reading, though to be sure I did not comprehend perfectly all that the petition contained, it prays that we should take measures for the abolition of the slave trade. This is desiring an unconstitutional act, because the constitution secures that trade to the States, independent of Congressional restrictions, for a term of twenty-one years. If, therefore, it prays for a violation of constitutional rights, it ought to be rejected as an attempt upon the virtue and patriotism of the House.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--It has been said, that the Quakers have no right to interfere in this business. I am surprised to hear this doctrine advanced, after it has been so lately contended and settled, that the people have a right to assemble and petition for redress of grievances. It is not because the petition comes from the society of Quakers that I am in favor of the commitment, but because it comes from citizens of the United States who are equally concerned in the welfare and happiness of their country with others. There certainly is no foundation for the apprehensions which seem to prevail in gentlemen's minds. If the petitioners were so uninformed as to suppose that Congress could be guilty of a violation of the constitution, yet I trust we know our duty better than to be led astray by an application from any man or set of men whatever. I do not consider the merits of the main question to be before us; it will be time enough to give our opinions upon that when the committee have reported. If it is in our power, by recommendation, or any other way, to put a stop to the slave trade in America, I do not doubt of its policy; but how far the constitution will authorize us to attempt to depress it, will be a question well worthy of our consideration.

Mr. SHERMAN observed, that the petitioners from New York stated, that they had applied to the Legislature of that State to prohibit certain practices which they conceived to be improper, and which tended to injure the well-being of the community; that the Legislature had considered the application, but had applied no remedy, because they supposed that power was exclusively vested in the General Government under the Constitution of the United States; it would, therefore, be proper to commit that petition, in order to ascertain what are the powers of the General Government in the case.

Mr. GERRY thought gentlemen were out of order in entering upon the merits of the main question at this time, when they were considering the expediency of committing the petition. He should, therefore, not follow them further in that track than barely to observe, that it was the right of the citizens to apply for redress, in every case in which they conceived themselves aggrieved; and it was the duty of Congress to afford redress as far as in their power. That their Southern brethren had been betrayed into the slave trade by the first settlers, was to be lamented; they were not to be reflected on for not viewing this subject in a different light, the prejudice of education is eradicated with difficulty; but he thought nothing would excuse the General Government for not exerting itself to prevent, as far as they constitutionally could, the evils resulting from such enormities as were alluded to by the petitioners; and the same considerations induced him highly to commend the part the Society of Friends had taken; it was the cause of humanity they had interested themselves in, and he wished, with them, to see measures pursued by every nation, to wipe off the indelible stain which the slave trade had brought upon all who were concerned in it.

Mr. MADISON thought the question before the committee was no otherwise important than as gentlemen made it so by their serious opposition. Had they permitted the commitment of the memorial, as a matter of course, no notice would have been taken of it out of doors; it could never have been blown up into a decision of the question respecting the discouragement of the African slave-trade, nor alarm the owners with an apprehension that the General Government were about to abolish slavery in all the States; such things are not contemplated by any gentleman; but they excite alarm by their extended objections to committing the memorials. Gentlemen may vote for the commitment of the petition without any intention of supporting the prayer of it.

Mr. WHITE would not have seconded the motion, if he had thought it would have brought on a lengthy debate. He conceived that a business of this kind ought to be decided without much discussion; it had constantly been the practice of the House, and he did not suppose there was any reason for a deviation.

Mr. PAGE said, if the memorial had been presented by any individual, instead of the respectable body from whom it emanated, he should have voted in favor of a commitment, because it was the duty of the Legislature to attend to subjects brought before them by their constituents; if, upon inquiry, it was discovered to be improper to comply with the prayer of the petitioners, he would say so, and they would be satisfied.

Mr. STONE thought the business ought to be left to take its usual course; by the rules of the House, it was expressly declared that petitions, memorials, and other papers, addressed to the House should not be debated or decided on the day they were first read.

Mr. BALDWIN felt at a loss to account why precipitation was used on this occasion, contrary to the customary usage of the House. He had not heard a single reason advanced in favor of it. To be sure it was said the petitioners are a respectable body of men; he did not deny it; but certainly gentlemen did not suppose they were paying respect to them or to the House, when they urged such a hasty procedure. It was contrary to his idea of respect, and the idea the House had always expressed, when they had important subjects under consideration; and, therefore, he should be against the motion. He was afraid that there was really a little volunteering in this business, as it had been termed by the gentleman from Georgia.

Mr. HUNTINGTON considered the petitioners as much disinterested as any persons in the United States; he was persuaded they had an aversion to slavery, yet they were not singular in this; others had the same; and he hoped, when Congress took up the subject, they would go as far as possible to prohibit the evil complained of. But he thought that would be better done by considering it in the light of revenue; when the Committee of the Whole on questions of finance might properly take the subject into consideration, without giving any ground for alarm.

Mr. TUCKER.--I have no doubt on my mind respecting what ought to be done on this occasion; so far from committing the memorial, we ought to dismiss it without further notice. What is the purport of the memorial? It is plainly this, to reprobate a particular kind of commerce, in a moral point of view, and to request the interposition of Congress to effect its abrogation. But Congress has no authority, under the constitution, to do more than lay a duty of ten dollars upon each person imported; and this is a political consideration, not arising from either religion or morality, and is the only principle upon which we can proceed to take it up. But what effect do these men suppose will arise from their exertions? Will a duty of ten dollars diminish the importation? Will the treatment be better than usual? I apprehend not; nay, it may be worse, because an interference with the subject may excite a great degree of restlessness in the minds of those it is intended to serve, and that may be a cause for the masters to use more rigor towards them than they would otherwise exert: so that these men seem to overshoot their object. But if they will endeavor to procure the abolition of the slave trade, let them prefer their petitions to the State Legislatures, who alone have the power of forbidding the importation. I believe their applications there would be improper; but if they are any where proper, it is there. I look upon the address then to be ill-judged, however good the intention of the framers.

Mr. SMITH claimed it as a right that the petition should lie over till to-morrow.

THURSDAY, February 11.

_Assumption of State Debts._

[Mr. MADISON's motion to discriminate between original
creditors and present holders, so as to pay claims in full
to the former, and the highest market price to the
assignee, and the remainder to the original creditor.]

The House then again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole upon the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. BALDWIN in the chair.

Mr. BURKE's amendment being under consideration,

Mr. BURKE said, he had brought his motion forward, in consequence of a hasty promise he had given a member of this House; but as he did not mean to support it, or vote for it, he would withdraw it.

Mr. MADISON.--No gentleman, Mr. Chairman, has expressed more strongly than I feel, the importance and difficulty of the subject before us. Although I have endeavored to view it under all its aspects, and analyze it in all its principles, yet have I kept my mind open, and been anxious to aid my own reflections by the reflected light to be expected from gentlemen on this floor who enter into the discussion. For this purpose, I have chosen hitherto rather to be a hearer than a speaker on the subject, and should even at this moment have continued in my seat, but that the turn which the business has taken, renders it requisite for me now, if at all, to trouble the committee with my reflections, and the opinion in which they have terminated.

It has been said, by some gentlemen, that the debt itself does not exist in the extent and form which is generally supposed. I confess, sir, I differ altogether from the gentleman who takes that ground. Let us consider, first, by whom the debt was contracted, and then let us consider to whom it is due. The debt was contracted by the United States, who, with respect to that particular transaction, were in a national capacity. The Government was nothing more than the agent or organ, by which the whole body of the people acted. The change in the Government which has taken place has enlarged its national capacity, but it has not varied the national obligation, with respect to the engagements entered into by that transaction. For, in like manner, the present Government is nothing more than the organ, or agent, of the public. The obligation which they are under, is precisely the same with that under which the debt was contracted; although the Government has been changed, the nation remains the same. There is no change in our political duty, nor in the moral or political obligation. The language I now use, sir, is the language of the constitution itself; it declares that all debts shall have the same validity against the United States, under the new, as under the old form of Government. The obligation remains the same, though I hope experience will prove that the ability has been favorably varied.

The next question is, to what amount the public are at present indebted? I conceive the question may be answered in a few words. The United States owe the value they received, which they acknowledge, and which they have promised to pay: what is that value? It is a certain sum in principal, bearing an interest of six per cent. No logic, no magic, in my opinion, can diminish the force of the obligation.

The only point on which we can deliberate is, to whom the payment is really due; for this purpose, it will be proper to take notice of the several descriptions of people who are creditors of the Union, and lay down some principles respecting them, which may lead us to a just and equitable decision. As there is a small part of the debt yet unliquidated, it may be well to pass it by and come to the great mass of the liquidated debt. It may here be proper to notice four classes into which it may be divided:

_First_, Original creditors, who have never alienated their
securities.

_Second_, Original creditors who have alienated.

_Third_, Present holders of alienated securities.

_Fourth_, Intermediate holders, through whose hands
securities have circulated.

The only principles that can govern the decision on their respective pretensions, I take to be, 1. Public Justice; 2. Public Faith; 3. Public Credit; 4. Public Opinion.

With respect to the first class, there can be no difficulty. Justice is in their favor, for they have advanced the value which they claim; public faith is in their favor, for the written promise is in their hands; respect for public credit is in their favor, for if claims so sacred are violated, all confidence must be at an end; public opinion is in their favor, for every honest citizen cannot but be their advocate.

With respect to the last class, the intermediate holders, their pretensions, if they have any, will lead us into a labyrinth, for which it is impossible to find a clew. This will be the less complained of, because this class were perfectly free, both in becoming and ceasing to be creditors; and because, in general, they must have gained by their speculations.

The only rival pretensions, then, are those of the original creditors, who have assigned, and of the present holders of the assignments.

The former may appeal to justice, because the value of the money, the service, or the property advanced by them, has never been really paid to them.

They may appeal to good faith, because the value stipulated and expected, is not satisfied by the steps taken by the Government. The certificates put into the hands of the creditors, on closing their settlements with the public, were of less real value than was acknowledged to be due; they may be considered as having been forced, in fact, on the receivers. They cannot, therefore, be fairly adjudged an extinguishment of the debt. They may appeal to the motives for establishing public credit, for which justice and faith form the natural foundation. They may appeal to the precedent furnished by the compensation allowed to the army during the late war, for the depreciation of bills, which nominally discharged the debts. They may appeal to humanity, for the sufferings of the military part of the creditors can never be forgotten, while sympathy is an American virtue. To say nothing of the singular hardship, in so many months, of requiring those who have lost four-fifths, or seven-eighths of their due, to contribute the remainder in favor of those who have gained in the contrary proportion.

On the other hand, the holders by assignment have claims, which I by no means wish to depreciate. They will say, that whatever pretensions others may have against the public, these cannot affect the validity of theirs. That if they gain by the risk taken upon themselves, it is but the just reward of that risk. That as they hold the public promise, they have an undeniable demand on the public faith. That the best foundation of public credit is that adherence to literal engagements on which it has been erected by the most flourishing nations. That if the new Government should swerve from so essential a principle, it will be regarded by all the world as inheriting the infirmities of the old. Such being the interfering claims on the public, one of three things must be done; either pay both, reject wholly one or the other, or make a _composition_ between them on some principle of equity. To pay both is perhaps beyond the public ability; and as it would far exceed the value received by the public, it will not be expected by the world, nor even by the creditors themselves. To reject wholly the claims of either is equally inadmissible; such a sacrifice of those who possess the written engagements would be fatal to the proposed establishment of public credit; it would moreover punish those who had put their trust in the public promises and resources. To make the other class the sole victims is an idea at which human nature recoils.

A composition, then, is the only expedient that remains; let it be a liberal one in favor of the present holders, let them have the highest price which has prevailed in the market; and let the residue belong to the original sufferers. This will not do perfect justice; but it will do more real justice, and perform more of the public faith, than any other expedient proposed. The present holders, where they have purchased at the lowest price of the securities, will have a profit that cannot reasonably be complained of; where they have purchased at a higher price, the profit will be considerable; and even the few who have purchased at the highest price cannot well be losers, with a well funded interest of six per cent. The original sufferers will not be fully indemnified; but they will receive, from their country, a tribute due to their merits, which, if it does not entirely heal their wounds, will assuage the pain of them. I am aware, that many plausible objections will lie against what I have suggested, some of which I foresee and will take some notice of. It will be said, that the plan is impracticable; should this be demonstrated, I am ready to renounce it; but it does not appear to me in that light. I acknowledge that such a scale as has often been a subject of conversation, is impracticable.

The discrimination proposed by me, requires nothing more than a knowledge of the present holders, which will be shown by the certificates; and of the original holders, which the office documents will show. It may be objected, that if the Government is to go beyond the literal, into the equitable claims against the United States, it ought to go back to every case where injustice has been done. To this the answer is obvious: the case in question is not only different from others in point of magnitude and of practicability, but forces itself on the attention of the committee, as necessarily involved in the business before them. It may be objected, that public credit will suffer, especially abroad; I think this danger will be effectually obviated by the honesty and disinterestedness of the Government displayed in the measure, by a continuance of the punctual discharge of foreign interest, by the full provision to be made for the whole foreign debt, and the equal punctuality I hope to see in the future payments on the domestic debts. I trust also, that all future loans will be founded on a previous establishment of adequate funds; and that a situation, like the present, will be thereby rendered impossible.

I cannot but regard the present case as so extraordinary, in many respects, that the ordinary maxims are not strictly applicable to it. The fluctuations of stock in Europe, so often referred to, have no comparison with those in the United States. The former never exceeded 50, 60, or 70 per cent.: can it be said, that because a Government thought this evil insufficient to justify an interference, it would view in the same light a fluctuation amounting to seven or eight hundred per cent.

I am of opinion, that were Great Britain, Holland, or any other country, to fund its debts precisely in the same situation as the American debt, some equitable interference of the Government would take place. The South Sea scheme, in which a change, amounting to one thousand per cent. happened in the value of stock, is well known to have produced an interference, and without any injury whatever to the subsequent credit of the nation. It is true, that in many respects, the case differed from that of the United States; but, in other respects, there is a degree of similitude, which warrants the conjecture. It may be objected, that such a provision as I propose will exceed the public ability; I do not think the public unable to discharge honorably all its engagements, or that it will be unwilling, if the appropriations shall be satisfactory. I regret, as much as any member, the unavoidable weight and duration of the burthens to be imposed; having never been a proselyte to the doctrine, that public debts are public benefits. I consider them, on the contrary, as evils which ought to be removed as fast as honor and justice will permit, and shall heartily join in the means necessary for that purpose. I conclude with declaring, as my opinion, that if any case were to happen among individuals, bearing an analogy to that of the public, a Court of Equity would interpose for its redress; or that if a tribunal existed on earth, by which nations could be compelled to do right, the United States would be compelled to do something not dissimilar in its principles to what I have contended for.

Mr. LIVERMORE wished the amendment he had formerly mentioned might be made to the original proposition; it was, to insert, before the word "interest," the words, "at a certain rate o."

Mr. SHERMAN apprehended it would strongly imply that Congress meant to reduce the rate of interest, and he did not wish that question involved with the present.

Mr. LIVERMORE's motion being seconded, the question was put thereon, and it being lost,

Mr. MADISON moved to amend the original proposition, so as to read as follows:

_Resolved_, That adequate funds ought to be provided for
paying the interest and principal of the domestic debt, as
the same shall be liquidated; and that in such liquidation,
the present holders of public securities, which have been
alienated, shall be settled with according to the highest
market rate of such securities; and that the balance of the
sums due from the public, be paid in such proportion to the
original holder of such securities.

Mr. BOUDINOT said, he had long been in the habit of paying great respect to the sentiments of the gentleman from Virginia; but he feared, on this occasion, he had not viewed the subject with his usual accuracy. He was not surprised that the gentleman was led away by the dictates of his heart, for he believed he really felt for the misfortunes of his fellow-citizens, who had been the prey of avaricious men. Indeed, it is matter of less surprise, on another account, for heretofore I contemplated the subject in nearly the same point of view. Influenced by a desire to do justice to every person connected with the public, I wished for the means of compensating the original holders, who had sold their certificates at a great loss; but I found the thing, upon long and careful examination, to be both unjust and impracticable.

The honorable gentleman tells us, that the debt was contracted for meritorious services, and inquires whether the creditor received an adequate compensation in full discharge? I say, sir, this debt is still due, and that the person to whom it is due, has received nothing but a certificate as evidence of his claim; but then, if any of our first creditors have put another person in their shoes, the question will arise, are we to disown the act of the party himself? Are we to say, we will not be bound by your transfer, we will not treat with your representative, but insist upon a resettlement with you alone? But the same reasoning will oblige us to go further, and investigate all the claims of those who have received of the Government Continental money, which they afterwards parted with for ten, forty, or one hundred for one.

FRIDAY, February 12.

_Abolition of Slavery._

The following memorial of the Pennsylvania Society for promoting the Abolition of Slavery, the relief of free negroes unlawfully held in bondage, and the improvement of the condition of the African race, was presented and read:

The memorial respectfully showeth,

That from a regard for the happiness of mankind, an
association was formed several years since in this State,
by a number of her citizens, of various religious
denominations, for promoting the abolition of slavery, and
for the relief of those unlawfully held in bondage. A just
and acute conception of the true principles of liberty, as
it spread through the land, produced accessions to their
numbers, many friends to their cause, and a Legislative
co-operation with their views, which, by the blessing of
Divine Providence, have been successfully directed to the
relieving from bondage a large number of their
fellow-creatures of the African race. They have also the
satisfaction to observe, that in consequence of that spirit
of philanthropy and genuine liberty which is generally
diffusing its beneficial influence, similar institutions
are forming at home and abroad.

That mankind are all formed by the same Almighty Being,
alike objects of his care, and equally designed for the
enjoyment of happiness, the Christian religion teaches us
to believe, and the political creed of Americans fully
coincides with the position. Your memorialists,
particularly engaged in attending to the distresses arising
from slavery, believe it their indispensable duty to
present this subject to your notice. They have observed,
with real satisfaction, that many important and salutary
powers are vested in you for "promoting the welfare and
securing the blessings of liberty to the people of the
United States;" and as they conceive that these blessings
ought rightfully to be administered, without distinction of
color, to all descriptions of people, so they indulge
themselves in the pleasing expectation, that nothing which
can be done for the relief of the unhappy objects of their
care will be either omitted or delayed.

From a persuasion that equal liberty was originally the
portion, and is still the birthright of all men; and
influenced by the strong ties of humanity, and the
principles of their institution, your memorialists conceive
themselves bound to use all justifiable endeavors to loosen
the bands of slavery, and promote a general enjoyment of
the blessings of freedom. Under these impressions, they
earnestly entreat your serious attention to the subject of
slavery; that you will be pleased to countenance the
restoration of liberty to those unhappy men, who alone, in
this land of freedom, are degraded into perpetual bondage,
and who, amidst the general joy of surrounding freemen, are
groaning in servile subjection; that you will devise means
for removing this inconsistency from the character of the
American people; that you will promote mercy and justice
towards this distressed race, and that you will step to the
very verge of the power vested in you for discouraging
every species of traffic in the persons of our fellow-men.

BENJ. FRANKLIN, _President_.

PHILADELPHIA, _February_ 3, 1790.

Mr. HARTLEY then called up the memorial presented yesterday, from the annual meeting of Friends at Philadelphia, for a second reading; whereupon the same was read a second time, and moved to be committed.