Chapter XV: Introduction (14)

Mr. STONE thought the House ought not to assist in elevating one branch of the Government more above the other than the constitution had done. This had given influence to the Senate by a negative in the cases of treaties and appointments. It had given importance to the House, by vesting them with the sole power of originating money bills. But both these powers could be exercised without a discrimination being made in the pay of the members; therefore he inferred that it was not contemplated by the constitution to make any such distinction.

A discrimination may eventually operate to the public injury; the House of Representatives may be desirous of terminating the session, but the Senate, finding the compensation they receive quite agreeable, may be inclined to protract it. He thought the true way of deciding on this subject, was to make the same allowance to both, and let it be such as not to induce them to protract the session on the one hand, or have a tendency to hurry over the business on the other.

Mr. JACKSON said, in reply to the inquiry of Mr. SEDGWICK--"Why have we made a difference between the President and the Vice President?" that the whole of the President's time would be taken up in the duties of his station; that the Vice President might retire to his farm whenever he thought proper. We refer, said he, to the wisdom of the Senate; but how is this superior wisdom to be discerned? If on this account a distinction is to be made, it necessarily follows that a difference should be made between the members of this House, and those of the Senate. We cannot be too cautious how we establish an undue pre-eminence, and give an influence and importance to one branch of the Legislature over the other. All governments incline to despotism, as naturally as rivers run into the sea. Despotism makes its way gradually, by slow and imperceptible steps; despotic power is never established all at once; we shall, ere we are aware, get beyond the gulf, and then we shall be astonished how we reached there. The services of the Senate are not more arduous than ours; their proper business is legislation, and I will never consent to any discrimination. If I imagined the question would be determined in favor of discrimination, I would call the yeas and nays, and should it be determined in favor of it, I will still call them on purpose that my constituents may see that I have voted against a measure which I look upon as injurious to the Government.

Mr. PAGE.--If he thought the discrimination proposed would have the tendency which some gentlemen apprehended, he would be the last man on the floor to support it. He would be as careful as any man how he extended the influence of any part of the Government, or gave it the least inclination towards aristocracy. But he apprehended gentlemen were deceived in their principle--he did not believe the doctrine that money confers importance, and he wished to evince to the world, that money, under this Government would have no such effect. The Senate having more duties to perform, may require a larger pecuniary gratification; but this will not add to their importance. It will require something of this kind to stimulate gentlemen to undertake the service; for his part, he might consent to come here for two years, in order to assist in public business, but no inducement, hardly, could engage him to undertake it for six years. On this consideration, he thought the Senate ought to have annual salaries, and to such an amount as would render their situation independent and eligible.

If gentlemen are afraid of an aristocracy, they ought to be careful not to make the compensation too low, so as to exclude men of middling fortunes; the men of rank and distinguished opulence might serve without any pecuniary compensation; but the Government would not be safe, if it was exclusively in such hands. He wished to discriminate in favor of the Senate, but he would rather increase their pay to eight dollars, than reduce that of the members of this House, while he considered it but a moderate compensation.

The question on Mr. SEDGWICK'S motion was taken, and lost by a considerable majority.

The House having now gone through the report, it was _Ordered_, that a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant thereto, and that Messrs. BURKE, STONE, and MOORE, be a committee to prepare and bring in the same: with instructions to insert a clause or clauses, making provision for a reasonable compensation to the Secretary of the Senate, and Clerk of the House of Representatives, respectively, for their services.

After which the House adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, July 22.

_Western Lands._

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair; and, after some time spent therein, the committee rose and reported that they had had the state of the Union under consideration, and come to a resolution thereupon, which was read and then delivered in at the clerk's table, where the same was twice read, and agreed to by the House, as follows:

_Resolved_, That an act of Congress ought to pass for
establishing a Land Office, and for regulating the terms
and manner of granting vacant and unappropriated lands, the
property of the United States; that the said office be
under the superintendence of the Governor of the Western
Territory; that the land to be disposed of be confined to
the following limits, viz:

That the tracts or parcels to be disposed of to any one
person, shall not exceed ---- acres; that the price to be
required for the same shall be ---- per acre; and that
every person actually settled within the said limits shall
be entitled to the pre-emption of a quantity not exceeding
---- acres, including his settlement.

_Ordered_, That a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant to the said resolution, and that Mr. SCOTT, Mr. SYLVESTER, and Mr. MOORE, do prepare and bring in the same.

THURSDAY, July 23.

_Home Department._

On motion of Mr. VINING, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair.

Mr. VINING introduced a resolution for the adoption of the committee, by which it is declared: That an Executive department ought to be established, and to be denominated the Home Department; the head of which to be called the Secretary of the United States for the Home Department; whose duty it shall be to correspond with the several States, and to see to the execution of the laws of the Union; to keep the great seal, and affix the same to all public papers when necessary; to keep the lesser seal, and to affix it to commissions, &c.; to make out commissions, and enregister the same; to keep authentic copies of all public acts, &c., and transmit the same to the several States; to procure the acts of the several States, and report on the same when contrary to the laws of the United States; to take into his custody the archives of the late Congress; to report to the President plans for the protection and improvement of manufactures, agriculture, and commerce; to obtain a geographical account of the several States, their rivers, towns, roads, &c.; to report what post-roads shall be established; to receive and record the census; to receive reports respecting the Western Territory; to receive the models and specimens presented by inventors and authors; to enter all books for which patents are granted; to issue patents, &c.; and, in general, to do and attend to all such matters and things as he may be directed to do by the President.

Mr. BENSON objected to some of the duties mentioned in the resolution. He thought the less the Government corresponded with particular States the better, and there could be no necessity for an officer to see to the execution of the laws of the United States, when there was a Judiciary instituted with adequate powers.

Mr. WHITE was not convinced that there was a necessity for establishing a separate department for all or any of the duties contained in the resolution. The correspondence with the States belonged to the Executive. To see to the execution of the laws was the duty of the Judiciary. The great seal might be kept by the Secretary of Foreign Affairs; the lesser seal might be deposited in the same hands. Commissions might be made out by the departments to which the officer is connected. The Secretary of the Senate and Clerk of the House might transmit the public acts, and keep records thereof. What have Congress to do with the acts of States? If they interfere with the constitutional powers of the Government, the Judges will prevent their operation. The papers of the late Congress may be distributed among the officers to which they relate; the rest may be deposited with the officers of Congress. The want of the reports on manufactures, agriculture, and commerce, may be supplied by Congress. The post-roads may be left to the Postmaster General. The census must be returned to Congress, and they will preserve it among their files. And it can hardly be thought necessary to establish a great department for the purpose of receiving the models, specimens, and books presented by authors and inventors. If none of these things are requisite to be done by a great department, why should the United States incur the expense which such an arrangement must necessarily draw along with it.

Mr. HUNTINGTON thought the Secretary of Foreign Affairs was not so much overcharged with business but that he might attend to the major part of the duties mentioned in the resolution.

Mr. VINING said, he had waited until the great Executive departments were established; but none of those had embraced the duties contained in his proposition, which he conceived to be of great importance; many of the duties were as essential as those of any other department, except the Treasury. As for their belonging to the Executive, as was said by the gentleman from Virginia, he admitted it; but they were, nevertheless, as proper to be put into the hands of a principal officer under the President, as the War office, or office of Foreign Affairs; the duties of these were especially within the Executive department of the Government. He conceived that the President ought to be relieved from the inferior duties of his station, by officers assigned to attend to them under his inspection; he could then, with a mind free and unembarrassed with the minutiæ of business, attend to the operations of the whole machine.

If the office was admitted to be necessary, and he was certain the performance of the duties were useful and essential, the expense could be no solid objection, because the information it would furnish would more than counterbalance that article.

The question he conceived to be reduced to this, whether a confidential officer would not be more useful than any other, and whether the duties could be distributed among the officers already instituted. For his part, he conceived most of them foreign to either of those officers; and that they could not be performed with advantage any other way than by an officer appointed specially for the purpose. He thought every gentleman would admit that the duties were important, and he assured them that his only reason for bringing the motion forward was, to provide for the public good. He had no personal motives in pressing it; he disclaimed every idea of serving any particular man by the arrangement, and rested it solely upon its merits.

Mr. SEDGWICK believed the honorable gentleman in his assertions, that he had no personal motive in pressing this business. He believed that he thought it essential, and if his sentiments were the same, he would join the gentleman in supporting the motion; but after duly considering the subject, he was inclined to believe that the office was unnecessary, and that it would be squandering the public money, at a time when the greatest economy is requisite. He thought the principal part of the duties might be assigned to the Secretary of Foreign Affairs; and he would, if the committee negatived the present motion, introduce another for that purpose.

Mr. GERRY thought the burthens of the people would be sufficiently great in providing the supplies absolutely necessary for the support of the Government; therefore it would be improper to add expenses which might possibly be avoided. The people are viewing the proceedings of Congress with an attentive solicitude, and if they observe that we erect offices for which there is no apparent necessity, they will be apt to think we are providing sinecures for men whom we favor; they will reluctantly pay what is extracted from their earnings to a Government which they think is regardless of economy. They will suspect a further view in the change of Government. They will suppose that we contemplate the establishment of a monarchy, by raising round the Executive a phalanx of such men as must be inclined to favor those of whom they hold their places.

Mr. VINING.--Why do gentlemen say that such an office is unnecessary, when they are forced to admit that all the duties are essential? Or how can they say it is more expensive to establish it in this way than in another? Suppose these duties distributed in the manner which some gentlemen have mentioned, is it not fairly to be presumed that the departments to which any of them are attached, will require an extra pay for these extra services? If so, will there be any economy in this mode of procedure? All that is to be wished for, is to have a confidential person employed, let his salary be what you please: if it is not worth fifteen hundred dollars per annum, let it be five hundred. But it would be better to have a principal to manage the business than to have it consigned to clerks in the other departments.

Mr. LAWRENCE said that something was necessary to be done with respect to the business brought forward by the honorable gentleman from Delaware. He conceived that an officer of the rolls, or some inferior officer, ought to be appointed to transact the business detailed in the resolution; he did not insist upon making a great department.

Mr. SEDGWICK agreed with the gentleman from New York; but, he thought, the business might be thrown into some other department, and save to the Union the expense of the one which the gentleman from Delaware wished to establish, by the name of the Home Department. He thought the resolution proposed altogether so improper, that he hoped the committee would rise.

A desultory conversation arose, whether the committee should decide upon the resolution or not; after which a question was taken on the rising of the committee, and decided in the negative.

Then the question was put on the first part of Mr. VINING'S proposition, viz: "That an Executive Department ought to be established, to be denominated the Home Department;" and lost by a considerable majority.

FRIDAY, July 24.

_Committee of Ways and Means._

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--The finances of America have frequently been mentioned in this House as being very inadequate to the demands. I have ever been of a different opinion, and do believe that the funds of this country, if properly drawn into operation, will be equal to every claim. The estimate of supplies necessary for the current year appears very great from a report on your table, and which report has found its way into the public newspapers. I said on a former occasion, and I repeat it now, notwithstanding what is set forth in the estimate, that a revenue of three millions of dollars in specie, will enable us to provide every supply necessary to support the Government, and pay the interest and instalments on the foreign and domestic debt. If we wish to have more particular information on these points, we ought to appoint a Committee of Ways and Means, to whom, among other things, the estimate of supplies may be referred, and this ought to be done speedily, if we mean to do it this session.

Mr. GERRY said, the estimate reported by a committee was as accurate as possible. From this it appeared, that eight millions of dollars would be necessary for the support of Government, for the interest and instalments becoming due, and for the arrearages already due. He remarked, that we had been already dunned on this subject by foreigners, and that Congress would have to make provision for their payment. If three millions of dollars were employed to this use, it would only be carrying the arrearages into another year; but, as they must be paid at last, he recommended making an immediate exertion as a better way of giving satisfaction than procrastination would be. He thought it best to lay the real situation of this country before the House, and not endeavor to make things appear better than they really are.

With respect to the publication of the estimate in the papers, he knew nothing about it; he admitted that it was such a one as ought not to be published by order of Congress. He approved of the idea of appointing a Committee of Ways and Means, if it were only to ascertain what part of the interest on the debt should be paid, and what of the principal extinguished within the current year, from the funds already provided.

FRIDAY, July 31.

Mr. SCOTT, from the committee appointed for the purpose, brought in a bill for establishing a Land Office for the Western Territory, which was read and laid on the table.

On motion,

_Resolved_, That a standing committee be appointed to
examine the enrolled bills, and to present the same to the
President for his approbation and signature.

Messrs. WHITE and PARTRIDGE were accordingly appointed.

Mr. WHITE, of the committee appointed to examine into the measures taken by Congress and the State of Virginia, respecting the lands reserved for the use of the officers and soldiers of said State, &c., brought in a report, which was read and laid on the table.

The House then resumed the consideration of the amendments agreed upon in Committee of the Whole, to the bill for registering and clearing vessels; which being finished, the bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading on Monday next.

A message from the Senate informed the House that they had passed the bill for establishing the Treasury Department, with amendments; to which they desired the concurrence of the House.

Mr. SEDGWICK, from the committee appointed for the purpose, brought in a bill to provide for the safe keeping of the acts, records, and great seal of the United States, for the publication, preservation, and authentication of the acts of Congress, &c.; which was read and laid on the table.

MONDAY, August 3.

A message from the Senate informed the House that they had passed the bill for the establishment of light-houses, beacons, and buoys, with several amendments; to which they desired the concurrence of this House.

The amendments of the Senate were immediately considered and agreed to.

The engrossed bill for regulating the coasting trade was read a third time; and, on motion, recommitted to a Committee of the Whole, to be taken up to-morrow.

The bill for establishing a Land Office for the Western Territory was read a second time, and made the order of the day for Thursday.

The bill to provide for the safe keeping of the acts, records, great seal, &c., was read, and made the order of the day for Friday.

The report of the committee on amendments to the constitution was, on motion of Mr. MADISON, made the order of the day for Wednesday sennight.

Mr. BENSON made a motion as follows:

_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed to join with a
committee of the Senate to be appointed for the purpose, to
consider of and report when it will be convenient and
proper that an adjournment of the present session of
Congress should take place; and to consider and report such
business now before Congress, necessary to be finished
before the adjournment, and such as may be conveniently
postponed to the next session; and also to consider and
report such matters not now before Congress, but which it
will be necessary should be considered and determined by
Congress before an adjournment.

TUESDAY, August 4.

_Compensation of Members._

Mr. BURKE, from the committee appointed for the purpose, brought in a bill for allowing a compensation to the members of both Houses, and to their respective officers; this bill provides that the compensation shall be as follows, viz:

To each member of the Senate and House, six dollars per day.

The Speaker of the House, twelve dollars per day.

To the Secretary of the Senate, and Clerk of the House, each fifteen hundred dollars a year, and two dollars a day each during the session of the Legislature; one principal clerk to each, at three dollars a day during the session; one engrossing clerk to each, at two dollars a day during the session.

Serjeant-at-arms, three dollars a day during the session.

Doorkeeper to the House and Senate, each seven hundred and thirty dollars a year.

Assistant doorkeepers, during the session, one dollar and fifty cents a day each. This bill was laid on the table.

WEDNESDAY, August 5.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for allowing compensation to the members of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, and to the officers of both Houses, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair.

Mr. GOODHUE moved to strike out six dollars, as the pay of each member per diem.

Mr. CARROLL inquired, if it was not out of order for the committee to alter principles, after they had been settled by the House.

Mr. PAGE wanted to know whether the gentleman meant to increase or diminish the sum, for he presumed it was not intended to be left a blank altogether; but he hoped the House would do neither. It had been settled, after mature deliberation, at six dollars; the House certainly thought that sum enough, and if it was more, that it would be too much; he was satisfied with this determination, and would adhere to it. Perhaps the gentleman meant to strike out the six dollars, in order to make a discrimination between the members of this House and the Senate; if so, he had better move to increase the compensation of the Senators, and here he would second him, because he thought their services required more.

He would once more mention his fears relative to a small sum. He dreaded the abuse of economy, and was suspicious that a parsimonious provision would throw the Government into the hands of bad men, by which the people might lose every thing they now held dear. He thought few would serve for a smaller sum than he would, and he was confident the allowance was as moderate as any man could expect. Gentlemen who come a great distance are put to considerable expense, and their domestic arrangements destroyed: instead of laying up money by their attendance here, it was almost certain they would spend part of their private estates.

If it is meant that the republic should be provided with good and wholesome laws, a proper provision should be made to bring into the councils of the Union such men as are qualified to secure them well; it is not to be expected that the spirit of patriotism will lead a man into the perpetual habit of making such exertions and sacrifices as are too often necessary in the hour of danger. No man ought to be called into the services of his country, and receive less than will defray the expenses he incurs by performing his duty. If he does, the public affairs, in the time of tranquillity, will get exclusively into the hands of nabobs and aspiring men, who will lay the foundation of aristocracy, and reduce their equals to the capacity of menial servants or slaves.

Mr. SEDGWICK seconded the motion for striking out. He had endeavored to view this subject impartially, uninfluenced by any local considerations or circumstances; and under these impressions, he was led to believe, from all the information he had received, whether from abroad, or from an examination in his own mind, of the effects it would produce, that it would be expedient to establish the compensation at a lower sum. He really did not see any solid ground for the apprehensions which his worthy friend from Virginia (Mr. PAGE) had discovered. He had heard it often said, that if salaries and allowances to public officers were small, you would not be able to command the services of good men; but it was contradicted by the fact. He would instance the late appointments, and ask gentlemen whether they conceived better men could have been procured, if the compensation had been doubled? If it was fair to reason by experience and analogy, he should conclude there would be no difficulty in procuring good and respectable men, to serve in this House, at a less rate than six dollars per day. He had never yet observed that men of small property shrunk from the expense of serving in the councils of their country.

He thought the practice of the States was opposed to so high a compensation; many of the State Legislatures allowed their members a dollar and ten shillings a day, and yet they were served by good men.

He had been informed that it was thought by men of sense and intelligence, that although six dollars might not be too great an allowance for the services of the members of this House, yet, considering the present circumstances of the people, it would be good policy to reduce the same. He inclined to this opinion himself.

Impressed with these ideas, and knowing that it was generally the opinion of the people, that six dollars was more than a moderate compensation to the members of this House, he should support the motion for striking out with a view to reduce the sum.

Mr. VINING said, the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. CARROLL) had taken the subject up in a proper point of view, by inquiring into the point of order. He begged gentlemen to consider the manner in which the subject had been discussed already--twice in the House, and twice in committee; every decision had been the same; why should the point so often determined be again agitated? It is contrary to all parliamentary proceeding, and the House will never know when principles are settled.

He was certain that six dollars was but a moderate compensation, if a member is to reside at the metropolis of the United States. He would admit that they could live for less, in some more central part of the country; but the gentlemen from the eastward should recollect that a small allowance would be an argument for removing Congress from this city, and when that time arrived, he should consent to a lower sum, but not till then.

Mr. FITZSIMONS did not expect to hear the subject discussed again; he thought it unnecessary, because he believed every gentleman would decide more upon his own feelings than upon the arguments that could be adduced; he would, however, just remind the committee, that six dollars was about the average of what the members from the several States had under the late confederation.

Mr. SEDGWICK.--According to the observation made by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, it will be deemed insolent to reason on this subject: what I offered before, I brought forward with candor; but shall we be precluded from debate, because a subject has been once discussed? Sir, when I moved, some days ago, to reduce the pay of the members to five dollars, I was rather indifferent about it; but since then, I have been so well convinced of the necessity there is for such a measure, that I cannot decline pressing it once more upon the committee.

Mr. STONE thought the public mind would not be much influenced by the trifling difference between five and six dollars. They pay greater regard to the decisions of the House, on more important subjects. The gentleman from Massachusetts says his correspondents inform him, that the public mind is agitated on this subject; if we are to judge what is the state of the public mind from what our friends say, I should be apt to think the public mind quite unconcerned on the present question; for among all my correspondents, not one has deigned to notice it.

The question was now taken on striking out, and there appeared sixteen in favor of it, and thirty-five against it; so the motion passed in the negative.

Mr. MADISON renewed the motion for making a difference in the pay of the members of the Senate and the House of Representatives, which was also lost.

Mr. GOODHUE moved to strike out twelve dollars, the pay assigned the Speaker, and insert ten.

Mr. PAGE hoped his motion would share the fate of the two last; he was certain that twelve dollars was not more than a compensation for the Speaker's services; three times the sum would not induce him to accept such a situation.

Mr. BURKE was against the motion, because he thought that twelve dollars was not a reward for the Speaker's labor. The Speaker of the House of Commons in England has an annual salary of £8000 sterling.

Mr. CARROLL thought the Chair of the House of Representatives was one of the most important and dignified offices under the Government, and as such ought to be provided for.

This motion was lost by a great majority.

The committee rose and reported progress.

THURSDAY, August 6.

_Compensation of Members._

The House then again went into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for allowing a compensation to the members of Congress; and after some time spent therein, the committee rose and reported the bill as amended: then the House proceeded to consider the same.

Mr. THATCHER moved to insert five dollars instead of six, as the pay of the members.

Mr. PARTRIDGE observed, that money was more valuable now than it had been some years past; if, therefore, six dollars was the average of what the delegates received heretofore, five dollars was now equal to that sum. In short, he was convinced that six dollars was too much, and in justice to his constituents, and his own conscience, he would vote against it, and perpetuate his vote by calling the yeas and nays upon the question.

Mr. GERRY.--I was not present when this subject was last before the House, therefore I cannot say what was understood on this point; but I have seen some account of the debate in the papers, from which I am led to believe, that gentlemen view this matter in a very narrow point of light. It appears to me a question, in which one's popularity is more concerned than any thing else. Gentlemen perhaps suppose that by voting for five instead of six dollars, they will establish such a character for economy and patriotism as will redound to their honor; but I can easily conceive, that men of knowledge and sentiment, yes, our constituents in general, will discover, in a glaring light, the ruinous consequences of such a measure in a very short period. The difference of pay, as it now stands in the bill, and what my colleague has moved for, is one dollar a day, and on this important question the yeas and nays are to be called. For my part, I shall deliver my sentiments freely; I am willing to leave the question to the people to decide; I care not about the pay, and I can assure them I never wish to have a seat in this House again: but I wish to guard against the subversion of the public liberty--against the introduction of pensions--against exposing the Legislature to corruption.

I would have gentlemen consider the principles upon which they are to pay the President, their Judges and themselves; the constitution says, the members of this House and the Senate shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. The President shall receive, at stated times, a compensation for his services, neither to be increased nor diminished; the Judges shall, at stated times, receive for their services a compensation, not to be diminished during their continuance in office; hence it appears that the provision for the three branches is to be made on the same principle, namely a compensation for their services. Now, though it is certainly a little embarrassing that we should have to estimate the value of our own services, yet we are bound to do it, and that upon a fixed principle. It has been said, that the Parliament of Britain receive no pay. This may be the case, but if they examine back, they will find that pay, of a mark per day, was regularly established for them. If we consider the difference of the value of money two or three centuries ago, we shall find this no inconsiderable allowance. But the policy of the British ministry has been, of late, to extend the influence of the Crown; the pay of members has dropped into disuse; but every one knows by what means a majority in Parliament is obtained and secured. Now, such is the extent of these means, that I venture to say, two important members of the House of Commons receive more per annum than the whole compensation given to the members of both Houses of Congress. I leave it to the world to judge, whether the people are likely to be better served by men who receive their wages of the Monarch, and who own themselves the servants of the Crown, or by those who are immediately paid by and dependent upon themselves. While Britain had funds enough to support this plan, they did tolerably well; but when the evil extended itself, and they feared they could no longer continue it without having recourse to other means, they bethought themselves of unconstitutional ones; they were desirous of obtaining a revenue out of this country, and placing upon our establishment men whom they could not provide for at home. This cause lost them America, and this cause will lose them every dependency, where they attempt to play the like game.

From this view, the importance of an independent Legislature may be seen. Will gentlemen then say, that to gratify a thoughtless regard for economy, they will risk the most invaluable part of the Government? If gentlemen say it is justice to their constituents, I am willing to appeal to their tribunal; let them know the reason upon which we act, and I will abide by their determination; but I am against being influenced by an apprehension that the people will disapprove our conduct. I am not afraid of being left out, even if it were thought a disgrace to be left out. I would risk that disgrace rather than agree to an establishment which I am convinced would end in the ruin of the liberties of my fellow-citizens. It would give my heart more satisfaction to fall the victim of popular resentment, than to establish my popularity at the expense of their dearest interest.

As I mentioned before, the principle upon which we fix our own pay must go through the other branches of the Government. Your President ought to be retrenched to 16 or 18,000 dollars; your judges must be kept poor; and I leave gentlemen to consider the happy consequences arising from a dependent and corrupt Judiciary. Your Legislature may be corrupt, and your Executive aspiring; but a firm, independent Judiciary will stop the course of devastation, at least it will shield individuals from rapine and injustice; but remove this security, and tyranny and oppression will rush forward as a flood, and overwhelm the country.

It has been said, that the proposed compensation bears no proportion to the pay of the members of the State Legislatures; let me ask, do members of the State Legislatures forego their business? Do they leave their State and relinquish their occupations? Does the lawyer neglect his client? Does the merchant forego his commerce, or the farmer his agriculture? No, sir, the short period they are in session, and the opportunity of being in the vicinity affords them of going home, even during their sitting, enables them to pursue their other avocations, while performing their duties in the Legislature. But are not gentlemen who come from the most distant parts of the Union, compelled to relinquish every thing to attend here? The representation from the States is so small, that a member can be ill spared at any time; his absence must give him pain, when even that absence is necessary, but cannot be often allowed. In short, I would have the allowance such, as to secure the services of men of abilities in every rank of life; or if that cannot be obtained, I would have all that part of the bill struck out, which relates to a compensation for the services of the members of this House.

Mr. PAGE said, if gentlemen were satisfied that five dollars per day was enough to compensate them and defray their expenses, because they resided in a part of the Union where every thing was to be procured so much cheaper, they might receive that sum and leave the residue in the Treasury; by this means they would demonstrate their love of economy and disinterestedness.

Mr. VINING thought gentlemen who were satisfied with four or five dollars, might move to amend the clause, so as to make it read "not exceeding six dollars per day," and then they might charge as much less as they deemed prudent.

Mr. BOUDINOT said, that whatever measures he supported, he did it upon principle, not from a desire of acquiring popularity; he was satisfied that six dollars per day was not extravagant compensation, but considering the situation of the country, and the delicacy of their own situation, he would vote for five dollars, and he thought it sufficient to secure men of ability. He asked the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. GERRY) if he expected the paltry consideration of getting a dollar a day more, was to induce men of abilities and integrity to come forward and render their country their services?

He admitted that many gentlemen would find it difficult to bear all their expenses with five dollars a day; but the compensation could not be on a principle of discrimination, and therefore the House could not make particular provision for such gentlemen. Others might think a less sum sufficient, but no discrimination could here take place; it was therefore necessary to accommodate, and upon this principle he hoped the House would agree to five dollars per day; nor would this be any variation from the principle established by the committee who reported the bill. They had taken the pay of the delegates to the late Congress, and struck an average, which was found to be about five dollars and a half; they had reported six, but from the principles he had before mentioned, he thought it better to agree to five.

Mr. GERRY.--The gentleman from Jersey, who was last up, says he does not think six dollars per day more than sufficient; but that he will, from a principle of delicacy, vote for five. I am as great a friend to delicacy as any man, but I would not sacrifice essentials to a false delicacy. It seems, from such sentiments, as if we were afraid to administer a constitution which we are bound to administer. How are those sentiments reconcilable to the oath we have taken? The constitution requires that we shall, by law, compensate the services of the members of both Houses.

It has been said, that money is now more valuable than it was a few years since. I admit the fact, sir, but four dollars per day was better under the old plan of Government than six or eight under this, because a delegate was then engaged for the whole year, but now he is to attend at intervals. Some members were continued several years successively, and consequently found it more advantageous. But this mode of reasoning is fallacious; the question ought to be determined upon its own merits. But if gentlemen are for sacrificing justice and propriety to delicacy, or any other motive, let them come forward and agree to what I mentioned before; let them strike out all that relates to their own compensation; they are called upon by their own arguments to do this.

Mr. SEDGWICK did not rise to speak to the question, but merely to reply to some observations that have fallen from the gentlemen who opposed the present motion, particularly his colleague. The want of candor and liberality might render gentlemen unpleasant in their situation; but the consequences arising from such causes, were often still more unpleasant. His colleague had insinuated, in a pointed manner, that the gentlemen who were in favor of a reduction, were actuated by motives not only improper and unworthy of a man of character, but such as appeared base to his mind. It was said, that those who proposed this reduction, did it merely to court popularity. Whether the gentleman, his colleague, who brought forward the motion to-day, sacrificed more at that shrine than his colleague who had opposed it, he left to those to determine who noticed their conduct; but he believed they could never be charged with such meanness. For his own part, if he had sacrificed in this way, as his conduct had always been consistent with his sentiments, it must have been known, and his character would long ere this have been blasted in the manner it would have justly deserved. If he had done it heretofore, he hoped the stigma would not be affixed upon him, for a conduct founded upon the solid and substantial reasons he had advanced when the subject was last before the House.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--The gentleman from Massachusetts makes me say, that six dollars a day is not too much. I said it was not extravagant, but more than I thought was proper upon due consideration of the circumstances of this country. This is still my opinion, and upon it I shall ground my vote. I believe no gentleman in this House regards his popularity, when set in competition with his duty; my conduct has ever been open, and I leave the world to judge from that what are my principles. I shall therefore take no further notice of what has been said on that subject, but conclude with wishing, for the honor of the House, and the dignity of the gentlemen, that all our debates may be conducted with candor and moderation.

Mr. AMES wished the call for the yeas and nays was withdrawn; because he thought they lost their usefulness by a too frequent use. He was in favor of the motion, but he did not wish to have his name entered on the minutes on that account.

Mr. PARTRIDGE said, it was well known he never courted popularity; he never sought a seat in this House, or any other public body; but he insisted upon his right, as a member, to call for the yeas and nays, when he thought the public interest might be benefited by it; however, as the bill was not to be finished to-day, he would waive that call.

The question was taken on Mr. GOODHUE'S motion, and passed in the negative, by a large majority.

The bill was ordered to be engrossed, and the House adjourned.

THURSDAY, August 13.

_Amendments to the Constitution._

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair, and took the amendments under consideration. The first article ran thus: "In the introductory paragraph of the constitution, before the words 'We the people,' add 'Government being intended for the benefit of the people, and the rightful establishment thereof being derived from their authority alone.'"

Mr. SHERMAN.--I believe, Mr. Chairman, this is not the proper mode of amending the constitution. We ought not to interweave our propositions into the work itself, because it will be destructive of the whole fabric. We might as well endeavor to mix brass, iron, and clay, as to incorporate such heterogeneous articles; the one contradictory to the other. Its absurdity will be discovered by comparing it with a law. Would any legislature endeavor to introduce into a former act a subsequent amendment, and let them stand so connected? When an alteration is made in an act, it is done by way of supplement; the latter act always repealing the former in every specified case of difference.

Besides this, sir, it is questionable whether we have the right to propose amendments in this way. The constitution is the act of the people, and ought to remain entire. But the amendments will be the act of the State Governments. Again, all the authority we possess is derived from that instrument; if we mean to destroy the whole, and establish a new constitution, we remove the basis on which we mean to build. For these reasons, I will move to strike out that paragraph and substitute another.

The paragraph proposed was to the following effect:

_Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States in Congress assembled_, That the following
articles he proposed as amendments to the constitution, and
when ratified by three-fourths of the State Legislatures
shall become valid to all intents and purposes, as part of
the same.

Under this title, the amendments might come in nearly as stated in the report, only varying the phraseology so as to accommodate them to a supplementary form.

Mr. MADISON.--Form, sir, is always of less importance than the substance; but on this occasion, I admit that form is of some consequence, and it will be well for the House to pursue that which, upon reflection, shall appear to be the most eligible. Now it appears to me, that there is a neatness and propriety in incorporating the amendments into the constitution itself; in that case the system will remain uniform and entire; it will certainly be more simple, when the amendments are interwoven into those parts to which they naturally belong, than it will if they consist of separate and distinct parts. We shall then be able to determine its meaning without references or comparison; whereas, if they are supplementary, its meaning can only be ascertained by a comparison of the two instruments, which will be a very considerable embarrassment. It will be difficult to ascertain to what parts of the instrument the amendments particularly refer; they will create unfavorable comparisons; whereas, if they are placed upon the footing here proposed, they will stand upon as good foundation as the original work.

Nor is it so uncommon a thing as gentlemen suppose; systematic men frequently take up the whole law, and, with its amendments and alterations, reduce it into one act. I am not, however, very solicitous about the form, provided the business is but well completed.

Mr. SMITH did not think the amendment proposed by the honorable gentleman from Connecticut was compatible with the constitution, which declared, that the amendments recommended by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of three-fourths of the several States, should be part of this constitution; in which case it would form one complete system; but according to the idea of the amendment, the instrument is to have five or six suits of improvements. Such a mode seems more calculated to embarrass the people than any thing else, while nothing in his opinion was a juster cause of complaint than the difficulties of knowing the law, arising from legislative obscurities that might easily be avoided. He said, that it had certainly been the custom in several of the State Governments, to amend their laws by way of supplement. But South Carolina had been an instance of the contrary practice, in revising the old code; instead of making acts in addition to acts, which is always attended with perplexity, she has incorporated them, and brought them forward as a complete system, repealing the old. This is what he understood was intended to be done by the committee; the present copy of the constitution was to be done away, and a new one substituted in its stead.

Mr. LIVERMORE was clearly of opinion, that whatever amendments were made to the constitution, they ought to stand separate from the original instrument. We have no right, said he, to alter a clause, any otherwise than by a new proposition. We have well-established precedents for such a mode of procedure in the practice of the British Parliament, and the State Legislatures throughout America. I do not mean, however, to assert that there has been no instance of a repeal of the whole law on enacting another; but this has generally taken place on account of the complexity of the original, with its supplements. Were we a mere legislative body, no doubt it might be warrantable in us to pursue a similar method; but it is questionable whether it is possible for us, consistent with the oath we have taken, to attempt a repeal of the constitution of the United States, by making a new one to substitute in its place; the reason of this is grounded on a very simple consideration. It is by virtue of the present constitution, I presume, that we attempt to make another; now, if we proceed to the repeal of this, I cannot see upon what authority we shall erect another; if we destroy the base, the superstructure falls of course. At some future day it may be asked upon what authority we proceeded to raise and appropriate public moneys. We suppose we do it in virtue of the present constitution; but it may be doubted whether we have a right to exercise any of its authorities while it is suspended, as it will certainly be from the time that two-thirds of both Houses have agreed to submit it to the State Legislatures; so that, unless we mean to destroy the whole constitution, we ought to be careful how we attempt to amend it in the way proposed by the committee. From hence, I presume it will be more prudent to adopt the mode proposed by the gentleman from Connecticut, than it will be to risk the destruction of the whole by proposing amendments in the manner recommended by the committee.

Mr. VINING disliked a supplementary form, and said it was a bad reason to urge the practice of former ages, when there was a more convenient method of doing the business at hand. He had seen an act entitled an act to amend a supplement to an act entitled an act for altering part of an act entitled an act for certain purposes therein mentioned. If gentlemen were disposed to run into such jargon in amending and altering the constitution, he could not help it; but he trusted they would adopt a plainness and simplicity of style on this and every other occasion, which should be easily understood. If the mode proposed by the gentleman from Connecticut was adopted, the system would be distorted, and, like a careless written letter, have more attached to it in a postscript than was contained in the original composition.

The constitution being a great and important work, ought all to be brought into one view, and made as intelligible as possible.

Mr. CLYMER was of opinion with the gentleman from Connecticut, that the amendments ought not to be incorporated in the body of the work, which he hoped would remain a monument to justify those who made it; by a comparison, the world would discover the perfection of the original, and the superfluity of the amendments. He made this distinction, because he did not conceive any of the amendments essential, but as they were solicited by his fellow-citizens, and for that reason they were acquiesced in by others; he therefore wished the motion for throwing them into a supplementary form might be carried.