Chapter XXXVII: Introduction (36)

Mr. SMITH (S. C.) had had his doubts on the report; but on more mature consideration he was convinced that on account of the inconvenience which would result from rejecting it, and from other considerations, it was proper to adopt it, but not without a full discussion. He then stated some particulars to show that the vacancy which had occurred on this occasion could not properly be called a resignation. Mr. PINKNEY had never taken his seat, nor the requisite oath. He said that there was no analogy between the Parliament of Great Britain and this House; the mode of issuing the writs originally, and of filling up vacancies, is essentially different. No part of the constitution prohibits a member from resigning, and for convenience it ought to be concluded that he may resign. The public interest may suffer extremely in cases of sickness or embarrassments, which may prevent a member from attending. This argument from the body's not existing to whom the resignation ought to be made, will apply to the President of the United States, whose resignation is expressly mentioned in the constitution. The objection urged from the Executives of the States judging of vacancies, he conceived had no great force, for Congress would finally judge in every case of election. It is uncertain how the practice of the British Parliament originated. _Blackstone_ says nothing of resignations. When a member wants to resign in that Legislature, he gets appointed to some fictitious office which disqualifies him from sitting in the House. He thought it best to establish some precedent, rather than oblige members who may wish to resign to have recourse to some familiar method, by accepting of some appointment in the State which is incompatible with a seat.

Mr. MURRAY said he was in favor of accepting the report, both on account of propriety and conveniency. Vacancies may happen from various causes--by resignation, by death, or by expulsion--the Executive of the State is the proper judge in the first case. He stated certain differences between a resignation after a person has taken his seat, and a resignation before that event. In the former case Congress will of course give notice to the Executive of the State; in the latter, the Executive alone can take cognizance of the resignation. He stated the extreme inconveniency which would result from the ideas of the gentleman from Virginia, as it would respect the State of Georgia. He then stated several particulars to show that Mr. PINKNEY was not a member of the House agreeably to the constitution, and therefore the House cannot proceed with him as one. He said that we ought to be willing to derive information from the experience of every country; but he conceived that no precedents could be drawn that would apply in the present case from a country which had none, to one which had a constitution that so clearly defined and guarded the rights of the citizens. The custom which had been mentioned as obtaining in that country, arose from a wish to prevent a frequency of elections. From what had been offered by the gentleman from South Carolina, and the ideas he had suggested, he hoped the committee would be induced to accept the report.

Mr. WILLIAMSON said, that it appeared to him that the constitution contemplates that a member may resign. He read the clause, which says that no member of the Legislature shall accept of an office made _during the time_ for which he was chosen--from hence he inferred that resignations were clearly contemplated.

Mr. GERRY said that he had heard nothing to show that Mr. PINKNEY had ever accepted of his appointment, and therefore it ought to have been expressed that he had declined; but, granting he had resigned after accepting his appointment, he asserted that nothing had been offered to prove that resignations might not take place in one House as well as in the other; and the constitution plainly expresses that a Senator may resign. The House of Commons originated with the Kings, who formed that body to control the Lords; and hence arose the prohibition against resignations, as they would weaken the body, and the expense of a new election would fall on the King. With respect to the Executive declaring improper vacancies, he observed that Congress was invested with full power to control the Executives of the States in respect to such declarations.

Mr. SENEY observed upon a distinction made by Mr. GILES between a resignation on the part of a Senator and a Member of the House, he supposed a resignation in either would equally vacate a seat, and that no difference did really exist.

Mr. SEDGWICK observed that, if a power of adjudication was vested in the Executives of the States to determine on a vacancy in cases of resignation, it would involve this consequence, that a power of judging of vacancies in all possible cases would be the necessary result. He thought the proposition involved the most serious effects with respect to the privileges and independency of this House.

This subject was further discussed the next day, and ended in an acceptation of the report of the committee, which was in favor of Mr. MERCER's election.

MONDAY, December 5.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill making appropriations for the support of Government, for the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-two; and, after some time spent therein,

_Ordered_, That the said bill, with amendments, be recommitted to Mr. LAURANCE, Mr. BALDWIN, and Mr. ASHE.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, accompanying his report on the subject of manufactures, made pursuant to an order of the House of the fifteenth of January, one thousand seven hundred and ninety; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Treasury of the United States, accompanying his account of receipts and expenditures of the public moneys between the first of July, and the thirtieth of September, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-one; which were read and ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. BENSON laid on the table a resolution for the appointment of a committee to join a committee of the Senate, to consider and report the most eligible manner of carrying into effect a former resolution of Congress respecting the erection of an Equestrian Statue, in honor of General WASHINGTON.

_Appropriation Bill._

The House then, pursuant to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, and resumed the consideration of the appropriation bill, Mr. MUHLENBERG in the chair.

In proceeding through the bill, the several items were separately considered and agreed to. Some occasional remarks were made; but no material debate took place. One amendment was proposed, by which the bill is made to express the several purposes for which the moneys are appropriated, instead of appropriating sums in gross, with a reference to the Secretary's estimate, for particulars.

The committee having reported the bill and the amendment, the House adopted the same, and recommitted the bill to the select committee, who had originally framed it, with instructions to new-model it pursuant to the sense of the House.

Mr. GERRY presented a resolution in lieu of one which he laid on the table on Friday last, making it the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury to report to the House, on the third Monday of every session, an account of the receipts and expenditures of the public money appropriated during the preceding session, so far as he shall then have it in his power to state particulars; and if he be unable to give an accurate statement of the whole, at the time appointed, he is to complete it as soon afterwards as may be.

TUESDAY, December 6.

_Resolved_, That Mr. BENSON, Mr. GERRY, and Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina,) be appointed a committee on the part of this House, jointly, with such committee as shall be appointed on the part of the Senate, to consider and report to Congress the most eligible manner for carrying into effect the resolution of the United States in Congress assembled, of the seventh of August, 1783, directing that an Equestrian Statue of General WASHINGTON should be erected.

MONDAY, December 12.

The following Message was received from the President of the United States.

_Gentlemen of the Senate, and of the House of
Representatives:_

It is with great concern that I communicate to you the
information received from Major General St. Clair, of the
misfortune which has befallen the troops under his command.

Although the national loss is considerable, according to
the scale of the event, yet it may be repaired without
great difficulty, excepting as to the brave men who have
fallen on the occasion, and who are a subject of public as
well as private regret.

A farther communication will shortly be made of all such
matters as shall be necessary to enable the Legislature to
judge of the future measures which it may be proper to
pursue.

GEORGE WASHINGTON.

UNITED STATES, _December_ 12, 1791.

FRIDAY, December 16.

_The Post Office Bill._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the bill "for establishing the Post Office and Post Roads within the United States."

[The following is a condensed view of the arguments made on
striking out the section which gives to members the
privilege of franking.]

When the bill under consideration is once passed into a law, it is presumable that no gentleman will ever ask a member to frank for him, as he cannot grant the request consistently with his honor; the apprehension entertained of the existence of abuses, and of their increasing with the increase of numbers, would be an argument equally valid against every law; for no law can be framed, as that the people will not find means to evade it. But still the Legislature will have the power of correcting the abuses, as soon as discovered, by passing new laws to check them. The committee who drafted the bill, had before them all the acts of the British Legislature, respecting the post office; they saw the abuses and how they had been remedied; and with such light to guide their steps, they had proceeded in the execution of their task. The privilege of franking they had introduced into the bill, upon mature considerations; to take it away would be leveling a deadly stroke at the liberty of the press; the information conveyed by franks, may be considered as the vital juices, and the channels of the post office as the veins; and if these are stopped, the body must be destroyed; it is treading on dangerous ground, to take any measures that may stop the channels of public information, especially of that which relates to matters in which the people are interested; to check the circulation even of foreign intelligence may be dangerous; but it is highly so, to deprive the people of information respecting the measures of the General Government; nor ought the members to complain of being obliged to read so many letters and petitions as come to their hands in consequence of the exemption from postage. If any gentleman thought this a heavy task, he ought to remember that it was only his duty, and a task which every member had undertaken when he accepted a seat in the House.

The privilege of franking was granted to the members, not as a personal advantage, (for in fact it proved rather a burden), but as a benefit to their constituents, who, by means of it, derive information from those who are best qualified to give it, as they are the persons chosen to administer the General Government. The members also receive useful information through the same channel. When the impost law and the excise law were under consideration, many persons who were better acquainted with the operation of such laws, transmitted to the House much valuable information on those subjects; and to such information the House ought ever to be open; as, on the other hand, the motives for adopting certain measures, ought always to be explained to influential characters in the different parts of the Union. Such conduct will produce the most salutary effects in reconciling the people to the measures of Government, when the principles upon which every law is framed, are explained to them, as well by the correspondence of the members, as by their debates, published in the newspapers. It is the duty of the members to disperse the newspapers among those people who cannot, perhaps, otherwise obtain them, under the protection of franks. Even along the post roads, the common packets of newspapers are not safe from depredation; but when once they get into the interior parts of the country, there is hardly any chance of their escaping; whereas, under the cover of a frank, they are sure to reach their destination in safety.

If the privilege were confined, during the session, to letters sent from and received at the seat of Government, and the members limited to their own letters, and obliged to write the whole superscription, the increase of the apprehended abuses would be prevented; if it were further restricted, by limiting to those letters only what are sent to or come from the State to which the member belongs, this would convince the people, that the privilege was intended for the benefit, not of the members, but of their constituents.

Further, it was observed, that every argument, which might be adduced in favor of withdrawing the privilege from the members of Congress, might be used with equal force in the cases of President, Vice President, and every other public officer, mentioned in the same section. If the allowance of six dollars per day was a reason for subjecting the members to the payment of postage, every public officer ought also, on the same principle, to pay for his letters, as they were all compensated with equal liberality. If abuses were apprehended from the members, others were as likely to introduce them as they; if an increase of revenue was contemplated, the postage of all letters to and from the President, the Vice President, the Secretaries of State, of the Treasury, of the Department of War, &c., would contribute to that increase; but, on the other hand, those gentlemen must have their compensations increased, if their letters were to be taxed; for they could not be expected to pay for them at their own expense. If the privilege can be guarded against abuse, with respect to those officers, it can also be guarded in the case of members of Congress.

The establishment of the post office is agreed to be for no other purpose than the conveyance of information into every part of the Union; and a greater portion of that had been conveyed into many of the interior parts of the country, by the newspapers sent by the members of the House, than could be conveyed by other means, excepting on the main roads on which stages go. That information had proved highly serviceable to the present Government; for wherever the newspapers had extended, or even the correspondence of the members, no opposition has been made to the laws; whereas, the contrary was experienced in those parts to which the information had not penetrated; and even there, the opposition ceased, as soon as the principles on which the laws had been passed, were made known to the people.

As long as the privilege can be thus used for the general advantages of the citizens, it ought not to be relinquished by the members merely through fear of its being thought a personal privilege; it might be confined to members actually attending the session; they might be obliged to write the whole superscription, and even to add the date. In short, the wisdom of the House, it was hoped, would prevent all the evils apprehended from it, and retain the advantages.

The question being taken on the motion, for withdrawing the privilege from the members, it passed in the negative; yeas 21, nays 35.

TUESDAY, December 20.

_Post Office Bill._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill for establishing the Post Office and Post Roads within the United States.

Mr. WADSWORTH moved an amendment, to withdraw the privilege of franking from the members of both Houses of Congress.

In support of this motion, it was said, that the grand security which the people of the United States have in their Representatives is, that those Representatives are subject to the same regulations as their constituents. In the article of postage, this was not the case. Congress, in this case, assume to themselves a privilege, which they refuse to the people; they took money from their constituents, and paid none themselves. The people viewed this privilege with a jealous eye, and could not be pleased to see it enjoyed by Congress, whilst neither the members of the State Assemblies, nor even the Governors were indulged in it. Congress enjoys only chartered rights; and all rights not expressly mentioned in the charter, are of course excluded. The constitution is their charter; the Convention, who framed it, had, no doubt, well considered the whole subject of privileges and accurately defined all such as they wished the Legislative body should enjoy distinct from their constituents. In the enumeration of those privileges, there is not a syllable tending to exonerate them from their share of the common burden of postage; they have no constitutional claim to such an immunity, and if they assumed it they would increase the burden on their constituents. The post office, if unable to maintain itself, must derive its support from other sources of revenue. Already the members of both Houses send and receive, during their session, as many letters through the General Post Office as all the other inhabitants of Philadelphia; those letters, if paid at the usual rates, would amount to half the postage of the United States. The number and bulk of the franked letters and packets excluded the newspapers from the mail, and thus prevented the circulation of intelligence; if the evil increased (and there was no probability of its being diminished, except by the utter abolition of the privilege) it would eventually prove the ruin of the post office. The example of Britain showed to what an enormous height the abuse of such a privilege may be carried; and though similar abuses may not as yet have taken place here, yet it could hardly be doubted that many unnecessary letters were daily sent by the post, which never would have been written if subject to postage; those letters are not only unproductive, but an actual expense to the post office, as the postmaster receives a certain percentage on these, as well as upon other letters. The privilege of franking is moreover unequal in its operation; while some members use it only for the purpose of transmitting political information to their constituents, others, absent perhaps during the whole session, use it for very different purposes: to men in trade it was a considerable advantage, amounting probably, in some instances, to a hundred dollars a year. It would be better to take away the privilege entirely, and reduce the general rates of postage one-half, or to allow the members, at the close of each session, to make a charge for all letters on public business, from their constituents, or to make them an allowance in gross to defray the expense of postage; better, even, if necessary, to make an addition to the compensation which the members receive for their services, if the present one be found incompetent to their honorable support.

On the other hand, it was observed, that the privilege of franking was not assumed by the members for their own private accommodation, but for the benefit of their constituents, to transmit to them every necessary information respecting the operations of the General Government, and to receive from them such information as they might have to communicate. Petitions are frequently enclosed to members; and if these were to be subject to the payment of postage, the privilege of petitioning the House, would be in a great measure destroyed. The diminution of revenue which the post office might in some instances suffer from the privilege of franking, ought not to be deemed a sufficient reason for abolishing that privilege; since it is allowed, that the object contemplated in the establishment was the general convenience, and an easy and speedy mode of disseminating public and private intelligence. Revenue was but a secondary consideration. Although the citizens who live at the seat of Government, and have daily opportunities of learning from the newspapers what public measures are going forward, may not be materially affected by the abrogation of the privilege, yet the case would be widely different with those who live at a distance, especially when fiscal operations were on foot; those who are informed, will make a prey of those who are ignorant, and destructive speculation will enrich the few, at the expense of the many. In a government of opinion (which is the Government of America) much greater reliance is to be placed on the confidence of the people than upon any other circumstance: that confidence can only be the result of the fullest information; but if the privilege of franking were taken away, the avenues of information would be, in a great measure, closed, for the members could not undertake, at their own private expense, to transmit intelligence to every part of the Union; yet the citizens have a right to expect information, not only of the acts of Government, but also the principles upon which they were grounded. The abuses of the privilege, that have prevailed in England, do not prevail here; and its abolition would give general dissatisfaction, particularly in the more distant parts of the Union, where information would be subject to a very high tax, if circulated through the post office, at the ordinary rates of postage. Of those bundles of letters received and dispatched by members of Congress, many (though far from being unnecessary, as had been said) would perhaps never be written, if they were not to pass free of postage; and thus that free communication of sentiment between the Representative and constituent, which is so essential in a Government like this, would be in a great measure cut off; and the post office would gain little or nothing by it, as those packets of newspapers, bills, reports, &c., would either be sent by private hand, or not sent at all; even here an inequality would prevail, as the people who live near the seat of Government, and all along the main road, could, from the greater frequency of opportunities, receive such packets with more ease and regularity, whilst those in more remote situations could seldom or never receive them, unless by the mail. The expense arising from the percentage to the postmaster on the free letters, is but trifling, as in such cases he receives no more for a packet of two ounces than for a single letter; and as to the idea of allowing the members to make a charge for their letters, this would be no better than receiving with one hand and paying away with the other. If, however, it were found absolutely necessary to take precautions against the abuses that were apprehended, this might be done by limiting the number or weight of letters that should go free by any one post, without entirely preventing the interchange of sentiments between the Representative and his constituents.

The committee then rose, without taking the question on the amendment.

THURSDAY, December 22.

_Election of President, &c._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill sent from the Senate, entitled "An act relative to the election of a President and Vice President of the United States, and declaring the officer who shall act as President, in case of vacancies in the offices both of President and Vice President."

The bill was read by the Clerk. The first section being again read by the Chairman,

Mr. TUCKER moved to amend this clause by striking out these words, "except in cases in which an extraordinary election of President and Vice President shall take place, as hereinafter specified." This motion was agreed to.

Mr. SEDGWICK made some general observations on the great objects of the bill, and adverting to the term proposed for the choice of Electors of President and Vice President, observed that he had his doubts whether it would not be best to give a longer time. He enlarged on the disagreeable consequences which would probably ensue, in case there should not be a choice by the Electors; as the matter must then be determined by the House, voting according to the constitution, by States. He descanted on the pernicious consequences which might result from the collision of parties, and the working of passions in the breasts of men whose ardor would probably be excited to the greatest degree on such an occasion; every reasonable measure should be adopted to prevent the evils which he deprecated; he therefore moved that the words "thirty days" should be struck out, in order to give the people a longer time to give in their votes for Electors.

Mr. WHITE objected to the motion. He conceived it was calculated to produce the very mischiefs the gentleman appeared to deprecate. If it had been possible, he could have wished that the Electors should meet and give in their votes on the very day of their being chosen; he wished as much as the gentleman to adopt measures to prevent the evils he mentioned; but did not think the motion would conduce to that object; he thought the time should rather be contracted than extended.

Mr. DAYTON also objected to the motion; he thought fourteen days would be a more proper time; it was the design of the constitution, though it is not expressed, that the President should not know the characters to whom he is indebted for his election.

Mr. SEDGWICK observed, that the objections would be very proper was it certainly known that the Electors would always agree in a choice; but this he conceived, it was hardly possible should always be the case; and what will then take place? The election devolves on this House, and the Electors will then be known, and liable to all that intrigue and cabal which has prevailed in other countries. He left it to the consideration of the committee to determine on the immense importance of providing in season against the evils of a contested election, in the case now before them.

Mr. BALDWIN objected to the motion; but said if it was struck out, he should then move to insert a clause which should assign different periods according to the circumstances of the several States, so that the Electors should meet as nearly as possible at the same time in all the States.

Mr. NILES objected to the motion; and the question being put it was negatived.

The clause which makes it the duty of the Executive of the several States to cause the names of the Electors to be certified, was objected to.

Mr. NILES observed that no person could be called upon to discharge any duty on behalf of the United States, who had not accepted of an appointment under their authority. He thought that this was opening the door too wide, and involves a blending of the respective powers and duties of each, which is not warranted by the constitution; and he observed that he should be sorry that the Government of the United States should attempt to exercise a power which they are not competent to carry into execution. He moved that the clause should be struck out.

Mr. SEDGWICK observed that if Congress were not authorized to call on the Executives of the several States, he could not conceive what description of persons they were empowered to call upon.

Mr. NILES said he considered this section as degrading to the Executive of the several States; and inquired, what is to be done in case those Executives should refuse to comply with the requisition?

Mr. CLARK said, it appeared to him that the committee was creating difficulties where none before existed. He observed that the choosing these Electors was a privilege conferred on the people, and that this was merely pointing out the mode of exercising this privilege; he thought the clause stood very well and would create no uneasiness whatever.

Mr. HILLHOUSE said, he considered the provision improper. It imposed a duty on the Supreme Executives of the several States, which they might or might not execute; and thus the necessary certificates may not be made. He seconded the motion to strike out the clause, and proposed a substitute making it the duty of the Electors to procure for themselves the necessary certificates.

Mr. LIVERMORE spoke in favor of the clause; he did not consider it either as an undue assumption of power, or degrading to the Executives of the respective States.

Mr. BARNWELL said, a small addition to the clause would in his opinion obviate every difficulty; the words he proposed to insert were--"or such person as the Executive may appoint."

Mr. STURGES moved to strike out "Executive," and insert "the Legislature."

Mr. J. SMITH said, it appeared to him that the proposed alteration would amount to exactly the same thing; for the duty of giving the certificate would eventually devolve on the Executive.

The motion for striking out the clause was negatived.

The ninth section provides, that in case of vacancies in the offices of President and Vice President, the President of the Senate _pro tem._, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall act as President.

Mr. WHITE moved the section should be struck out. He said the House had formerly discussed the subject and could not agree; the first part of the bill is necessary; this is not of immediate importance to be attended to.

Mr. FITZSIMONS said, he supposed the question must be determined some time or other, and he knew of no reason why it should not be decided at this time; to strike out the clause would, in effect, be to declare that the House could not agree.

Mr. WILLIAMSON was in favor of striking out.

Mr. LIVERMORE objected to the motion; he said no two subjects could possibly be more intimately connected; and the provisions of the bill are such as to render the intermission, during which this regency was to take place, as short as possible; he hoped the clause would not be stricken out.

Mr. WHITE added some further objections to the section; he said it was distinct from the bill, and though a majority of the committee were in favor of the characters nominated, yet he thought it would be best to make it the object of another bill, and of an independent discussion.

Mr. SEDGWICK said, he hoped the section would not be struck out, especially if there is a majority of the committee in favor of it. He observed, that last session there was no decision in the case; he conceived it necessary that the business should be now decided on; and adverting to the particular characters named, he said they were as far removed from any influence of the Executive as any persons that could be possibly pointed out.

Mr. BARNWELL was in favor of going into a discussion of the subject at this time. He said there was a large number of the present House who had not heard the observations offered in the last Congress; he supposed the present as proper a time to consider the subject as any that could occur. If gentlemen who are opposed to the section will offer their objections, he should be glad to hear them; if they were conclusive, he should vote to strike out the section. If nothing was offered, he should vote against the motion.

Mr. STURGES mentioned several objections to the section, which in his opinion rendered it unconstitutional; he could not find that the Speaker of the House, or President of the Senate _pro tem._ were officers of the Government in the sense contemplated by the constitution. The compensations of the President and Vice President are settled by the House; the Speaker would have to decide on those compensations; this he said rendered him evidently improper. He further observed that the consequence would be caballing and electioneering in the choice of Speaker.

Mr. WHITE said, the Speaker was not a permanent officer, if he could be considered as one in any point of view; but he was of opinion, that he was no more an officer of the Government than every other member of the House.

The question for striking out the section was negatived.

Mr. STURGES then moved to strike out the words, "the President of the Senate _pro tempore_, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives."

Mr. GILES stated the reasons which he conceived fully proved the unconstitutionality of the clause. The characters referred to he did not think were officers. If they had been considered as such, it is probable they would have been designated in the constitution; the constitution refers to some permanent officer to be created pursuant to the provisions therein contained. These persons are not permanent; a permanent officer was contemplated; the subject was not to be left to any casuality, if it could possibly be prevented.

Mr. SEDGWICK said, he did not know what officer could with propriety be said to be permanent; offices are held during good behavior in some instances, and in others during pleasure; but it will be impossible to say that any officer is a permanent officer, for the expression is very extensive. He was surprised to hear the idea controverted, that the Speaker of the House, or the President of the Senate _pro tem._, is not an officer. In common parlance he was sure there was no difficulty in the matter.

Mr. GERRY observed, that some gentleman had said the Speaker is not an officer; but if he is not an officer, what is he? He then read a clause from the constitution, which says that the House shall choose their Speaker _and other officers_. He hoped, however, that the Speaker of the House of Representatives would be struck out, in order to avoid blending the Legislative and Executive branches together. He considered this measure as a political stroke of the Senate; but he hoped that the House would never consent to making their Speaker an amphibious animal. He moved therefore that the words "Speaker of the House of Representatives" should be struck out.

Mr. HILLHOUSE objected to any officer appointed by the Executive being inserted. He said, if that should be the case, the appointments would in most cases be made with reference to that object; and hence important offices would often be filled with improper and incompetent persons. Besides, it was taking away the choice from the people, and thus violating the first principle of a free elective Government. The Senate are appointed by the people, or their Representatives, and hence, in his opinion, filling the vacancy would devolve with the greatest propriety on that body.

Mr. WILLIAMSON was in favor of the motion for striking out both the characters. He observed, that this extensive construction of the meaning of the word officer, would render it proper to point out any person in the United States, whether connected with the Government or not, as a proper person to fill the vacancy contemplated.

Before taking the question upon the amendment, the committee rose.

TUESDAY, January 10.

A memorial of George Turner, one of the Judges in and over the territory of the United States north-west of the Ohio, was presented to the House and read, praying a revision of the ordinance for the government of the said territory, and also an increase of compensation to the Judges thereof. Referred to Mr. LIVERMORE, Mr. LAURANCE, Mr. WHITE, Mr. WILLIAMSON, and Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina); that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

On a motion made and seconded,

"That the Secretary of War be instructed to lay before this
House an accurate statement of all ascertained balances of
pay, which appear by the books of the United States to be
due to the officers and soldiers of the late Army of the
United States, and which still remain either unclaimed, or
claimed and unpaid, together with the reasons for
withholding payment from those who may have respectively
entered claims therefor;"

_Ordered_, That the said motion be referred to Mr. WADSWORTH, Mr. GILES, and Mr. SMITH, (of New Hampshire;) that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

The House proceeded to fill up the remaining blanks in the bill to establish the Post Office and Post Roads of the United States; which was then read a third time and passed.

_Petition of Catharine Greene._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury on the petition of Catharine Greene, relict of the late General Greene.

The object of the petition is to obtain an indemnification from the United States against certain engagements which were entered into by her husband, the deceased Major General Nathaniel Greene, while commanding officer in the Southern department; and for the circumstances on which it is founded, refers to a representation of the 22d August, 1785, which was then made by the said General Greene to Congress.

The petition is accompanied by a number of vouchers, arranged in alphabetical order by the Secretary of the Treasury in his Report; from all which he draws the following conclusion:

"That strong and extraordinary motives of national
gratitude for the very signal and important services
rendered by General Greene to his country, must serve to
give a keener sting to the regret, which ought ever to
attend the necessity of a strict adherence to claims of
public policy, in opposition to claims founded on useful
acts of zeal for the public service, if no means of
protecting from indigence and penury the family of that
most meritorious officer shall, upon examination, be found
admissible."

Mr. WAYNE rose and gave his reasons for supporting the petition, as follows:

Mr. Chairman: It may not be improper to mention the motives that impel me to wish a fortunate issue to the _claim_ now under consideration of this committee, which I must also offer as an apology for the part I have taken, or that I may eventually take, in support of the claim. From my first interview with General Greene until the moment of his dissolution, we always lived in the strictest habits of friendship and confidence. He was an officer with whom I had participated in almost every vicissitude of fortune, (in many a well-tried field,) from the frozen waters of the North to the burning sands of the South. He was a man whose virtues and talents I knew and revered; his noble soul would have revolted at the idea of imposition. He never would have offered in a _claim_ to Congress, but upon the purest principles of honor and justice. I was a witness to the pressing necessity that _compelled_ him to become the surety, for which indemnity is now claimed. He did what I would have done, (as second in command,) had he been absent at that trying crisis. The claim I _know_ to be just, and I am decidedly of opinion that he was drawn into that security from the situation in which he was placed by Congress, as Commander-in chief of the Southern Department. Under these impressions, I beg leave to submit to the consideration of this committee the resolutions now in my hand, and doubt not of their concurrent support.

"_Resolved, as the opinion of this Committee_, That the
estate of the late Major General Nathaniel Greene ought to
be indemnified for and on account of the engagements
entered into by that General with certain persons in the
State of South Carolina, for the purpose of obtaining
supplies for the American Army, in the year 1783, and that
---- be granted to the Executors of the estate of the late
Major General Nathaniel Greene, for that purpose.

"_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed to bring in a
bill in conformity to the foregoing resolution."

Mr. BOUDINOT said, there was no greater friend to the memory of General Greene than he was, nor any person more anxious to have justice done to his widow and family; but he was apprehensive that the resolution proposed by the worthy gentleman who had first brought forward this subject was not drawn up in such a manner as to ensure it a passage through both Houses of Congress. He wished, therefore, that it should be so expressed as to prevent any tedious discussion, and at the same time do ample justice. The Report of the Secretary of the Treasury puts the subject on the best footing. The motives which led him to make the contract were, first, the public good; and perhaps, secondly, to serve his friend, Mr. Burnett, because he was his aide-de-camp, and he wished to put him in the way of being established in business after the war; but Mr. Burnett was never in any other way connected with General Greene than as a young man brought up in the family, whom he wished to patronize.

After a few other observations, Mr. BOUDINOT moved to strike out the preamble of the resolution proposed by Mr. WAYNE, and to adopt words nearly in substance as follows:

"_Resolved_, That it is becoming the dignity of Congress to
make compensation for the widow and orphans of the late
Major General Greene, who so gloriously served his country;
and that they be indemnified for the loss which his estate
is likely to sustain by his having entered into certain
bonds for supplying the Southern army with rations and
clothing, at a time when they were threatening to
disperse."

Mr. FINDLAY observed, that on the question as it is now stated, the committee have a choice of three alternatives; the claim may be rejected, a pension or gratuity may be granted to the amount, or the claim of the petition may be granted as a matter of right, upon the footing of its own merits by a special law, as all authorized claims which Congress grant are given. Claims for which the standing laws are competent, do not come before us. I am in favor of the last alternative. I am against rejecting the petition; because, as the facts are stated in the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury, General Greene putting himself in this situation of risk was from the most public-spirited motive; it was to support the public interest at a most important crisis, when the well-being, if not the existence of the Southern army was at stake, as well as the security of the inhabitants. If a commander-in-chief of an army may be ruined in his private affairs by making an unauthorized exertion to save his army or his country, the precedent may be dangerous; it may teach commanders lessons of prudence, which may have ruinous effects. It is true the necessity of the case must be such as will justify the unauthorized measure: from the Report, this appears to have been the case in the subject of the present debate. From the whole state of the facts before us, General Greene appears not to have had his own interest in view in this transaction, if the proof of this only lay between Banks and him. The established character of General Greene, not only as an officer, but as a man of integrity and public spirit, certainly cannot sink when laid in the balance with the secret insinuation of an unprincipled speculator. Such has been my own opinion of General Greene's character, that I would certainly require other proofs than this before I would even indulge suspicions: but it does not rest upon this. We have Banks's own testimony to the contrary, and his partner, and we know it would have been the interest of Banks & Co. to have made the contrary appear: nay, we have such a cloud of witnesses, all concurring to the same point, as appears sufficient to remove doubts from the most scrupulous mind. Unauthorized accounts are admitted in settlements between the United States and the individual States, upon the principles of equity. I consider this as a case of the same nature, and will vote for it agreeably to this precedent. I consider granting the prayer of the petition in this manner, as an act of justice, not only to his estate, but to the memory of his character. But I object to granting the relief in the indirect way of a pension; it is not so safe to the public, nor so honorable to the heirs of General Greene. To the public it is highly dangerous as a precedent; it will operate as an opening wedge to other claims without limitation. Few indeed can have an unauthorized though just claim as commanders-in-chief of an army reduced to such a dilemma as originated the present question; but merit and distress are not confined to commanders alone; they are to be found in every rank of citizens. The struggles during the late revolution produced abundance of merit; we cannot look around in this House, nor in any large collection of citizens, but our eye meets with those who have claims of merit. We can scarcely be acquainted in any neighborhood, but we must be acquainted with such as have been reduced to distress by their meritorious exertions, either in the camp, in the cabinet, or by granting supplies. How many who have aided the public with their substance, have been obliged to part with the evidences of their meritorious claims for a temporary relief. Many of the aged, many widows and orphans, to my knowledge, labor in penury, and mourn in secret, on the account of such meritorious aids not being recompensed when they ought to have been; though this was owing to the public misfortune, yet the merit and sufferings were not the less. I am very sensible of the great merit of General Greene; it is so well known, and so generally acknowledged, on all hands, as to render it improper for me to enlarge thereon. But, superior as his merit was, if we grant a pension or relief not founded on a just claim, merit of a lower order must be also admitted: there is no distinguishing the shades. I have heard of claims on the footing of merit brought before Congress, supported by such arguments as would induce a stranger to think that nearly all the merit of accomplishing the revolution was centred in the claimant. If merit is to be rewarded by pensions, we shall soon have claimants in abundance. In the exercise of supreme command, difficulties often arise which render exertions necessary for which general rules cannot be provided; these have been generally treated as objects of indemnification. Many claims are now before Congress; they are various in their nature, and no doubt a number of them will be admitted; but from every view I have taken of the claim before us, I think the present as strongly addresses our justice and sympathy as any of them.

Mr. WAYNE thought it necessary to make some observations on what had fallen from the gentleman on his right, (Mr. BOUDINOT.) In order to place this subject in a proper point of view, he begged leave to mention certain circumstances previous to the evacuation of Charleston. Some of the first characters in South Carolina obtained a flag from General Greene, to meet a deputation of merchants and others under a flag from the British lines. Those merchants were anxious to remain after the army, for the purpose of disposing of their stock in trade, and wished for a reasonable time to transact that business; this indulgence was readily granted, for it was thought an object of consequence to retain supplies for the use of the country as well as for the army; and they were permitted to continue in the place for the space of _twelve months_ after the abandonment should take effect. Assurances were also given them for the inviolable protection of their persons and property for that period. Thus sanctioned, they were probably induced to speculate upon such stores as the British army could spare, (for that army was redundantly supplied,) whilst the Americans were experiencing almost every possible distress for want of the common necessaries of life. About this time hopes were entertained of the speedy appearance of a superior marine force from the French West Indies, to that of the British; and the operating army under my command was advanced to the quarter-house, in a position to prevent the enemy from embarking with impunity, and to protect the town and its inhabitants from depredation and insult. This manoeuvre had the desired effect; it created a jealousy in the British General for the safety of his rear, and General Leslie was, in a manner, compelled to come into a convention, more resembling a _capitulation_ than an _abandonment_, for he was under the necessity to "agree not to commit any insult upon the inhabitants, or depredation upon their property, or damage to the city, at or _after_ his embarkation." The word _after_ caused some demur; but it was insisted upon and complied with, in consequence of the orders I had previously received from General Greene; a measure which at once afforded security to the inhabitants, and a flattering prospect of full supplies, as well for the citizens as for the army.

The gentleman (Mr. BOUDINOT) says--How are we to distinguish between the articles and necessaries that were actually made use of by the army, and of the other goods purchased of the British merchants? This may be fully answered and explained by mentioning this fact: that those merchants took advantage of their situation, and would not dispose of any article suitable for the army unless _their whole stock were purchased together_; having but twelve months to dispose of their goods and collect their debts. Nor could the necessary articles be obtained at the point of the bayonet, as the merchants were protected by a compact made under the sanction of a flag. Nor would they trust the contractor _Banks_ with their property, unless General Greene became his security; by which act, in their opinion, the _United States_ would be bound in honor to fulfil a contract made by their commanding officer; nor did General Greene come into the measure until compelled by dire necessity, to prevent a mutiny and dissolution of the army. And such was the exhausted situation of the country in the vicinity of Charleston, that the Executive and the Legislature found it expedient to send a distance into the country to obtain supplies for themselves and the refugee families who were returning to the city after the evacuation: in fact, we were under the necessity of taking part of these very provisions, to prevent an instantaneous revolt.

But the gentleman (Mr. BOUDINOT) says that General Greene's private friendship for Major Burnett, who had been his aide-de-camp, was a peculiar inducement for his entering into that security, and that Major Burnett had mortgaged an island to General Greene as a collateral security. This, indeed, was an act of private friendship; but it was a subsequent transaction, and noways connected with the former, nor is it amongst the charges. This was a private purchase by Major Burnett from Mr. John M'Queen, a gentleman well known in South Carolina; and it was thought to be a very advantageous purchase for Major Burnett at the time it was made, (although it has turned out otherwise,) but it was necessary for him to obtain security, previous to receiving _titles_. He applied to General Greene to become his security upon that occasion, which was complied with; and in that act he certainly displayed a superior degree of private friendship, and such as has already been found extremely injurious to his family; but it is by no means connected with the claim now under consideration.

The danger of establishing a precedent in future, unsupported by previous authority obtained from Congress, is also mentioned as an objection. Mr. Chairman, there never can be any danger of drawing this circumstance into precedent; for the page of history never did before, nor I believe ever will again, produce a similar precedent, _i. e._ an army facing and surmounting every difficulty and danger through a long and bloody contest, badly clothed and worse paid, and frequently destitute of the common necessaries of life. Sir, it is for the honor of General Greene that we contend; and I am warranted in asserting, that he was not interested in the contract of Mr. Banks, otherwise than from the pure and virtuous motives of serving and saving his country. I therefore feel myself interested, and bound in honor to support and defend the character of my departed friend, and to demand this claim as a matter of _right_, and not of _grace_; and I have a confidence that the candor and justice of this committee will induce them to adopt the principles of the resolutions submitted to their consideration.