Chapter LXIV: Introduction (63)

Mr. BOUDINOT imagined that Mr. SMITH had furnished a new and forcible argument against his own cause. This claim of North Carolina to sell the lands was wrong, and this doctrine had been the cause of all the disputes in which the Federal Government has been engaged. The Crown of Britain had never pretended to any right of this kind, nor ever thought it had a title to any lands till they were first purchased from the Indians. The question before the committee was, have the United States taken away any claim which the purchasers of these lands had? And the answer is, that the United States have not. The State of North Carolina only had a right to sell the privilege of pre-emption. This was the only right which the purchasers obtained, and this right they still possess. As to the certificates, they were not those of the United States, but those of North Carolina. They were not Continental certificates, and for that reason Continental officers would not accept them; but North Carolina has since brought these certificates into her account against the General Government. The commissioners, in 1786, had done a very great service to North Carolina, by settling a line of boundary, and putting an end to the Indian war. He thought that the best way would be for the claimants to apply to the Executive, and agree among themselves to extinguish, by an interference of that kind, the Indian right. This would be much better than for the House to involve itself in the purchase of an immense tract of land, at an expense of seven or eight hundred thousand dollars, (or how much more, Mr. B. could not tell,) when there was so much occasion for the money to pay the national debt. He again declared that he should think it the best way to obtain the good offices of the Executive in extinguishing the Indian right. The Six Nations possessed part of the territory of Pennsylvania. This State also may apply to the General Government for redress, if North Carolina were to get payment for these lands. The State of New York may do so, for the same reasons as North Carolina. This would be involving the Government in an endless labyrinth. He was as unwilling as any gentleman in the House to interfere with the rights of the Legislature of North Carolina. But he did not wish to see the House going blindfold into the business. The United States have too much land already.

Mr. KITTERA.--The certificates must have been given in by North Carolina to the United States. She denied the right of the commissioners, in 1786, to make Indian treaties, but now that right is given up. He agreed with Mr. BOUDINOT as to his observations on Pennsylvania. Georgia also, he said, had about sixty millions of acres within her chartered limits. The business would never have an end, if the General Government was to interfere in all these cases.

Mr. SCOTT.--Has not this Government a right to restrain every wild-goose excursion into the woods? If it has not, the Union must fall prostrate at the feet of every wild speculator. Pennsylvania, at a great expense, made preparations for an establishment at Presqu'Isle. The ground had been bought at a great expense from the United States. Yet for the sake of general peace, the settlement had been stopped.

Mr. MCDOWELL denied that the two cases corresponded, for the lands at Presqu'Isle had not been given to the Six Nations.

Mr. BOUDINOT differed from the last speaker. He did not think that any thing farther had been done against the interest of North Carolina than against that of Pennsylvania.

Mr. BLOUNT denied that the Indians ever occupied the lands in question, or were fit to occupy them, in any proper sense of the word. To walk across a country, and to shoot in it, was different from an occupation. But, besides, the Creeks and Cherokees were not the only tribes who had hunted there. It had been said yesterday that these lands gave rise to speculation. Mr. B. wished that it had done so, for in that case the certificates would all have been paid by this time. There was no difficulty in funding Southern certificates, when once they got into the hands of Northern speculators. Mr. B. thought himself entitled to receive back from the United States the money which he had paid into the Treasury of North Carolina for these lands.

Mr. MURRAY requested the favor of any gentleman to inform him, whether the lands in question were possessed and occupied, in the more civilized sense of the terms, by the white people? He believed they were not. Had they been in peaceable possession, living on, and cultivating the lands, that circumstance would form a very interesting motive in his mind in favor of the indemnity that was asked. But, in fact, they never were possessed of any right but that which North Carolina could give them--the pre-emption right; that right they now possessed as fully as they did at the time of the cession to the United States. [Mr. CARNES rose, and informed him, that many white people who had begun farms were driven off their lands, and reduced to great distress by the proceedings of the commissioners.] Mr. M. said, an argument struck him of some weight--that if the claim be gratified, the claimants will be in a better situation now than they would have been if the cession had not been made; for North Carolina could not have given them absolute possession but by force of arms. This she would not have a right to do, under this Confederation, nor under the constitution, as no one State can make war. But the claimants can ask nothing more of the United States than they could have had accomplished for them by the State of North Carolina. A new doctrine, resulting from the Revolution, must be admitted as a ground of reasoning, when Indian, unconquered territory, is before us. The Provinces had power, as individual bodies--which States, as such, have not--the right of making war, and gaining possession of Indian territory by conquest. So it was, that a province could, from its own separate resources, make war on Indians, and pay individually the expense. But when the great contest for independence came on, all the States were, in fact, principal confederated bodies, long before they signed the paper of confederation. The doctrine, which suited such a body of States, was, that whatever might be gained by the joint efforts and expense of all, should be the property of all, jointly; and he thought that every principle of sound justice warranted him in applying the doctrine, so far as to say, that whatever might be the chartered limits of each province, while dependent, yet the moment of the joint contest was that in which the true limits of a State were, as far as property in land went, confined to that boundary which was really located, occupied, and peaceably holden within the limits. To say that the State had a right more positive than the pre-emptive one, to lands actually occupied and defended by hostile tribes of Indians within the chartered limits, admits a principle, that, if put into action, tended necessarily to violate the great principle of the Confederation, and of the present constitution, which divests the individual States of the right to make war; as the State to make good any sales she might make within the hostile territory, would be obliged to make war on the tribes to dispossess them. The lands in question were in this situation. They were occupied by Indian tribes, and were never in possession of North Carolina. The gentleman from that State seems to doubt the occupancy of the tribes. Mr. M. believed we would violate principles of justice were we to borrow the principle of occupancy from books, and apply it to Indian society. The Indian tribes held certain tracts of land. As to the mode in which they thought it most rational to use the land, it was nothing against their right to say its exercise differed from our mode. He understood they made a hunting ground of the land in dispute. They had a right to use it as such, and their mode of use was no argument against their right. All that could be, or was proved to belong to North Carolina, was the colonial right to qualified sovereignty, called the pre-emption right. This was all she could grant, and this was all that the claimants could take from her. They had that now; and as he could not see the propriety of making their situation better than if the cession had not been made, so he could not agree to the resolution for giving them indemnity. Perhaps his ideas on the subject might be fashioned by local circumstances, belonging as he did to a State which had no share in those rich funds which the large frontier States possessed, he thought, very unjustly, in immense tracts of back lands. He felt it a duty to narrow all claims like the present as much as possible. Connecticut, Rhode Island, Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, were all in the same situation. They had no back lands, and were divested of the share they were justly entitled to in the back lands, which now bring immense funds of wealth into the land offices of those States which possess them.

Mr. HEISTER wished to have that part of the law read which relates to the species of certificates referred to in the debate; this was accordingly done. Mr. H. said that he had not enough of evidence before him to give a vote. He therefore wished that the committee might rise.

Mr. MACON said, that, according to Mr. BOUDINOT, it was the doctrine of North Carolina in 1783, that the State possessed aright to the unappropriated lands. If that was their doctrine then, nothing had since happened which could make it cease to be so now. The Crown of Britain had transferred the absolute property of lands, without inquiring for permission from the Indians. This evidence went strongly to prove that North Carolina had the same title. The case of Presqu'Isle did not apply, for Pennsylvania was raising troops to make that settlement, and no State can, by the constitution, raise troops of itself. He wished the committee not to rise till they had determined the question.

Mr. CARNES had foreseen that the claim before the committee would be opposed upon various grounds: but he considered none of them as well founded. Grants were first made by North Carolina to individuals, of lands within her chartered boundary. The cession made to, and accepted by the United States, conditioned to secure the interest of individuals. A treaty was thereafter ordered to be held by the United States with the Indians, and by that treaty, lands formerly granted, were relinquished to them. The commissioners of North Carolina protested in form. The people turned out, had paid ten pounds the hundred acres, for their lands, and they were entitled to compensation from North Carolina, or from the United States. It had been said that North Carolina had no right but that of pre-emption. This Mr. C. denied. North Carolina had a right to all the lands within her boundary; and there was an express agreement reserving those lands to individuals. Why did the United States contract with the State, if she had no right? The Indians never could have been considered an independent nation, else there would be compensation _in imperio_. He mentioned the case of the Tallissee Country containing four million of acres. By a treaty made in 1785, between the State of Georgia and the Creeks, this land was ceded to Georgia. By a second treaty at New York, this very country was relinquished to the Indians, and of course the _bona fide_ right of the State wrested from them. If a decision could be had on this case before a judicial tribunal, it would not require a moment's hesitation to determine in favor of the State, and that the treaty was a nullity. It had been alleged that the right of pre-emption was the only right in possession of the States, that is, a title to purchase of the holders of the property, in exclusion of all other States, or individuals thereof or the particular State. Mr. C. contended that the fee-simple of all the soil within the chartered limits belonged to the State. As to the boundaries, the definitive treaty of peace settles them beyond contradiction. As to the proprietors of these lands being in no worse condition now than before the cession back to the Indians, the people were ploughing the lands, when driven from them, and will any gentleman say that this is not injuring people? As to the State of North Carolina having no particular claim to the land now beyond the Indian line, he would put a case within the chapter of possibilities. Suppose that all the Indians were driven over the Mississippi to-morrow, to whom would the lands which they now possess belong? The particular States to be sure, within whose range they lay. The gentlemen who advocate for morality, and who talk of treating the Indians with humanity, are the very men who have uniformly countenanced the raising of troops, and augmenting the force on our north-western frontiers. How can they reconcile their conduct? The Indians to the South are to be treated with humanity, and those to the North are to be butchered, that the United States may enjoy their property.

Mr. BOUDINOT said, that the charter from Britain extended to the South Sea, but such a stretch of territory was not really claimed by Britain. He read several of the old laws of North Carolina, to prove that the Indian right of soil had always been acknowledged.

Mr. BLOUNT had never thought of quoting this book, which he now did, to show that the British Government had authorized conquest. He did not know of one purchase made in Carolina. It was all conquest, and so were nine-tenths of all the lands held by the white people in America.

Mr. MCDOWELL.--Those lands which are the subject of debate, and which a number of gentlemen have contended, that North Carolina had not a right to grant to her citizens, have been proved to be within the chartered limits as granted by Charles II., and which limits, sovereignty and jurisdiction were guaranteed to the State by the Articles of Confederation.

After this, and within the year 1783, the Legislature passed a law for opening an office to receive entries of lands in the district of country now called the territory south of the Ohio, for the redemption of special and other certificates; and after a number of the surveys were made, and the grants issued, the Government of the United States ordered a treaty to be held with the Cherokee Indians at Holston, in the year 1785, and the commissioners agreed to give up a large quantity of lands before stated to the Indians; but, previous to articles being signed, Colonel Blount, who was the agent for North Carolina, entered his protest in behalf of the State, that some of the articles about to be entered into between the commissioners, on the part of the United States, and the Cherokee Indians, would infringe on the Legislative rights of the State of North Carolina, and the Legislature of the State also protested against the proceedings.

I must here remark, that the then Government of the United States, agreeably to the Articles of Confederation, could not legally make use of the property of the State for any purpose without their consent.

This continued to be the situation of this business, till after Congress requested a cession of those lands, with the sovereignty thereof, which now form the territory south of the Ohio, which was complied with under certain reservations, to continue claims, and the situations of the claimants as good as though this cession had not been made, which was a complete acknowledgment of the right of North Carolina, on the part of the United States, but in my opinion placed them in the same situation that the State would have been in, had the cession not taken place.

Since the adoption of the present Government, another treaty was ordered to be held with the Indians, and the lands were given up to the Indians. Here the Executive right to make such treaty may be questioned, and I believe rightly too; for it would be an extraordinary power for them to make use of the property of individuals, without their consent, or making any compensation, and apply it to national purposes. Great difficulties would be involved were a remedy to be attempted in a judicial way against the Government. I do therefore think either that policy or interest, on the part of the United States, would point out a compliance, in part, with the report on the table, for it will not place the United States in any worse situation than they would have been in, had the lands not been entered. Had that been the case, those certificates would have been in the hands of individuals, a debt against the Government, but on their being subscribed now, to the amount actually paid on their relinquishing their claim, you would then have the land, which will be valuable at a period far distant.

Some gentlemen appear to be alarmed at the sum; but if the principle is a just or fair one, the sum ought not to be an objection. I will here state further, to remove the alarms of those gentlemen, that the sum will fall far short of the statement made by Mr. Jefferson, as a great deduction is to be taken from that; but I can further assert, that a great number of the claimants would not relinquish their claim to said lands to subscribe; it would generally be such as are in indigent circumstances. And here I cannot help making some reply to the objections stated by several members, who have alleged that North Carolina had acted wrong in selling these lands before they had extinguished the Indian claim, and that the claimants were in no worse situation than they would have been had the cession not have taken place. I am not a little surprised to find, that gentlemen cannot see the distinction, for had the cession and treaty at Holston taken place, they were at liberty to settle the lands, and North Carolina was bound to protect them; but since the treaty had been made, the land is not only given up as stated, but it is made criminal to cross the boundary. Mr. DEXTER has stated that North Carolina has acted unjustly and wrong in making sale of those lands before she had extinguished the Indian claims.

Here I shall repeat what I stated before in answer to what the gentleman has said: That the Indian claims to said lands were, in part, extinguished by Henderson's purchase, and part by conquest, and that a considerable part of the lands, that no nation of Indians could establish a claim to, had been claimed by different tribes as territory grounds, but had not been inhabited by any tribe within the memory, or any account that can be traced, and for as great a length of time the different tribes had been at war with each other about the right of hunting on said land. But so far as it relates to the right of North Carolina, I believe no member has a right to call it in question at this time. The gentleman's arguments would have been more applicable at the time the cession act was under consideration; and as to what the member said about the principle and precedent it would fix, I will only call the attention of that gentleman and the committee, to the conduct of the Government of the United States. Have they not pushed conquests into the Indian country north-west of the Ohio? Are they not continuing to do so, and is it not in contemplation to sell large quantities of lands in that country, that have never been purchased? If so, the precedent which the gentleman fears so much is already established. But here I beg leave to call the attention of the committee, in the most serious manner, to the number of citizens concerned, perhaps near twenty thousand. A great number of them are men who turned out in support of the American Independence, who fought, who bled, and furnished their property freely to the support of the cause. For this service they received certificates, which they wished to realize by entering said lands, and flattered themselves with sitting down on those lands, and in the latter part of life making themselves and families happy. Their hopes were soon blasted. After the act of last session, the Treaty of Holston took place, which gave their property to a savage and cruel enemy, to quiet the minds of an enemy who not only were opposed to us through the war with Britain, but ever since have been imbruing their hands in the blood of innocent women and children. What will be the feelings of the claimants, who have acted as I have stated, when they find that their request, which to be sure is a modest one, and which is only to be reimbursed for sums actually paid, is refused? Should this be the decision, I leave you to draw the conclusion. Should they proceed to settle those lands in opposition to the treaty, I should not be much surprised. But the report on your table goes too far, as to damage and a future preference, which I am not in favor of; therefore the resolutions in the latter part of the report I hope will be stricken out.

On the same question, Mr. GILLESPIE made the subsequent remarks: he observed a disposition in the House to call the question; he then said that the situation in which he stood required that he should say something in support of the resolution under consideration, as it had been stated as a new and singular case, from which he took the liberty to dissent, as every writer on the law and usage of nations, held it as an invariable axiom, that all sacrifices of property made by individuals for public uses, ought to be paid out of the public purse. He stated the treaty between England, France, and Spain, in 1763, and the case of the loyalists in 1783, and as the hour of adjournment had arrived, concluded with a motion for the committee to rise and report progress.

The question was then put, Shall the committee now rise and report progress? This was negatived. The resolutions in the report were successively put, and lost.

The committee then rose; the Chairman reported progress, and the House adjourned.

FRIDAY, January 30.

The House proceeded to consider the report of the committee to whom was referred the Message from the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, of the thirtieth of January, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-four, enclosing the copy of a letter from the Governor of North Carolina, covering a resolution of the Legislature of that State; as, also, the petitions of Thomas Person and others, proprietors of lands in the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio, and of the Trustees of the University of North Carolina, to which the Committee of the whole House had, yesterday, reported their disagreement: Whereupon,

The first resolution reported by the committee, being again read, in the words following, to wit:

"_Resolved_, That it shall be lawful for the Executive of
the State of North Carolina to subscribe, by way of loan to
the United States, the amount of all such certificates as
have been deposited in payment for any lands, (reserved by
the act of cession aforesaid,) in payment for any lands
which may have been relinquished to the Indians by the
treaty aforesaid, in trust for the persons by whom they
were so deposited, according to their respective rights and
interests:"

The question was taken, that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House in their disagreement to the said first resolution, and it was resolved in the affirmative.

The second resolution reported by the committee, being again read, in the words following, to wit:

"_Resolved_, That the United States ought to reimburse the
said persons the money which they have expended in having
entries and surveys made, and in obtaining grants, and any
other incidental charges which they have necessarily
incurred, with interest; and that they should moreover make
a reasonable allowance for the loss and damage which the
petitioners have sustained, by having possession of the
said land withheld from them:"

The question was taken, that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House in their disagreement to the said second resolution, and resolved in the affirmative.

The third resolution reported by the committee, being again read, in the words following, to wit:

"And whereas, the grants to the aforesaid lands, made by
virtue of an act of the Legislature of North Carolina, are
valid to all intents and purposes, as coming fully within
the purview of a condition contained in the act of session
from the said State to the United States: therefore,

"_Resolved_, That, whenever the United States shall think
proper to extinguish the Indian claim to the said lands, by
purchase or otherwise, it will be just and reasonable that
the several persons who have obtained grants or made
surveys or entries, should have such rights confirmed and
established, and their titles perfected, in preference to
any other persons, on repaying to the Treasury of the
United States, the amount of what they may now receive, as
a compensation for their disbursements and losses, in case
such persons shall think proper to make such repayment
within a certain time, to be limited by Congress for that
purpose:"

The question was taken that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House, in their disagreement to the said third resolution, and resolved in the affirmative.

A motion was then made, and the question being put, that the House do agree to the following resolution:

"_Resolved_, That such persons as have entered lands
agreeably to the laws of North Carolina, in the territory
ceded by that State to the United States, and on the Indian
side of the line established by the Treaty of Holston,
ought to be reimbursed by the United States the amount of
the purchase-money actually paid for the same, and the
necessary expense of locating and surveying, where the
survey has been made; such persons first relinquishing
their right thereto, to the United States:"

It passed in the negative--yeas 14, nays 56, as follows:

YEAS.--Theodorus Bailey, Thomas Blount, William B. Grove,
George Hancock, Matthew Locke, Nathaniel Macon, Joseph
McDowell, Alexander Mebane, John Page, Robert Rutherford,
William Smith, Benjamin Wiliams, Richard Winn, and Joseph
Winston.

NAYS.--Fisher Ames, John Beatty, Elias Boudinot,
Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, Lambert Cadwalader,
Thomas Claiborne, David Cobb, Peleg Coffin, Joshua Coit,
Jonathan Dayton, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, Gabriel
Duvall, Benjamin Edwards, Thomas Fitzsimons, Dwight Foster,
Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin
Goodhue, Andrew Gregg, Thomas Hartley, John Heath, James
Hillhouse, William Hindman, Samuel Holten, John Hunter,
William Irvine, Aaron Kitchell; Amasa Learned, William
Lyman, James Madison, William Montgomery, Andrew Moore,
Peter Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, Anthony New, John
Nicholas, Nathaniel Niles, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker,
Andrew Pickens, Francis Preston, Thomas Scott, John S.
Sherburne, Jeremiah Smith, Samuel Smith, Zephaniah Swift,
George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, Jonathan Trumbull, John E.
Van Allen, Peter Van Gaasbeck, Artemas Ward, and Paine
Wingate.

Another motion was then made and seconded, that the House do come to the following resolution:

"RESOLVED, That the President of the United States be
requested to cause a treaty to be entered into with any
Indian tribes who may claim, hold, possess, or be entitled,
to any lands within the territory ceded by the State of
North Carolina to the United States; and to endeavor to
obtain, by such treaty, an extinguishment of the Indian
claims to all lands, the pre-emptive right to which has
been sold by the said State, in pursuance of the act of one
thousand seven hundred and eighty-three, opening an office
for the sale of the said lands."

_Ordered_, That the said motion be committed to Mr. WILLIAM SMITH, Mr. DAYTON, Mr. SWIFT, Mr. MCDOWELL, and Mr. PAGE.

MONDAY, February 9.

ROBERT GOODLOE HARPER, returned to serve in this House as a member for the State of South Carolina, in the room of ALEXANDER GILLON, deceased, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

FRIDAY, February 13.

_Heirs of Count de Grasse._

A memorial of Amelie, Adelaide, Melanie, and Silvie de Grasse, four daughters of the late Count de Grasse, now residing at Salem in the State of Massachusetts, was presented to the House and read, praying a loan of money for their present subsistence; the effects which they brought from France being exhausted, and having no other means of support, but in property in the Island of St. Domingo, from which, under present circumstances, no supplies can be drawn.

_Ordered_, That the said memorial be referred to Mr. AMES, Mr. MADISON, and Mr. GILMAN, with instruction to examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

WEDNESDAY, February 18.

_Count de Grasses Heirs._

The House then went into a committee on a memorial from the four daughters of the late Admiral Count de Grasse. It was read with the report from a select committee, which proposed to give each of these ladies, who are now residing in Boston, and in indigent circumstances, a thousand dollars, in consideration of the important services rendered by their father to the United States. To this proposal the committee agreed, and the Chairman reported the resolution.

The House then took up the report.

Mr. MACON objected that though the claims of the petitioners were strong, yet they were not more so than those of multitudes of others. On the very day when we have come to a resolution to receive no more petitions from our fellow-citizens, we are going to give so large a sum at once to foreigners. He was aware that the Count de Grasse had done eminent services to America, and he felt them as much as any person, but he still saw no reason for preferring these petitioners, when there were likely a hundred of the officers of De Grasse, or of Rochambeau's army, that were in this country, and in want.

Mr. DEXTER said, that if ever there was a case where it would be proper to act first, and thereafter try to find reasons for what had been done, this was such a case.

The report was, on a division, agreed to by a great majority--sixty-one gentlemen rising in the affirmative. The resolution is in the following words:

_Resolved_, That, in consideration of the extraordinary services rendered the United States by the late Count de Grasse in the year one thousand seven hundred and eighty-one, on the urgent request of the Commander-in-chief of the American forces, beyond the term limited for his co-operation with the troops of the United States, there be allowed and paid to Amelie, Adelaide, Melanie, and Silvie de Grasse, daughters of the late Count de Grasse, respectively the sum of one thousand dollars each.

_Ordered_, That a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant to the said resolution, and that Mr. AMES, Mr. MADISON, and Mr. GILMAN, do prepare and bring in the same.

SATURDAY, February 21.

An engrossed bill authorizing the payment of four thousand dollars for the use of the daughters of the late Count de Grasse, was read the third time and passed.

TUESDAY, February 24.

_Case of Thomas Person and others._

It was moved that the House should go into consideration of the report of the select committee to whom had been referred a resolution of the House in relation to the back lands of North Carolina. The following is the resolution of the select committee:

"_Resolved_, That in case the President of the United
States shall think proper to enter into a treaty or
treaties with all or any of the Indian tribes claiming
lands within the territory south of the river Ohio, for the
extinguishment of their claims to all or any of the said
lands, the sum of ---- dollars be, and the same is hereby,
appropriated to the purpose of defraying the expenses of
any such treaty or treaties."

Mr. GOODHUE did not see that the United States had any concern to interfere in such a purchase: it was private property.

Mr. DAYTON explained that the petition of Thomas Person and others comprehended only two millions of acres. The resolution contemplated twenty millions. It will, when completed, enable the United States to protect the Choctaws and Chickasaws from the Creeks and Cherokees, if the latter should happen to attack them; and that they will attack the Chickasaws is not improbable, from assistance which the latter have given to the white people. Besides, the frontier will be capable of defence, at a much cheaper rate, in this way than at present it can be. It is now an irregular line. A peculiar circumstance, besides, will make the lands easy to be purchased. No Indian tribes reside on them. When the gentleman from Massachusetts considers these things, he will not object, since the United States will gain eighteen millions of acres by the transaction.

Mr. GOODHUE admitted the reasoning as to the eighteen millions, but still scrupled as to the rest.

Mr. SWIFT recommended that the Indian claim should in the mean time be extinguished.

Mr. MCDOWELL, in reply to Mr. GOODHUE, said that if the gentleman had attended to the reasonings formerly used on this subject, and which had occupied considerable time of the House during the present session, he could have been at no loss for understanding the propriety of this purchase being made by the United States.

A committee were named to bring in a bill, in terms of the resolution recommended by the select committee.

WEDNESDAY, February 25.

_Indian Lands in Georgia._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee to whom was referred so much of the message from the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, of the seventeenth instant, as relates to the disposition of Indian lands by the Legislature of the State of Georgia.

Mr. AMES said, that during the time when the National Debt bill was under discussion, he had attempted to get something introduced in favor of the new emission money creditors, but gentlemen always rose _en masse_ against any proposal that would tend to obstruct the progress of the bill. He now again urged that this affair might be taken into consideration. He knew he should be told of a standing rule of the House that the unfinished business must first be taken up. These creditors had waited for four years without redress, and the rules of the House ought to give way to common feeling and common sense. He therefore moved that the rule in question should be suspended.

The motion was negatived, and the House then went into a committee upon the second and remaining resolutions in the report of the select committee on the Message of the PRESIDENT.

The following is a copy of the third and fourth resolutions in this report:

"_Resolved_, That the President of the United States be
authorized, whenever claims under prior contracts may cease
to exist, to obtain a cession of the State of Georgia, of
their claim to the whole or any part of the land within the
present Indian boundaries; and that ---- dollars ought to
be appropriated to enable him to effect the same.

"_Resolved_, That all persons who shall be assembled, or
embodied in arms, on any lands belonging to Indians, out of
the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory
south of the river Ohio, for the purpose of warring against
the Indians, or committing depredations upon any Indian
town, or persons, or property, shall thereby become liable
and subject to the rules and articles of war, which are, or
shall be established for the government of the troops of
the United States."

After some discussion, the committee rose; the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. This was negatived--yeas 33, nays 35.

The House then took up the resolutions. Various amendments were proposed; and the last resolution, in particular, was objected to, as subjecting people to martial law.

Mr. WADSWORTH said, that from a trial by jury he had no hopes. There never had been one instance of a white man condemned and hanged by white men, on the frontier, for the murder of an Indian, since the first landing in America. There might be such a thing for the murder of an Indian, when they lived among the whites. That there ever had been such a thing he did not know. He had been told by judges, upon the frontier, that it was no matter what evidence of a murder of an Indian was brought. No jury would bring the criminal in guilty. It was but very lately that a cool and unprovoked murder had been committed on the borders of this State upon an Indian. The evidence was clear. Nobody pretended to doubt it. The judge gave an earnest charge to the jury; but all to no purpose; they found "not guilty."

Mr. SEDGWICK proposed an amendment to the last resolution, as follows:

"_Resolved_, That all persons who shall be assembled, or
embodied in arms, on any lands belonging to Indians, out of
the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory
south of the river Ohio, for the purpose of warring against
the Indians, or of committing depredations against any
Indian town, or persons, or property, shall thereby become
liable and subject to be taken and confined by the military
force of the United States, in such manner as to be made
amenable to, and triable by law."

_Ordered_, That the said motion be committed to Mr. SEDGWICK, Mr. MADISON, and Mr. HILLHOUSE.

FRIDAY, February 27.

_Indian Lands in Georgia._

The House then went into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. SHERBURNE in the chair, on the report of the select committee to whom had been referred the motion of the 25th instant, respecting such persons as shall be assembled, or embodied in arms, on any lands belonging to Indians, out of the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio. The resolutions are as follow:

"_Resolved_, That all persons who, unauthorized by law, may
be found in arms on any lands westward of the lines
established by treaties with the Indian tribes, shall, on
conviction thereof, forfeit a sum not exceeding ----
dollars, and be imprisoned not exceeding ---- months.

"_Resolved_, That it shall be lawful for the military force
of the United States to apprehend every person or persons
found in arms, as aforesaid, and him or them to convey to
the civil authority of the United States, within some of
the States, who shall, by such authority, be secured, to be
tried in manner hereafter expressed.

"_Resolved_, That every person apprehended, as aforesaid,
shall be tried in manner and form as is expressed in and by
the act, entitled, 'An act to regulate trade and
intercourse with the Indian tribes.'"

Several amendments were proposed and agreed to. At last Mr. VENABLE proposed one, which was, in substance, that persons should not be liable to the operation of the law who were in pursuit of Indians that had committed actual hostilities on the frontier.

Mr. SEDGWICK paid many compliments to Mr. VENABLE, as a sound lawyer, who certainly knew that, by the inherent rights of nature, every man was to pursue and punish those who had robbed him. This was implied in the bill, and was a part of the law of nature, so that there could be no use for its insertion.

Mr. VENABLE, in reply, declared that he was not so sound a lawyer as the gentleman supposed him to be. He was not so sound a lawyer as to discover that there was any such implication in the bill as the gentleman stated. Neither was he a sound enough lawyer to see, that, if his amendment was really implied in the bill, there could be any harm in having it expressed. At present he could discover no such implication. On the contrary, he saw very plainly, that, by the resolution as it now stood, a man whose family had been murdered or carried off by the savages, might, while pursuing them, be stopped and sent to jail. Mr. V., from the admission of Mr. SEDGWICK himself, insisted on the propriety of adopting his amendment.

Mr. HILLHOUSE objected to the permission of armed individuals crossing the line, upon any pretence whatever. What use was there for expending millions every year in defence of the frontier people, if they were to be at liberty to cross the Indian line as often as they pleased, and to do what was to all intents and purposes carrying on war? If they will fight, let us recall our forces and leave them to fight for themselves. Are they, for the stealing of a horse, or some such thing, to cross the line in armed bodies, and act just as they please? Mr. H. utterly denied the doctrine admitted by Mr. SEDGWICK, that a man was authorized to chastise by his own hand those who had injured him. Was he to be both judge and executioner in his own case? No such thing.

Mr. GREENUP said, that, in coming to Congress every year, he was obliged to pass over territories belonging to Indians, and he always thought it necessary to carry a gun. He did not see, by the resolution as it stood, why the military officers of the United States might not stop him, as well as other people.

Mr. MOORE objected to the clause altogether. It is usual for people on the frontiers to send out parties over the line to watch the Indians, and when they are coming to give notice, that the country may be prepared for their reception. Now, these people may be seized by your officers.

Mr. FINDLAY imagined it would be the best way to declare that there shall be no frontier. It had been said by Mr. HILLHOUSE that the United States might withdraw their forces, and leave the frontier settlers to defend themselves. Did he imagine that, as it is, they are not kept in a perpetual state of alarm, of exertion, and of danger? There has not been a harvest for many years past where the people have not been called off from their labors, and, to their very great loss, to protect the frontier. This resolution not to allow pursuit, would be inviting the Indians with a witness.

Mr. SEDGWICK said, that this amendment, in reality, destroyed all that had been done or intended. No military officer, after such an amendment, will run the risk of taking a man up. The prisoner has only to say, "I am in pursuit of Indians," and then he must be set at liberty; for, in the wilderness, no evidence can be had to contradict him. The amendment, therefore, was a _coup de grace_ to the whole affair. Mr. S. said he was personally extremely hurt at the constant complaints of the inefficiency of the defence afforded on the frontier, which cost annually so much to Government.

Mr. BLOUNT thought that the best way would be, to let it be known that the whites were authorized to pursue the Indians into their own country, and then they would stand more in awe. He mentioned a circumstance that happened within memory, to prove how much the Indians feared a serious attack, and how well they remembered a serious chastisement. Mr. B. stated that some Indians had made an incursion, and were stealing cattle belonging to the army, at a block-house. One of them was most deservedly shot, and the soldier had his pay stopped.

Mr. HILLHOUSE said, the more that he thought of this amendment, the more he saw its mischievous consequences. It went to invert all the laws that had been made for the protection of the Indians; and, instead of being a bill to protect them from the whites, the resolutions would produce a bill to protect the whites from them.

Mr. SMILIE objected to Mr. SEDGWICK's having threatened that the army of the United States should be withdrawn from the frontiers. [He had made some other advances against that gentleman, to which Mr. SEDGWICK answered not loud enough to be heard; but at this last, he arose, and said that he would not sit still to hear himself thus quoted for affirmations of which he had never uttered a single word.]

Mr. FITZSIMONS really hoped that the House would not agree to this amendment. It would totally defeat all the effects proposed by the bill. It had been said, that if a man had his family murdered, and he was in pursuit of the murderers, he might be stopped by a military officer, and sent to jail. The answer was, that if the officer refused to join him in the pursuit, he would lose his commission. He should be sorry if those resolutions, which had cost so much time and labor to the House, were thus to be thrown away.

The amendment was, on a division, carried--yeas 36, nays 28. The committee then rose.

SATURDAY, February 28.

_Indian Trading Houses._

It was moved that the House should resolve itself into a committee on the bill for establishing trading houses for the purpose of supplying the Indian nations within the territory of the United States. This was done accordingly, Mr. SHERBURNE in the chair.

Mr. GILES then moved to strike out the first section.

Mr. GOODHUE wished to move that the committee rise; to which Mr. GILES agreed. Mr. GOODHUE then said, that his reason for this motion was, the inattention of members to the business before them. To attempt going through the bill at present was a perfect farce. He was satisfied that the bill would never go through this session. He did not, for his own part, yet know whether it was proper or not.

Mr. PARKER said, that the bill had been long enough before the House for the gentleman from Massachusetts to have made himself acquainted with its contents and its merits. He vindicated the principle of the bill, as tending to conciliate the affections of a distressed and unhappy people, and as it might likewise prevent the expenses of a war with them. France, Britain, and Spain, had adopted this policy, and found the good effects of it. He considered the bill as of the utmost consequence, and, thinking so, he should use his utmost influence to get it passed. The expense proposed was not great, as the affair was only experimental.

Mr. MONTGOMERY was of the same opinion with the gentleman who spoke last. He thought that the Indians had common sense enough not to quit allies who supplied them with articles which they wanted, till we also made some effectual establishment of that kind. The member went on the same ground with the gentleman who spoke last.

Mr. BOUDINOT thought that the reason given by Mr. GOODHUE for moving that the committee should rise, viz: that gentlemen would not attend to their duty, was the worst imaginable. What did the House meet for at all? It was the duty of the Chair to compel them to mind their business. Mr. B. then referred to something which had been said by Mr. SWIFT, who had been up just before Mr. BOUDINOT. Mr. B. in reply to this gentleman, said, that he would not wish to press the bill this session if members did not think it proper. He was willing, if agreeable, to refer the matter for one year to the PRESIDENT. But there never would nor could be a complete peace till something of this kind was done. The PRESIDENT himself had told us as much.

Mr. GILES said, that the bill could not be got through this session. He was willing to take the question either in the first way that he had moved it, or in any other. This was a most improper time of the session to bring it in.

Mr. MURRAY hoped that the committee would seriously attend to the first clause in the bill, and would not rise. He felt the shortness of the time, but he was willing to devote to-morrow (Sunday) to this subject, and he trusted that the importance of it would give the employment a solemnity not inconsistent with the day. Without a bill to establish a well-guarded intercourse with the Indians, the frontier policy will be unsystematic and despicable. To complete the system, it appeared to him that three great objects are to be embraced: 1st. Force to protect the frontier from Indian invasion--for this the Military Establishment is made. 2d. A regulation, by law, that shall restrain the frontier people from predatory invasion into the Indian country, carrying law and settlement hand in hand. 3d. The establishment of trading houses under the influence of the two first parts of the system, for the purpose of conciliating the Indians by supplying their wants, and detaching their habits of trade and their affections from a foreign nation. With these three points embraced in one system, he had no doubt but their co-operation would produce the great object, peace on the frontier. Without the last, the other parts of the system would be totally inefficient.

Mr. HILLHOUSE said, that the House ought to begin at the right end of the subject, by reversing the vote which the committee passed yesterday, authorizing the frontier people to pass the line in pursuit of the Indians as often as they pleased. If this was allowed, it would be impossible ever to keep peace.

On a division, shall the committee now rise? it was determined in the affirmative--yeas 35, nays 31.

The question was then put by the SPEAKER, Shall the committee have leave to sit again? It passed in the affirmative--yeas 34, nays 33.

But it was presently remarked, that some gentlemen had risen both in the yeas and nays; others had been without the bar. The question was, therefore, taken over again, and determined in the negative--yeas 36, nays 41. The bill is, therefore, thrown out.

_Indian Lands in Georgia._

The House proceeded to consider the resolution and amendments thereto, reported yesterday from the Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee to whom was referred a motion of the 25th instant, respecting such persons as shall be assembled or embodied in arms on any lands belonging to Indians out of the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio: Whereupon,

The first resolution being read, in the words following, to wit:

"_Resolved_, That all persons who, unauthorized by law, and
with hostile intent, may be found in arms on any lands
allotted or secured to the Indians by treaties between the
United States and any Indian tribes, shall, on conviction
thereof, forfeit a sum not exceeding ---- dollars, and be
imprisoned not exceeding ---- months."

And the amendment thereto, reported by the Committee of the whole House, to add to the end thereof the words, "unless it shall be in immediate pursuit of Indians, who shall have recently committed hostilities."

When the question was about to be taken on it, Mr. VENABLE rose and pointed out the difference of opinion between two gentlemen who were both opposed to his amendment. One of them (Mr. SEDGWICK) had maintained that, when individual Indians, unauthorized by the rest of their tribe, crossed the line and committed depredations, a settler was, by the law of nations, authorized to pursue them across the line and to retaliate, and that this was implied in the bill. Mr. HILLHOUSE had materially differed from him, and agreed with Mr. VENABLE, in supposing that the person so pursuing across the line was punishable by the resolution as it stood, without the amendment. He then reminded the House that this frontier line was, perhaps, fifteen hundred miles long. The Indians may come over any part of it, while the citizens of the United States are not to be allowed to cross it one mile in pursuit. Even a man in pursuit of savages who may have carried off his wife and children, may be stopped. The amendment he regarded as essential. Military officers may judge on the spot whether such persons whom they meet beyond the line, in pursuit of Indians, are within the sense of the act or not.

Mr. AMES denied that the resolution as it first stood took away the right of a man to pursue the Indians, in order to recover his wife and children. But the amendment of Mr. VENABLE went to legalize all those acts of violence and revenge, that, for a century past, have deluged the frontier with blood.